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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/17/2006 12:18:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 12:19:41 PM EDT by TravisM1]
I have a few question about HK pistols. I have handled the full-size USPs (never fired), and have always wanted one. I'm in the market for a new handgun, and the USP is in the running. The other pistols I'm considering are from Glock (17 or 21) and Browning (Hi-Power). I would like a 9mm, as I already have a reliable 1911 in 45acp, but I wouldn't be upset about either a Glock 21 or a USP 45.

So, here are my questions.
Are HK pistols that much better than others to demand the higher prices? If so, Why?

Whats with all the Variants? IIRC, V1 allows cocked and locked carry, which I would like. Are all variants produced now?

In a CDNN catalog I have, they list a USP 45 for $672, and a USP 45 Tactical for $849. Assuming the days of the $849 Tactical arent long gone, is it worth the money for target sights, a threaded barrel and a different trigger?
ETA- I'm a decent shot with a handgun, but I dont plan on a can anytime soon, and the sights and trigger would be the only real benefits for my uses.

Thanks for any replies.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:46:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
I have a few question about HK pistols. I have handled the full-size USPs (never fired), and have always wanted one. I'm in the market for a new handgun, and the USP is in the running. The other pistols I'm considering are from Glock (17 or 21) and Browning (Hi-Power). I would like a 9mm, as I already have a reliable 1911 in 45acp, but I wouldn't be upset about either a Glock 21 or a USP 45.

So, here are my questions.
Are HK pistols that much better than others to demand the higher prices? If so, Why?

HK makes great hanguns. If they are better than others, that will be up to you. Hk is my favorite gun maker for Rifles, and hanguns but I enjoy my Glocks and SIG 220 just as much as the USPs.
As for price HK is spendy, but so is are other gun makers like SIG, and Kimber. You can find a used HK for a great price. I piad $525 for a USP 45 with 4 mags.


Whats with all the Variants? IIRC, V1 allows cocked and locked carry, which I would like. Are all variants produced now?

There are 9 variants...I think. Some are DAO, some are for left hand shooters, but variant 1 is the most popular.

In a CDNN catalog I have, they list a USP 45 for $672, and a USP 45 Tactical for $849. Assuming the days of the $849 Tactical arent long gone, is it worth the money for target sights, a threaded barrel and a different trigger?

To me , the HK Tactical is worth more than a standard USP 45. I have both, but the Tactical is a real shooter. The target sights and match trigger are a big improvement. Plus the Tactical uses a O-ring like the Mark23 which improve accuracy.
Also the threaded barrel is great if you ever want to buy a suppressor.


ETA- I'm a decent shot with a handgun, but I dont plan on a can anytime soon, and the sights and trigger would be the only real benefits for my uses.

Thanks for any replies.



Chris
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:54:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
I have a few question about HK pistols. I have handled the full-size USPs (never fired), and have always wanted one. I'm in the market for a new handgun, and the USP is in the running. The other pistols I'm considering are from Glock (17 or 21) and Browning (Hi-Power). I would like a 9mm, as I already have a reliable 1911 in 45acp, but I wouldn't be upset about either a Glock 21 or a USP 45.

So, here are my questions.
Are HK pistols that much better than others to demand the higher prices? If so, Why?


IMO, yes, they are. For one thing you can always count on the USP being 100% reliable right out of the box and also being more accurate than you are. The shooter is the limiting factor on how well a USP shoots 99.5% of the time. You do not need to do any fine tuning, they are just about perfect from the get go. The HK also uses a fully supported chamber so while you can KB any pistol, the unsupported chamber of the Glock will let the case head fail long before it will fail in a USP. If you only shoot factory that is not really a concern, but if you are a handloader then the USP IMO is a much better choice. If you load hot your brass will last much longer in the USP over the Glock.


What's with all the Variants? IIRC, V1 allows cocked and locked carry, which I would like. Are all variants produced now?

All variants are still produced. What's up with that you say? Choice. The USP allows the shooter to tailor the way the pistol functions and shoots to the individual shooter. Not the one size fits all of the Glock. With the Glock you pretty much have a choice of different pull weights but that is all.
If you want safety and decock as well as SA/DA, V1 and V2 is the choice.
If you want safety, but no decock and still want to carry cocked and locked and SA/DA, then V9 and V10 is your flavor.
If you want no safety to worry about taking off and do not want to carry cocked and locked, still want SA/DA and only the decock, V3 and V4 is the logical choice.
If you want DAO but still would prefer a safety, V5 and V6 are the numbers you want.
DAO with no safety, V7 and V8 (V8 not imported, night sights are too powerful) get the nod.
If you want a lighter DAO then you have three LEM triggers, 8, 7, and 5 pound pulls.
Variety is what makes the USP so great. And if you decide you don't like the variant you have, at most $100 will put you into any variant you want between 1 and 10 and $150 will get you into the LEMs. If going from the LEM to any other variant it will set you back about $220.


In a CDNN catalog I have, they list a USP 45 for $672, and a USP 45 Tactical for $849. Assuming the days of the $849 Tactical aren’t long gone, is it worth the money for target sights, a threaded barrel and a different trigger?
ETA- I'm a decent shot with a handgun, but I don’t plan on a can anytime soon, and the sights and trigger would be the only real benefits for my uses.

Thanks for any replies.


IMO yes, the Tactical is worth the extra money. If you add up all the extras that come with the Tac it is something like $450 worth of extras that you only pay about $200 extra for when you get the Tac. The trigger alone is worth the extra money IMO. The sights, threaded barrel, and o-ring barrel to aid in consistent lock-up (therefore increasing accuracy) are just icing on the cake.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:13:06 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies, fellas.


As for price HK is spendy, but so is are other gun makers like SIG, and Kimber. You can find a used HK for a great price. I piad $525 for a USP 45 with 4 mags.


Thats cool. I dont mind paying for quality.


To me , the HK Tactical is worth more than a standard USP 45. I have both, but the Tactical is a real shooter. The target sights and match trigger are a big improvement. Plus the Tactical uses a O-ring like the Mark23 which improve accuracy.
Also the threaded barrel is great if you ever want to buy a suppressor.



I know nothing about this O-ring of which you speak. I know they have one, and it makes me feel like a nit-wit for having to ask, but how does it have anything to do with accuracy? Do they use it as a barrel bushing? I would think this would be prone to failure.


IMO, yes, they are. For one thing you can always count on the USP being 100% reliable right out of the box and also being more accurate than you are. The shooter is the limiting factor on how well a USP shoots 99.5% of the time. You do not need to do any fine tuning, they are just about perfect from the get go. The HK also uses a fully supported chamber so while you can KB any pistol, the unsupported chamber of the Glock will let the case head fail long before it will fail in a USP. If you only shoot factory that is not really a concern, but if you are a handloader then the USP IMO is a much better choice. If you load hot your brass will last much longer in the USP over the Glock.



While I'm not a handloader, I can certainly appreciate the benefits of a fully-supported chamber.
This reply truly helps simplify my choice, because I dont want something I'm going to have to fiddle-fuck around with to have it work right. Conversely, I love my 1911. Its fitted tight, and super accurate with ball ammo. But, its still really persnickitty about what kinds of ammo it likes. I'd like to have something a little more "load and go", if you know what I mean. I was also hoping to hear it would be more reliable than I am.


All variants are still produced. What's up with that you say? Choice. The USP allows the shooter to tailor the way the pistol functions and shoots to the individual shooter. Not the one size fits all of the Glock. With the Glock you pretty much have a choice of different pull weights but that is all.
If you want safety and decock as well as SA/DA, V1 and V2 is the choice.
If you want safety, but no decock and still want to carry cocked and locked and SA/DA, then V9 and V10 is your flavor.
If you want no safety to worry about taking off and do not want to carry cocked and locked, still want SA/DA and only the decock, V3 and V4 is the logical choice.
If you want DAO but still would prefer a safety, V5 and V6 are the numbers you want.
DAO with no safety, V7 and V8 (V8 not imported, night sights are too powerful) get the nod.
If you want a lighter DAO then you have three LEM triggers, 8, 7, and 5 pound pulls.
Variety is what makes the USP so great. And if you decide you don't like the variant you have, at most $100 will put you into any variant you want between 1 and 10 and $150 will get you into the LEMs. If going from the LEM to any other variant it will set you back about $220.



Thats a lot of options. I would like a safety with no De-Cocker, SA/DA, so I guess Im looking for V9 and V10. Correct? Not too interested in the LEMs and the De-Cock models.

In fact, the lack of an external mechanical safety on the Glock is a big minus in my opinion. I know about the 3 safeties involving the trigger, but to quote Jeff Cooper, "Having a safety on a trigger is like having the combination on the door of the safe".


IMO yes, the Tactical is worth the extra money. If you add up all the extras that come with the Tac it is something like $450 worth of extras that you only pay about $200 extra for when you get the Tac. The trigger alone is worth the extra money IMO. The sights, threaded barrel, and o-ring barrel to aid in consistent lock-up (therefore increasing accuracy) are just icing on the cake.





I saw that the one in the CDNN book come with a couple mags, a zipper-up case, and some other accesories.
Then I guess I should shop for a Tactical if I can find one. What is the going rate for the Tactical, and do they make it in 9mm as well as 45? As I said earlier, I'm not against another 45, but I would like a 9mm. If I cant find a Tactical, are the V9/10 common? There arent many gun shops locally here that carry many handguns- mostly hunting rifles and shotguns.

Thanks again for the advice.



Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:10:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 6:16:16 PM EDT by Big-Bore]
The o-ring does act like a bushing, keeping the barrel centered in the slide from shot to shot and increasing accuracy. Unlike a steel bushing though, it cleans itself and is not prone to causing a jam if dirt gets wedged in between a tight fitting bushing and the barrel. The o-ring will wipe the dirt away and still maintain its effectiveness. Also, a single o-ring (it comes with 5) is good for 20,000 rounds with care and when worn out, for $5 it can be replaced and barrel/slide fit will be as good as new. The cost for a new precision fit bushing that gives the accuracy the o-ring gives as well as being jam free would cost a lot more than $5.

Correct, safety only, no decock would be V9 for right hand, V10 for lefties.

CDNN has the Tac for $849 and Bachman Pawn and Gun in Dallas Texas has them for $899 (Gun List, GunsAmerica) so they can be found for about $900 if you look. The true Tactical comes in only .45 and .40. HK does make the 9SD but it is not a Tactical and will not say Tactical on the slide. While it has the match sights and threaded barrel, it does not have the o-ring barrel or the match trigger. Of all the features the Tac offers IMO the match trigger is the one "must have" item. Of course you can add the match trigger to any recent manufactured (aprox KF on) 9mm and .40 full size USP (all .45F can have the trigger added) but getting the trigger ($125), sights ($130), soft case ($75), cleaning kit ($25), and the o-ring threaded barrel ($295, about $75 over the price of a standard barrel) makes the extra $200 you spend for the Tac quite a bargain.

The most common variant you will find on the shelf is the V1 and special ordering a V9 is not a good idea (dealers tend to make you pay near full price for a special order and the wait can be interminable). Good news is that to swap from a V1 to a V9 all you need is a $10 detent plate and five minutes and you are good to go. A monkey with 10 thumbs can replace the detent plate in nothing flat.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:23:19 PM EDT
Thanks for the info.
I guess the O-ring would work in that case.
Are the Tactical models labeled with a variation? I mean, can you get the Tactical with or without the De-Cocker, or DAO, or anything else I should know before I go ahead and order one?

If I'm paying out the money, I might as well get the most for it, and the Tactical 45 does seem to be the best bang for the buck.

Thanks again.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:36:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 9:37:44 AM EDT by gudel]
Why is it okay that Sig charges $750-$780 for the P226 Rail, while USP9 is around $700?
I thought Sig should be cheaper as they're slide made in the US while HK USPs are totally imported.
After import taxes, Which do you think a cheaper weapon? Someone answer me on this one.

Why is it okay that Colt charges $750 for their basic 1911 while USP45 is around that price? Same thing with Springfield and some of their 1911.
I can tell you that USP45 will work right out of the box 100% guaranteed. I should know, I got 2 USP45 and I got a Colt and Springfield myself.

I really don't get it when people complain about HK prices.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:38:47 AM EDT
I wasnt saying it was OK for the others to be that price. I was curious if HKs are worth the prices they bring, and trying to figure out what I wanted.

I wasn't complaining. Sorry you didn't "get it".
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:37:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
Thanks for the info.
I guess the O-ring would work in that case.
Are the Tactical models labeled with a variation? I mean, can you get the Tactical with or without the De-Cocker, or DAO, or anything else I should know before I go ahead and order one?

If I'm paying out the money, I might as well get the most for it, and the Tactical 45 does seem to be the best bang for the buck.

Thanks again.



Yes, you can get the Tactical in all the variants you can get the normal USP in. The vast majority of them will be V1 but it will not hurt to specify or check before ordering.
Remember this though, it will take a lot less time to go with a V1 and do a variant change than it will to order a specific variant. To place a special order with HK can take months to fill. Or have your dealer check with various distributors to see if they have the variant you want in stock.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:06:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 5:08:50 PM EDT by MrMurphy]

Originally Posted By TravisM1:
I wasnt saying it was OK for the others to be that price. I was curious if HKs are worth the prices they bring, and trying to figure out what I wanted.

I wasn't complaining. Sorry you didn't "get it".



As a relatively new USP 45 tactical owner (Nov 2005) I had the exact same questions and concerns as you did. Someone told me that life is too short to compromise on your guns. This is especially important considering what hoops I have to jump thru just to own a hand gun in MY state. The USP will eat ANYTHING. The safety features are amazing. You can carry it cocked and locked like a 1911 but unlike a out of the box 1911 it will eat anything. IMO they are much more worth the money then say a Colt AR over a Bushmaster or RRA. If the USP fits in your hand and thats a big IF then buy it you won't believe how nice it is to own 1.

Check out the EE I think BigBore and someone else has some nice deals on USPs.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:14:44 PM EDT
MrMurphy, thanks for the input.

I do plan to go with the USP 45 Tactical. I just dont know where I'm going to buy yet. My FFL guy has done some work for me before involving CDNN, so I know they have his info on-file.

Regardless of where I do buy, I'm going to try to get the V9, but if all I can get is the V1 I wont be heartbroken.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:49:10 PM EDT
Check out this web page for info regarding the various variants. Bookmark this, it's got a lot of interesting information about HKs.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:02:53 PM EDT
To go from V1 to V9 takes all of five minutes and a $10 detent plate. Very easy to do.
Instructions are here.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 5:35:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 5:37:57 PM EDT by TravisM1]
Would I need to follow that entire procedure, or just to the part where the detent plate is pulled out, and reverse the instructions with the new plate?

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:34:45 AM EDT
All you'd need to remove is the detent plate, nothing else.

And if you aren't sold on the USP by now, it also shares the grip angle as the 1911. It should point very close to the way your 1911 does. Not as high or as low as other guns will in comparison to what you are used to.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:31:34 AM EDT
Not to hijack but I have some questions to add as well. Do you have to have the Tactical model to be able to have the o-ring barrel or can you just take a regular USP and drop it in as well? I want a 9mm fullsize with threaded barrel and match trigger but I don't want the adjustable sights because I'm planning on getting night sights for it. What is the best route for me to take? Buy the regular 9mm and get the trigger and barrel put in? or buy the tactical 9 and just get the trigger put in? Also, I need to get mine changed to Variant 2, where can I get this done at?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:01:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rmdugan84:
Not to hijack but I have some questions to add as well. Do you have to have the Tactical model to be able to have the o-ring barrel or can you just take a regular USP and drop it in as well? I want a 9mm full-size with threaded barrel and match trigger but I don't want the adjustable sights because I'm planning on getting night sights for it. What is the best route for me to take? Buy the regular 9mm and get the trigger and barrel put in? or buy the tactical 9 and just get the trigger put in? Also, I need to get mine changed to Variant 2, where can I get this done at?


Here are the figures and you can do the math the way you want it.
Price of the USP 9SD (there IS NO TACTICAL 9mm) about $850 (no match trigger, no o-ring barrel)
Price of match trigger installed by HK about $150
Price of sights, normal fixed night sights about $100 +-$20
Price of threaded barrel for normal USP about $240 and it will not have the o-ring either. I know of nobody who makes an o-ringed threaded barrel for the 9mm USP. Several have looked but Jarvis and CCF do not o-ring their 9mm full size barrels so far as I know.
Since the 9mm threaded barrel has no o-ring you can drop it in any full size USP. If it did have an o-ring you can still drop it in but you need to polish the barrel opening in the slide as outlined on CCF's web page. Easy to do but necessary because any burr on the barrel opening will eat o-rings real quick.
The new control lever to switch from V1 to V2 will cost about $60 in the full size. HK can put it in the same time you do the trigger install or using the same site I listed above you can install it yourself. It is a little more complicated than the detent install but not that much. Or, any smith worth a damn can do it. They would not need to be a special HK armorer, after all, a hammer swap (or CL swap) is not rocket surgery. In the Expert HK includes two hammers and the directions for swapping them out so even they do not consider a big deal.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 3:35:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:

Originally Posted By rmdugan84:
Not to hijack but I have some questions to add as well. Do you have to have the Tactical model to be able to have the o-ring barrel or can you just take a regular USP and drop it in as well? I want a 9mm full-size with threaded barrel and match trigger but I don't want the adjustable sights because I'm planning on getting night sights for it. What is the best route for me to take? Buy the regular 9mm and get the trigger and barrel put in? or buy the tactical 9 and just get the trigger put in? Also, I need to get mine changed to Variant 2, where can I get this done at?


Here are the figures and you can do the math the way you want it.
Price of the USP 9SD (there IS NO TACTICAL 9mm) about $850 (no match trigger, no o-ring barrel)
Price of match trigger installed by HK about $150
Price of sights, normal fixed night sights about $100 +-$20
Price of threaded barrel for normal USP about $240 and it will not have the o-ring either. I know of nobody who makes an o-ringed threaded barrel for the 9mm USP. Several have looked but Jarvis and CCF do not o-ring their 9mm full size barrels so far as I know.
Since the 9mm threaded barrel has no o-ring you can drop it in any full size USP. If it did have an o-ring you can still drop it in but you need to polish the barrel opening in the slide as outlined on CCF's web page. Easy to do but necessary because any burr on the barrel opening will eat o-rings real quick.
The new control lever to switch from V1 to V2 will cost about $60 in the full size. HK can put it in the same time you do the trigger install or using the same site I listed above you can install it yourself. It is a little more complicated than the detent install but not that much. Or, any smith worth a damn can do it. They would not need to be a special HK armorer, after all, a hammer swap (or CL swap) is not rocket surgery. In the Expert HK includes two hammers and the directions for swapping them out so even they do not consider a big deal.



Thanks for the info Big-Bore
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 5:56:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
All you'd need to remove is the detent plate, nothing else.

And if you aren't sold on the USP by now, it also shares the grip angle as the 1911. It should point very close to the way your 1911 does. Not as high or as low as other guns will in comparison to what you are used to.



I'm sold. Its just a matter of finding one after I get my bonus next month.
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