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Posted: 8/8/2017 4:07:48 PM EDT
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/08/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-sig-sauer-offers-voluntary-trigger-upgrade-p320-pistols/

BREAKING: SIG SAUER Offers Voluntary Trigger Upgrade for P320 Pistols




In response to a variety of reports of SIG SAUER P320 pistols discharging when dropped, the company announced that it “developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability and overall safety including drop performance.” SIG is offering these upgrades to all P320 owners.

The M17 pistol selected by the US Army as its new sidearm of choice is not covered by this offer, because it already has all of the following:

– Reduced-mass fire control components (trigger, sear, etc.)

– New sear housing (reduces sensation of “double click” during trigger pull)

– Trigger disconnect (disengages the trigger bar if the slide is not fully in battery)

To be clear, the version of the trigger that has passed myriad safety testing protocols and the one submitted for MHS testing is the version currently in commercially-available P320s. Upgrades were engineered subsequently, rolled into the M17s that are now shipping, and will appear as standard in commercial P320s in the future.

For owners of current, commercial P320s, SIG is offering voluntary upgrades. This does, indeed, greatly mitigate the specific drop safety vulnerability that has been identified. More details will come next week. For now…

Here’s SIG’s press release:

SIG SAUER Issues Voluntary Upgrade of P320 Pistol

   P320 pistol meets requirements for industry and government safety standards; performance enhancements optimize function, safety, and reliability.

   Newington, NH (August 8, 2017) – The P320 meets U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) / Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI®), National Institute of Justice (NIJ), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies.

   The design of the SIG SAUER P320 overcomes the most significant safety concern in striker-fired pistols today: the practice of pressing the trigger for disassembly. This can be performed with a round in the chamber which has resulted in numerous incidents of property damage, physical injury, and death. The disassembly process of the P320, however, uses a take-down lever rather than pressing the trigger, eliminating the possibility of discharge during the disassembly process.

   Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.

   As a result of input from law enforcement, government and military customers, SIG has developed a number of enhancements in function, reliability, and overall safety including drop performance. SIG SAUER is offering these enhancements to its customers. Details of this program will be available at sigsauer.com on Monday, August 14, 2017.


   The M17 variant of the P320, selected by the U.S. government as the U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS), is not affected by the Voluntary Upgrade.

   “SIG SAUER is committed to our approach on innovation, optimization, and performance, ensuring we produce the finest possible products,” said Ron Cohen, President and CEO of SIG SAUER. “Durability, reliability and safety, as well as end-user confidence in the SIG SAUER brand are the priorities for our team.”


   For more information on SIG SAUER, please visit us at sigsauer.com.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 4:15:22 PM EDT
[#1]
I like the trigger on mine.  I think I'll leave it be.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 4:46:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Also....

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/08/08/sig-sauer-acknowledges-p320-trigger-issues-with-30deg-drop-m17-mhs-unaffected-announces-voluntary-p320-upgrade/
SIG engineers spent the weekend conducting 2,200 drops using 11 pistols across three different test protocols. They included dropping the pistol at a -30deg angle.
View Quote


“Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”

All SIG pistols, including the P320 are tested to the following industry and government standards: ANSI/SAAMI, NIJ, FBI/DOJ, TOP, Massachusetts, and California DOJ as well as various others. They are very specific tests, most of which are conducted by outside labs. The P320 has passed all of those tests. Unfortunately, they don’t test the pistol’s performance when dropped at a -30deg unto concrete. They could drop test a pistol in every conceivable combination of angles on three axes, but that’s 46,000,000 different ways. Consequently, manufacturers build to a standard.
View Quote
While the MHS passed DoD’s TOP 3-2-045 test with the trigger currently in the commercial P320, SIG proposed an enhanced trigger via Engineering Change Request E0005. As it didn’t result in additional cost to the government and only improved the firearm’s performance, M17s currently being delivered to the US Army have this trigger. Additionally, this trigger also eliminates the “double click” felt during P320 trigger pull.
View Quote


Although SIG was already working toward introducing the MHS-inspired Enhanced Trigger to the P320, this -30deg drop issue has hastened their effort. They have lightened the Trigger, Striker and Sear by about 30% overall and added a Disconnect (commercial only, not MHS). The trigger pull weight is unaffected, but rather the trigger part actually weighs less. The reason they lightened those parts is to mitigate the momentum gained by the heavier parts during a drop.

Taylor laid it out, “There is a vulnerability with the P320 at the -30deg drop.” They plan to incorporate the trigger enhancements for the M17 into the P320. They’d been working on them, but implementation wasn’t imminent. Based on what they’ve found, that has been accelerated. Details on their voluntary upgrade program will follow soon.

I want to put this perspective. Since it’s introduction in 2014, they’ve sold around 500,000 P320s. There are three recorded cases of unintended discharges in LE channels . There is one additional commercial incident which I am familiar with but was not formally reported to SIG. That’s four known incidents from 500,000 weapons, many of which are used on a daily basis. Additionally, those incidents have all been within the last year.

Tom Taylor finished up with this statement, “We believe it’s the safest striker fired pistol on the market. We built it to address the most dangerous scenario.”

My take is that despite building their pistols to industry standards, SIG has acknowledged the issue and is taking steps to fix it. They didn’t waste any time. They’ve stopped commercial production of the P320 and are concentrating on the upgrade. It’s going to be more than just swapping parts. The slide and frame will need some work as well so the pistol will need to go back to SIG. Details will soon follow on how to participate in the voluntary upgrade program.
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 6:52:04 PM EDT
[#3]
"If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”

What the fuck kind of response is that?
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 7:25:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Drop your free float firing pin AR....
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 7:48:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Glock greatly outperforms Sig...
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 8:03:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Drop your free float firing pin AR....
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You'd have to drop it on its muzzle, like a 1911, for it to fire.

Generally that's a direction that isn't going to hurt people.

The muzzle pointed into the air at people's heads? That's more of an issue, wouldn't you say?

ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false?

Also, didn't you post some stuff in GD saying "PROOF THAT THE P320 FAILING DROP TESTS IS FAKE NEWS!!!!!!"

Are you some type of Sig apologist or something?
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 9:05:11 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
Drop your free float firing pin AR....
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It won't fire because it doesn't have the speed to ignite the primer.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 10:07:44 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


You'd have to drop it on its muzzle, like a 1911, for it to fire.

Generally that's a direction that isn't going to hurt people.

The muzzle pointed into the air at people's heads? That's more of an issue, wouldn't you say?

ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false?

Also, didn't you post some stuff in GD saying "PROOF THAT THE P320 FAILING DROP TESTS IS FAKE NEWS!!!!!!"

Are you some type of Sig apologist or something?
View Quote
Sad to see this tech forum going the way of GD.
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 10:17:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 10:52:36 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:


ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false?
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You should really read the links I provided before commenting.  Also, how was I proven wrong?
Link Posted: 8/8/2017 11:25:54 PM EDT
[#11]
I wonder how you cut weight by 30% and don't weaken the parts. Even a lighter material like titanium would be more brittle I assume (and a lot more costly).

I still think when Apex or whomever comes out with a nice dingus trigger, it will sell like hot scales (I suspect SIG won't produce enough to keep up with demand (if my search for a "small" compact frame was representative of anything).
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 1:03:43 AM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
You should really read the links I provided before commenting.  Also, how was I proven wrong?
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Quoted:
Quoted:


ETA: Also, aren't you the one who posted how Sig greatly outperformed Glock in the trials, and that was found to be false?
You should really read the links I provided before commenting.  Also, how was I proven wrong?
It didn't outperform it. Outperform would mean it performed better. Sig offered a better deal regarding the overall package price, as well as supply of ammunition and accessories.

We don't know how well the pistols tested actually performed because the testing wasn't complete.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 4:25:18 AM EDT
[#13]
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That wasn't a GD post, he's saying his bias is in play when it comes to objectively assessing how bad this is.

It happens.
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Quoted:


That wasn't a GD post, he's saying his bias is in play when it comes to objectively assessing how bad this is.

It happens.
Thank you for not being a fanboi. In another section of this forum the fanboi is strong with a certain mod and all technical threads discussing this subject were locked. Everything was fine until this situation came up and even during that brief moment when the original drop test video was in question he was all for chiming in. Then shit got real and now all the Sig fanbois want these threads shutdown or heavily moderated. It's like we're are on Glocktalk back 17 years ago. It is just bizarre how rabid some people are about defending the P320.

On that point, when I first read Bruce Gray's response to the initial video it struck me as very Larry Vickers of him. Bruce Gray self proclaimed to be the subject matter expert on the P320, then went on to claim that there has never been a single verified instance of the gun firing when dropped. Bruce Gray's silence since being proved to be spectacularly wrong in his subject matter expertise of the P320 drives home my belief that I was right in my initial impression of him. Before all of this I was planning to buy some parts for my project P228R from him.

Here is a link to Bruce Grays comments in this dumpster fire of a thread that the fanboi MOD locked after this was all proven to be true.
Raging dumpster fire

Link to the original statement in case people want to skip the other thread.
https://primaryandsecondary.com/addressing-concerns-sig-sauer-p320/

Reality and facts matter.

Full disclosure: Grayguns has developed patent-pending fire control parts for the P320, to enhance these actions for competition and elite users while maintaining full mechanical safety values. Some of this work was done in cooperation with SIG SAUER, and much independently.



I can state with assurance that I may be considered a SME on this platform.

I speak only for myself here:

We have dropped, thrown and banged on P320’s for three years, working on our long-term and very in-depth R&D project. Some of our attempts well exceeded accepted specifications for such drop and jar tests. I include throwing a P320 against our shop wall in that category.

I’ve never experienced an instance in which an example with intact striker lock and reasonable sear and springing values would fire when dropped, much less a proper factory-spec gun.

I have quietly searched for and looked into online reports of any claimed malfunctions or safety issues, including drop-safety failures.

In three years, have yet to verify a single proven instance in which a proper, factory-spec P320 has fired when dropped.

Individual pistols and parts can break, of course. Were that to happen, SIG SAUER will correct it and revise any component which may benefit from it, as has already been the case with the extractor, for example. This is absolutely to be expected from the world’s premier gunmaker.

But that’s not the issue. Because there isn’t one, in my informed opinion.

However, every bit of my 43 years of gunsmithing and design experience, and my special knowledge of this platform, have convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that the P320 has no inherent flaw or fault whatsoever in it’s safety systems or fire control mechanism.

I’ve read the memo, followed discussions, communicated with some of the personalities involved and chatted online with one of the authors of a recent blog on the DPD’s decision.

I am here to tell you that there is nothing there to justify pulling the P320 from duty.

Nothing at all, as far as I am able to see. And believe me, I have skin in the game, and I am looking.

I fully expect this decision to be rescinded shortly once the light of day and sensibility are brought to bear. What SIG might due in response to the rumourmongering which passes as online journalism these days is not for me to speculate upon.

In fact, speculating about these things at all seems bad form. For my part, I can and will back my statements.

-Bruce Gray

Grayguns LLC
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 5:18:46 AM EDT
[#14]
So is Sig directly lying here?

"The P320 meets and exceeds all U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies."


Because SAAMI's drop safety standards say:

5.2. Criterion - The firearm shall not fire a chambered empty primed case of its designated
cartridge when tested in accordance with this procedure. In a multi-chambered gun the
primed case(s) shall be inserted in the chamber(s) directly in front of the firing pin(s). Parts
breakage or other damage resulting from drop testing does not constitute failure as long as
the empty primed case does not fire and the firearm can be unloaded safely after each drop.

5.3. Test Procedure - The firearm or firearms shall be dropped in such a way as to cause them
to strike the rubber mat surface in each of the following attitudes:
a) Barrel vertical, muzzle down.
b) Barrel vertical, muzzle up.
c) Barrel horizontal, bottom up.
d) Barrel horizontal, bottom down.
e) Barrel horizontal, left side up.
f) Barrel horizontal, right side up.


Because it seems like everyone who tries this can get the gun to fire when they drop it with the barrel vertical and the muzzle up.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 6:41:25 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So is Sig directly lying here?

"The P320 meets and exceeds all U.S. standards for safety, including the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) and Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI), as well as rigorous testing protocols for global military and law enforcement agencies."

5.3. Test Procedure - The firearm or firearms shall be dropped in such a way as to cause them
to strike the rubber mat surface in each of the following attitudes:
a) Barrel vertical, muzzle down.
b) Barrel vertical, muzzle up.
c) Barrel horizontal, bottom up.
d) Barrel horizontal, bottom down.
e) Barrel horizontal, left side up.
f) Barrel horizontal, right side up.

Because it seems like everyone who tries this can get the gun to fire when they drop it with the barrel vertical and the muzzle up.
View Quote
I don't think this is true and that was the problem.  From what I saw, it was a 30-degree angle not vertical, that was creating the discharge.  So, according to the standard (vertical), it was drop-safe IAW the ANSI.  What this tells me is that the standard is outdated and needs to include a drop test that is flush with the back of the frame on the handgun, be it a vertical flush (ala Glock) or an angled flush (ala P320).  This is actually a good catch that Sig missed as well as not really part of the ANSI testing to expose this safety issue.  At least Sig acknowledged their design flaw; some gun manufacturers would just warn you to "drop your pistol only IAW ANSI/SAAMI standards or you will void your warranty"

ROCK6
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 8:00:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 8:37:52 AM EDT
[#17]
You people that don't think this is an issue are fucked up in the head.  

The pistol takes a tumble with the likely chance it can go off with the muzzle up at about a 60 degree angle.  Hnnng, what could go wrong there??
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 8:48:42 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:
You people that don't think this is an issue are fucked up in the head.  

The pistol takes a tumble with the likely chance it can go off with the muzzle up at about a 60 degree angle.  Hnnng, what could go wrong there??
View Quote
Yeah it can happen what is the probability it will happen between now and when the parts get swapped.....  This is being blown so far out of proportion were all you guys who carry these having discharges while carrying?  Be a little more careful till the new parts come in and carry on.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:17:02 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:


Yeah it can happen what is the probability it will happen between now and when the parts get swapped.....  This is being blown so far out of proportion were all you guys who carry these having discharges while carrying?  Be a little more careful till the new parts come in and carry on.
View Quote
In the meantime anyone who gets hurt or killed is just collateral damage. No big deal.

Meanwhile there will still be people out there who don't visit gun boards or really anything gun related in the web because they are not avid shooters. They don't know much about firearms or safety. They, like a whole lot of other fucking people, bought the P320 to keep in the night stand. It might get shot every couple of years as a novelty. Now those people are next to you at the range with a gun that may fire if dropped. No big deal though. They just have to be more careful.

In college I worked at an indoor range. The majority of people are fucking retarded. Next time you are at an indoor range, look up above you. People drop and misuse their guns every day. Personally I give zero fucks about these people. I am more concerned that me or my wife are not domed by Martha two lanes over who excitedly dropped her gun after hitting the target the first time. The problem with defects in firearms is they do not only effect the end user. They effect the end user and everyone in the area of the end user.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 10:19:59 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


In the meantime anyone who gets hurt or killed is just collateral damage. No big deal.

Meanwhile there will still be people out there who don't visit gun boards or really anything gun related in the web because they are not avid shooters. They don't know much about firearms or safety. They, like a whole lot of other fucking people, bought the P320 to keep in the night stand. It might get shot every couple of years as a novelty. Now those people are next to you at the range with a gun that may fire if dropped. No big deal though. They just have to be more careful.

In college I worked at an indoor range. The majority of people are fucking retarded. Next time you are at an indoor range, look up above you. People drop and misuse their guns every day. Personally I give zero fucks about these people. I am more concerned that me or my wife are not domed by Martha two lanes over who excitedly dropped her gun after hitting the target the first time. The problem with defects in firearms is they do not only effect the end user. They effect the end user and everyone in the area of the end user.
View Quote
Their is not such thing as a drop safe firearm.  Any firearm can fail even worse for some who modify their pistol completely.  I have seen people with highly modified pistol with drop safeties removed, people who carry 1911s especially those who care them condition zero and I know a few who do freely admitting it.  I cannot control what other people will do but I know what other people will do and life will carry on.  Some people who only own a P320 pistol and only own a P320 pistol might think hey the off chance this could happen does not far outweigh the off chance I might actually need my side arm D'oh I stopped carrying it that on the off chance I have to actually use it, that is the day I draw it drop it and it lands on the back of the slide at just the right angle to fire it, it hit me or a bystander, and I was unaware any such problem was even possible.  It is going to happen people are going to carry willfully and ignorantly because they did not know.  I am not going to lose sleep over it Sig has a responsibility to get the word out about a recall.  Sig Armorers should be stocked up with the parts to do the swaps quickly.  I should become a Sig Armorer I could make some cash right now!
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 2:45:28 PM EDT
[#21]
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so for anyone that owns the civilian version.  is anyone going to send theirs back?

i have the compact version and honestly i am not that worried about this..
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Yes, I will send mine back. In fact,  mine is in my gunsafe awaiting clarification from Sig. I carry in a fannypack due to Wheelchair use.  I have no interest in taking a chance on having a drop bang and possibly shooting myself or another person. Life is too long to be miserable.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 4:33:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
so for anyone that owns the civilian version.  is anyone going to send theirs back?

i have the compact version and honestly i am not that worried about this..
View Quote
I'm not sending mine back and I'm really not concerned at all.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 4:54:28 PM EDT
[#23]
I will send mine back one at a time and hope for the best.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 8:15:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:32:00 PM EDT
[#25]
The really ironic thing is that the glock fanbois are giddy about this, yet the P320 has never injured or killed anyone as a result of the drop angle, and once the guns are fixed, never will.

Compare that to all the NDs from glocks when the operator pulls the trigger to field strip.

Yeah, lets work ourselves into a lather over something that has never happened, while ignoring the things that have, are, and always will happen.  

And BTW, I like glock.  I just happen to like my Sigs more.  

Since I've swapped out the factory trigger for the Apex, I probably won't send it in, but I'll wait and see.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:35:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Edit - keep it tech or don't post.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:37:37 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
Compare that to all the NDs from glocks when the operator pulls the trigger to field strip.
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Those ND's are from user negligence (hence the name ND), not a engineering problem that the company openly denied... Apples to Oranges
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:43:57 PM EDT
[#28]
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Those ND's are from user negligence (hence the name ND), not a engineering problem that the company openly denied... Apples to Oranges
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Compare that to all the NDs from glocks when the operator pulls the trigger to field strip.
Those ND's are from user negligence (hence the name ND), not a engineering problem that the company openly denied... Apples to Oranges
I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it.

The glock ND issue has been going on since the mid 1980s and glock has done nothing to correct it.

Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel; some things never change.

If I get hit by a stray round I'm not going to spend much time wondering if it was a dropped gun or a field stripped gun; I'm just going to go to the hospital or the morgue.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:52:01 PM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it.

The glock ND issue has been going on since the mid 1980s and glock has done nothing to correct it.

Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel; some things never change.

If I get hit by a stray round I'm not going to spend much time wondering if it was a dropped gun or a field stripped gun; I'm just going to go to the hospital or the morgue.
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No, I fully understand your intended point, but its not Glock's responsibility to hold everyone's hand and make sure that some retard doesn't try to field-strip their pistol with a round in the chamber... This is a stupid people issue, not a defect with the product like the P320.

Again, the two are just not comparable.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:54:15 PM EDT
[#30]
There is a documented injury with a dropped P320.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 9:58:50 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
No, I fully understand your intended point, but its not Glock's responsibility to hold everyone's hand and make sure that some retard doesn't try to field-strip their pistol with a round in the chamber... This is a stupid people issue, not a defect with the product like the P320.

Again, the two are just not comparable.
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Quoted:
I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it.

The glock ND issue has been going on since the mid 1980s and glock has done nothing to correct it.

Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel; some things never change.

If I get hit by a stray round I'm not going to spend much time wondering if it was a dropped gun or a field stripped gun; I'm just going to go to the hospital or the morgue.
No, I fully understand your intended point, but its not Glock's responsibility to hold everyone's hand and make sure that some retard doesn't try to field-strip their pistol with a round in the chamber... This is a stupid people issue, not a defect with the product like the P320.

Again, the two are just not comparable.
I get what you're saying, but both issues are piss-poor-engineering issues.  The comparable part is that one issue will be fixed pretty quickly and easily, the other will not only continue, but be hailed as 'perfection' by the critics of the former.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 10:20:09 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:
I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it.
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I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/07/breaking-mhs-winner-sig-sauer-sued-police-officer-shot-dropped-holstered-p320/

A Stamford police officer has sued gunmaker Sig Sauer over injuries he suffered when his holstered P320 pistol discharged and hit him in the leg after he dropped it in a parking lot.
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 11:09:52 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I think you're missing the point; not only has this defect not injured or killed anyone, it is unlikely to ever happen because Sig will be fixing it.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/07/breaking-mhs-winner-sig-sauer-sued-police-officer-shot-dropped-holstered-p320/

A Stamford police officer has sued gunmaker Sig Sauer over injuries he suffered when his holstered P320 pistol discharged and hit him in the leg after he dropped it in a parking lot.
Wait, so glocks design defect (pull the trigger to field strip) is not comparable to Sig's design defect (drop might = boom) but one Sig unintended discharge/injury is comparable to the thousands of glock unintended discharges/injures?  

You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel....

Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value.  

So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook.  But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320.  They're both failures of the design engineer.  Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not.  
Link Posted: 8/9/2017 11:38:25 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
Wait, so glocks design defect (pull the trigger to field strip) is not comparable to Sig's design defect (drop might = boom) but one Sig unintended discharge/injury is comparable to the thousands of glock unintended discharges/injures?  

You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel....

Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value.  

So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook.  But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320.  They're both failures of the design engineer.  Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not.  
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You cant "fix" what is not broken... User negligence does not equal design defect

This comparison is so stupid...
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wait, so glocks design defect (pull the trigger to field strip) is not comparable to Sig's design defect (drop might = boom) but one Sig unintended discharge/injury is comparable to the thousands of glock unintended discharges/injures?  

You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel....

Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value.  

So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook.  But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320.  They're both failures of the design engineer.  Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not.  
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I'm not making your point, I'm showing how you have no bearing on fact with your claim that no one has been hurt from the Sig drop issue.

A lot of people around here seem to tie their identity and self worth to a specific brand, otherwise if Sig had a design flaw that would somehow make them less of a person. So y'all must contort reality and reason by saying that other vendor x/y/z made mistakes too, the issue has not hurt anyone, or others in different threads actually saying they just need to be more careful with their 320. All these statement are used as justification that somehow means that the 320 does not have a design flaw.

I personally don't care about whether some likes Glock or Sig because think once Sig addresses the issue the world will move on and the 320 will be a great gun again.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 12:03:39 AM EDT
[#36]
It's good to see that Sig is already offering a voluntary trigger upgrade for the issue. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mandatory recall after they have more time to analyze it, probably by the end of the week.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 1:46:51 AM EDT
[#37]
[youtube]https://youtu.be/veI5NsDqG9E[/youtube]
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 1:52:53 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It's good to see that Sig is already offering a voluntary trigger upgrade for the issue. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mandatory recall after they have more time to analyze it, probably by the end of the week.
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I don't think so. If you have read their initial press release about this issue and then the comments by Cohen, I feel like they are trying to down play this as much as possible. I get the impression that Sig has known about this issue since the FBI testing but making the announcement and changes then might have impacted its selection during the XM17 trials. It wouldn't look very good if the pistol being considered for selection had safety questions even if those questions about the P320 didn't apply to the XM17, the average tax payer doesn't know the difference between the two pistols. The real question in my opinion is what did Sig really know about this drop issue and when did it know it?
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 2:07:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wait, so glocks design defect (pull the trigger to field strip) is not comparable to Sig's design defect (drop might = boom) but one Sig unintended discharge/injury is comparable to the thousands of glock unintended discharges/injures?  

You're making my point for me; strain out a gnat and swallow a camel....

Unless you were trying to point out that because I overlooked the one injury my argument has no value.  

So for 31 years people have been getting shot (maybe killed; who knows) field stripping a glock because they're too stupid to check the chamber first, you'll overlook.  But you sure didn't miss that one guy that was injured by a dropped P320.  They're both failures of the design engineer.  Again, one is getting fixed, and one is not.  
View Quote
Not sure how you're telling yourself that Glock's "pull the trigger to disassemble" is a design defect. It's how it was designed to be taken apart. Besides, it just ties into common sense. It's up to the user to verify the gun is unloaded before working on it.

Unless SIG intended for the P320 to go off when dropped, that would be considered a design defect.
Link Posted: 8/10/2017 8:56:03 AM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:


Not sure how you're telling yourself that Glock's "pull the trigger to disassemble" is a design defect. It's how it was designed to be taken apart. Besides, it just ties into common sense. It's up to the user to verify the gun is unloaded before working on it.

Unless SIG intended for the P320 to go off when dropped, that would be considered a design defect.
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Get out of here with your facts and logic..... Oh wait this is not GD.  It is a design flaw lets see if Sig fixed it because you know people are going to now test the Hell out of the P320.  I for one hope a bunch of people ditch them at gun stores near me.  They are terrible pistols and you should sell them off and get a Glock but sell it off to a gun store near me.    If they start showing up in LGSs for good enough price I will actually buy one they are pretty good shooting pistols.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 3:59:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Hey, Sig said there are no issues so no need to get the trigger upgrade, right?
Just notified my wife that Sig said there are no issues.
So, if something were to happen she gets to sue their ass.
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 4:13:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 8/12/2017 5:35:02 PM EDT
[#43]
I have the Apex flat trigger in mine ( P320  compact 45 ) and I could not get it to discharge when dropped on its back on a short tight wool Berber carpet from 4 feet . For the time being I switched back to my S&W M&P c in 45 acp for CCW . I think this is a 1 in a million kind of thing that is being dealt with by Sig and in the end all will be satisfied with the outcome. The P320 is an outstanding pistol and I'm sure the problem will be resolved .
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:01:15 AM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:


No, I fully understand your intended point, but its not Glock's responsibility to hold everyone's hand and make sure that some retard...
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So you believe that cops are retards?  They are,after all, the ones NDing the most with them.  

Beware the internet expert who knows everything.

Glock has known for three decades (I'll help you, that's 30 years) that pulling the trigger to field strip was an issue.  They've done nothing.  Sig screwed up bad but it looks like they're coming around.  I own both, and like both, but Gaston's perfection has needed some improvements (necessary for an ISO9001 cert) but failed to implement them.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 5:40:22 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You also can't argue that pulling the trigger to takedown a pistol isn't a.... Sub optimal way of doing it. However,  that's a poor design, not an engineering failure.
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While I agree it is sub optimal, pulling a trigger to disassemble is not a poor design and is not exclusive to the Glock. As long as the user is following the proper safety rules there should be zero chance of someone hurting themselves or others. People comparing Glocks take down procedure to the Sig P320s going off if dropped is like comparing apples to Jeeps. They are not even in realm.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 5:44:12 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Glock has known for three decades (I'll help you, that's 30 years) that pulling the trigger to field strip was an issue.  They've done nothing.  Sig screwed up bad but it looks like they're coming around.  I own both, and like both, but Gaston's perfection has needed some improvements (necessary for an ISO9001 cert) but failed to implement them.
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You do realize Glock is not the only firearm manufacture that requires the end user to pull the trigger to dissasemble right?

ETA: Also, wtf does ISO9001 have to do with this discussion at all? Your posts on this subject are heavily dipped in derp.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 5:50:12 AM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So you believe that cops are retards?  They are,after all, the ones NDing the most with them.  
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I am a cop, and yes some cops are retards...  Also many cops are not "gun people". When I went through the academy several of the cadets in my class had never even fired a gun before...
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 5:54:05 AM EDT
[#48]
Not checking the chamber before disassembling a Glock is akin to not handcuffing a suspect before putting them in your car.
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 6:05:38 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 7:03:41 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A probation officer shot her downstairs neighbor trying to clean her Glock. I like glocks but is it a great gun for some social worker who got a PO job and then got a day at the range with the Sheriff Dept firearms instructor before they gave her a Glock and a Serpa? 
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Someone like that though is going to hurt themselves or someone else no matter what you give them.
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