Another thread on pocket autos as BUGs or summer time / light clothing CCW guns got me thinking about something.

380 Auto's big disadvantage is that, in order to get the needed penetration, you have to carry ball ammunition.  Hollowpoints will expand but will tend to underpenetrate.

The problem with going a pocket sized 9mm Luger is that you often lose the weight advantage of a 380.  Reason being is that 9mm Luger handguns have to be locked breach, where as 380s can be direct blowback.  9x19 handguns will also have larger grips to accommodate the longer 9x19 cartridge.

I think there may be a solution.  9x18 Makarov.  With the right loads, 9x18 Makarov is capable of 12 inches or more penetration with expanding hollowpoints.  Unfortunately, currently available 9x18 loads suffer the same problem as 380 loads: you can get insufficient penetration with expansion, or no expansion and sufficient penetration.  A sufficient SD hollowpoint load is, however, possible.  Silver Bear used to make a heavy bullet load for it, it was either 115gr or 120gr, can't remember offhand, that would expand nicely AND reach the minimum penetration requirement.  For whatever reason, Silver Bear discontinued the load.  Probably sales weren't good enough.  My guess is that most Makarov chambered handguns are shot recreationally and not carried, although I know of some folks that carry the Polish 9x18 pistols and seem pretty happy with them.

One of the beautiful things about 9x18 handguns, however, is that they can be direct blowback, just like the 380, and 9x18 has a meaningful ballistic advantage over 380.  9x18 also has a virtually identical cartridge length as the 380, so no change in grip size is needed.

My proposal is not simply to re-introduce more effective 9x18 SD loads, but to simultaneously introduce a new production pocket auto, the same size an LCP or P3AT, chambered for 9x18.  Possibly, later, it might be feasible to produce conversion barrels for existing 380 Autos (in most cases, 9x18 should be able to fed from a standard 380 magazine.  I know that the CZ-82 and CZ-83 pistols are completely identical, even to the point of using the same magazines, the only difference between the two being the barrel).

A 9x18 loaded to 800 to 850 fps or so driving a 105 to 115 grain JHP should satisfy the penetration requirement and still get good expansion.  This would give the owner of a pocket 9x18 handgun performance on par with light, 115gr 9mm loads in a pistol that can still be pocket carried.

how about the disadvantage with smaller semi-autos get, the less reliable they tend to become...

its not necessarily about the ammo performance (shot placement, training, reliability, user, etc) being more important for some; its just got to work when it comes down to it

but i do like your idea

I do agree with the reliability issue on pocket autos...which is why if I ever pocket carry, it's probably going to be a J-frame or Ruger LCR.  But some people really like pocket autos, and they are of much higher quality these days than they were even a few years ago.

Need to get manufacturers to produce guns in that caliber.  They already are set up for the 380.  While your logic is sound I doubt it will ever happen.

While I have doubts, I will hold out hope for it.

P-64 is $180.  With $20 worth of springs, it's exactly what you're talking about.

Is it elegant?  No.
Is it tough to find ammunition for?  Yes.
Is it as good as a 9mm Luger?  No way.

But it's under $200 and you can be armed, anywhere, all the time, in any clothing.  There's value to the economy and simplicity of it.  A lot of people carry Maks and their clones.


You can argue that the $800 and higher Kahrs, Walther PPS, etc. are 'better' guns but even still, they're a shade too large for pocket carry and they're 4-5 times as expensive.

Personally, I just put up with the discomfort issues of IWB.  8+1 9mm is where it's at.  If I had to pocket carry, I'd be OK with .380.


It's also worth considering that the .380 pocket pistols of today already have some very snappy recoil.  You go putting 10-15% more energy in there and it's only going to make it worse.

Lastly, the CorBon .380 loading is already pretty beefy.  Some of the others not quite as much, but it seems that ammunition technology is catching up with the popularity of pocket autos.

That said, I'd love to see some more options out there and modern, American-made 9x18 pocket autos would be a great choice.

My 2 cents.

This is my opinion as well. I really like my Makarov. Interesting idea.

I have 1000 rounds of the 115 Silver Bear 9X18 JHP.

Works fine in my Bulgarian Mak, sucks in my CZ 82.

I have long been an advocate of a modern design 380 being offered in 9X18.

However, no American manufacturer will ever do it.

What a pity old cold war prejudices are.

Agreed.  The little Mak cartridge can actually do what the 380 was designed to do in the same sized guns.

Maybe I need to start rounding up investors.

Get er done

I think you have this backwards.  The really light 380's (LCP, P3AT) are locked breach.  Blowback guns have to have really heavy slides and springs because that's all that keeps the breech closed until the pressure drops.  
You say that 9x18 will feed from a .380 magazine.  I've heard there are .380 conversions for Mak's.  How about converting an LCP or P3AT to 9x18?  Beats the hell out of building a gun from the ground up.

The P64 is an excellent little pistol once you put Wolf springs in it.  It's reliable and like most fixed barrel pistols, it can be surprisingly accurate.  I've got 3 of them, one converted to DAO mode, and I haven't had a single failure with any of them.  I've only fired a few hundred rounds through each of them, and almost all FMJ with a couple mags of the Hornady hollow points.  It's not a pleasant little gun to shoot with the stock grips and after a few mags your hand is going to be stinging and/or rubbed raw in places.





I'd love another 115 grain hollow point in 9x18 but I'm not sure I'd buy another 9x18 pistol since I've got 5 of them.

 

The Colt pony and the new Sig P238 are 1911 style, locked breech. Learn to reload and make your own .380 loads 115's @ 825 fps and staying under 16,000 cup should not be hard to obtain with the right powder.

I reload on a Hornady Lock n Load progressive press  That's not the point.  The point is that most people DON'T reload, and one thing seriously lacking in the pocket pistol calibers is a load that penetrates sufficiently and still expands.

Given the popularity of 380 pistols, I have to wonder why a SD load in the 115gr range hasn't been made.  There's clearly some problem with doing so or it would've been done.

the heavy bullet may not stabilize with a 380's standard twist rate possibly. I think for a very small penalty in size and weight many of the designs currently holding 380 could be built up for 9mm. or go for a rorhbaugh-this is the exact thing you are talking about- a pocket size 380 in 9mm cal.

I'd be in for one for sure... I'm toying with the idea of picking up a couple CZ-82's to keep around due to their cost.

hell yeah, Id prefer a mak round to my .380

As nice as it would be I don't see any handgun manufactures making their guns in a commie cartridge. I started a thread about a modern 7.62x25 and as nice as that would be also I don't see it happening but I guess you never know.

I defiantly would not one in the size or design of a P3AT . My P3AT was a pain to shoot quickly and accurately but was very pocket-able hence its allure like the LCP. I now have a P238 that is well more suited for the cartridge and almost just as small with a much better trigger. Make a P238 in 9x18 Mak and then I'd be interested.

It's an interesting caliber.   But I prefer single actions.   Odds of getting a US manufactured double-action in that caliber are slim.   Odds of a single action are probably 0.   It's all LCP/TCP/P3AT at the moment.