Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 1/3/2012 6:01:06 PM EDT
I did try the search function but I am doing something wrong all queries turned up no results.

The question. I have a .45 pistol that shoots fmj with great reliablity but is not so great shooting hollow points. Sometimes it cycles the whole magazine sometimes not. Mostly they get stuck in the mag well(nose dive?) Disconcerting.

I honestly do not have the money to buy different brands of ammo in search of the best HP round. I might try one or two brands but that is the most I will invest. The military uses FMJ and it is a freaking .45, so is a full power FMJ round good enough?
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 6:03:01 PM EDT
If that's all it will fire reliably then yes, it is fine for self defense.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 6:10:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2012 6:10:53 PM EDT by grn06rubi]
Remember each round has a lawsuit attached to it. Yeah FMJ is good for self defense but I'd make damn sure that bullet isn't going to come out the other side and hit someone else
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 6:11:06 PM EDT
Definitely fine, using FMJ and knowing the gun is going to work is much more important. Maybe you could keep using FMJ and periodically try out a different HP every once and a while and see what cycles without malfunction.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 6:32:03 PM EDT
Nothing magic about 45 acp FMJ. It makes a nice neat .45 inch hole. Compared to a good self defense round this isn't so hot. A good 45acp JPH makes a jagged .85 inch hole. A good 9mm, .65 inch. All have adequate penetration. If it's all you have, it's all you have but remember that unless you hit a bone or major piece of the nervous system, it's blood loss that incapacitates an attacker. FMJ's coming from pistols aren't so great at this. I would start saving for a good $500 9mm that will handle any ammo on the market.

Link Posted: 1/3/2012 6:45:40 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies. I do have a full size 9mm that works for every round I have fired in it (not a lot maybe 500 rounds and 4-5 different types of bullet). I will read more on HP bullets. I just like the compact .45.

I think my main question was simply how effective .45 FMJ could be in a pistol.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 7:25:29 PM EDT
Good read on defensive ammo: ammo link

I was sorta kinda interested in the new Dan Wesson ECO which is a compact .45 Compact 45's are apparently hard to design to work well all the time. Guess I'll have to be careful on this one given I want it for carry.

Link Posted: 1/3/2012 8:00:09 PM EDT
If this is a 1911, you may want to try out a Wilson Combat or Kimpro Tac magazine.

As to your original question, I would have no problem using 230gr. 45acp FMJ ammo with a velocity around 850fps for defense if it's all I had.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 10:14:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mac_BAIN:
I did try the search function but I am doing something wrong all queries turned up no results.

The question. I have a .45 pistol that shoots fmj with great reliablity but is not so great shooting hollow points. Sometimes it cycles the whole magazine sometimes not. Mostly they get stuck in the mag well(nose dive?) Disconcerting.

I honestly do not have the money to buy different brands of ammo in search of the best HP round. I might try one or two brands but that is the most I will invest. The military uses FMJ and it is a freaking .45, so is a full power FMJ round good enough?


Maybe, maybe not.

The better question is why tolerate a gun that won't feed modern defensive ammo that has been shown to be the best choice for use against violent human attackers?
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 10:21:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
If this is a 1911, you may want to try out a Wilson Combat magazine.



See above. If it's a 1911 almost all feed issues are either a crappy magazine or a too tight extractor.
Link Posted: 1/3/2012 10:59:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mac_BAIN:
The military uses FMJ and it is a freaking .45, so is a full power FMJ round good enough?


Not because they want to, though.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:52:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TexAg10:
The better question is why tolerate a gun that won't feed modern defensive ammo that has been shown to be the best choice for use against violent human attackers?


Good question.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:16:40 AM EDT
230 grain hardball in 1911's has been working for 100 years.

Alvin York killed a squad of German soldiers with one shot each as they came down the hill to try to find him and kill him (WW 1). He used 230 grain fmj.

Thomas Baker killed 8 Japanese soldiers with one shot each as they came towards him on a trail on the island of Saipan (WW 2). He used 230 grain fmj.

Both were awarded the CMOH.

It works. Put the bullet where it needs to go.

Anyone who's shot enough live game can tell you bullets don't always work as advertised. Use the same bullet/load on multiple animals and over the years you'll see sometimes you get a small hole, sometimes a big hole. Sometimes the bones that are hit shatter and do terrible damage to the surrounding tissue and sometimes the bulelts will turn/deflect off the bone and travel through the tissue. Sometimes the animal drops like a wet rag and sometimes they haul ass before collapsing somewhere else to die.

The best advice I can give is have a gun that works and be able to shoot it well and know when to shoot it.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:06:29 AM EDT
Search for Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket). From the Ammo FAQ, it is not as good as a true hollowpoint, but it would be better than a FMJ. May or may not resolve your feeding issues, but worth a try.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 3:08:08 AM EDT
Given the choice I'll take a 230 HP over FMJ. OP best option fix the gun so it works with HP ammo.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:02:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:28:02 AM EDT
FMJ is an acceptable choice in small calibers like .32ACP where hollowpoints will not reach the desired 12" of penetration.

In a service caliber, there is NO reason not to use them. If your pistol cannot feed them, then you need a new pistol.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:47:49 AM EDT
id check the mags etc as people have stated ....

personally i wouldnt accept a gun that wouldnt shoot hps ... no reason to, the fix has to be something small

i would worry about FMJ for carry in case of a situation where you are in a crowd .. those shooting through one guy and killing another stories arent exciting when you consider the other could easily be an innocent by stander ... for me its not about the law suit as much as it would be about living with that
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:22:48 AM EDT
What is the platform you shoot that is having feed issues?
What kind of mag are you using in the platform?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:26:49 AM EDT
Federal has a line of EFMJ, "E" for expanding, self defense ammo called Guard Dog.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:28:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mac_BAIN:
The military uses FMJ and it is a freaking .45, so is a full power FMJ round good enough?


because the Hague Convention forbids the use of JHPs.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:34:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By grn06rubi:
Remember each round has a lawsuit attached to it. Yeah FMJ is good for self defense but I'd make damn sure that bullet isn't going to come out the other side and hit someone else

Bullshit scare tactic from the 80's to scare people into believing that JHP's are a legal necessity. More likely to hit a bystander with a miss.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:44:07 AM EDT
Weapon make and model?
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:46:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
230 grain hardball in 1911's has been working for 100 years.

Alvin York killed a squad of German soldiers with one shot each as they came down the hill to try to find him and kill him (WW 1). He used 230 grain fmj.

Thomas Baker killed 8 Japanese soldiers with one shot each as they came towards him on a trail on the island of Saipan (WW 2). He used 230 grain fmj.

Both were awarded the CMOH.

It works. Put the bullet where it needs to go.

Anyone who's shot enough live game can tell you bullets don't always work as advertised. Use the same bullet/load on multiple animals and over the years you'll see sometimes you get a small hole, sometimes a big hole. Sometimes the bones that are hit shatter and do terrible damage to the surrounding tissue and sometimes the bulelts will turn/deflect off the bone and travel through the tissue. Sometimes the animal drops like a wet rag and sometimes they haul ass before collapsing somewhere else to die.

The best advice I can give is have a gun that works and be able to shoot it well and know when to shoot it.




Nice anecdotes.

JHP works better.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 7:17:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
Anyone who's shot enough live game can tell you bullets don't always work as advertised.


They can also tell you that they don't use ball ammunition.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 7:38:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 7:40:22 AM EDT by Hawgleg44]
Originally Posted By soulman:
Search for Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket). From the Ammo FAQ, it is not as good as a true hollowpoint, but it would be better than a FMJ. May or may not resolve your feeding issues, but worth a try.


It's definately better option than ball ammo for carry.

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By grn06rubi:
Remember each round has a lawsuit attached to it. Yeah FMJ is good for self defense but I'd make damn sure that bullet isn't going to come out the other side and hit someone else

Bullshit scare tactic from the 80's to scare people into believing that JHP's are a legal necessity. More likely to hit a bystander with a miss.


If there's anyone who has studied shootings, both LE and non-LE, it's Massad Ayoob, and he has published a lot of incidents where FMJ rounds, especially in 9mm and .45acp (probably because they are most common) have over penetrated and hit either fellow officers or innocent bystanders.

It would not cost much to have a competent gunsmith polish or ramp the barrel to make it reliable with JHP's. I had a Colt 1991A1 that would feed nothing but ball ammo until I polished the feed ramp. It would feed anything after that.


Link Posted: 1/4/2012 8:35:39 AM EDT
Ok. Looks like it is going to a gunsmith at some point. I suppose I already knew that. I have the 9mm and some other stuff for home defense. Plus it is still a great gun for target shooting with the FMJ's.

Thanks again.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 11:09:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mac_BAIN:
Ok. Looks like it is going to a gunsmith at some point. I suppose I already knew that. I have the 9mm and some other stuff for home defense. Plus it is still a great gun for target shooting with the FMJ's.

Thanks again.



I'm not as well informed as many, but i have read that short barrel 1911's have a problem with the slide speed and geometry. It may be a matter of design. Worth looking into before it goes to the smith.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 11:44:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mac_BAIN:
Ok. Looks like it is going to a gunsmith at some point. I suppose I already knew that. I have the 9mm and some other stuff for home defense. Plus it is still a great gun for target shooting with the FMJ's.

Thanks again.



What kind of gun is this?

If I had a gun that didn't work then I would send it back to the manufacturer for them to fix it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 12:26:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 556A2:
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
Anyone who's shot enough live game can tell you bullets don't always work as advertised.


They can also tell you that they don't use ball ammunition.



really? How much game have you killed? Iv used FMJ .223 and .308 for 90% of the deer, elk, or hog iv ever taken.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 12:48:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garretts1776:
Originally Posted By 556A2:
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
Anyone who's shot enough live game can tell you bullets don't always work as advertised.


They can also tell you that they don't use ball ammunition.



really? How much game have you killed? Iv used FMJ .223 and .308 for 90% of the deer, elk, or hog iv ever taken.


Honest to God you are the first person I've ever heard that uses ball for CXP2 class game.

Every hunter (including myself) I've met always use softpoints.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 1:51:49 PM EDT
not anecdotes - facts/history

It works.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 2:13:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By mac_BAIN:
Ok. Looks like it is going to a gunsmith at some point. I suppose I already knew that. I have the 9mm and some other stuff for home defense. Plus it is still a great gun for target shooting with the FMJ's.

Thanks again.



What kind of gun is this?

If I had a gun that didn't work then I would send it back to the manufacturer for them to fix it.


This.

It really would help if we knew the gun, model, make and type of magazines used.
Link Posted: 1/4/2012 4:51:35 PM EDT
I've had no problems killing game with 223 and 308 fmj, from white tail deer on down.

Originally Posted By 556A2:
Originally Posted By garretts1776:
Originally Posted By 556A2:
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
Anyone who's shot enough live game can tell you bullets don't always work as advertised.


They can also tell you that they don't use ball ammunition.



really? How much game have you killed? Iv used FMJ .223 and .308 for 90% of the deer, elk, or hog iv ever taken.


Honest to God you are the first person I've ever heard that uses ball for CXP2 class game.

Every hunter (including myself) I've met always use softpoints.


Link Posted: 1/4/2012 5:08:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By soulman:
Search for Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket). From the Ammo FAQ, it is not as good as a true hollowpoint, but it would be better than a FMJ. May or may not resolve your feeding issues, but worth a try.


It's definately better option than ball ammo for carry.

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By grn06rubi:
Remember each round has a lawsuit attached to it. Yeah FMJ is good for self defense but I'd make damn sure that bullet isn't going to come out the other side and hit someone else

Bullshit scare tactic from the 80's to scare people into believing that JHP's are a legal necessity. More likely to hit a bystander with a miss.


If there's anyone who has studied shootings, both LE and non-LE, it's Massad Ayoob, and he has published a lot of incidents where FMJ rounds, especially in 9mm and .45acp (probably because they are most common) have over penetrated and hit either fellow officers or innocent bystanders.

It would not cost much to have a competent gunsmith polish or ramp the barrel to make it reliable with JHP's. I had a Colt 1991A1 that would feed nothing but ball ammo until I polished the feed ramp. It would feed anything after that.



I really wish I could find it, but years ago I ran across and article online where one of the Police chiefs admitted that they overhyped the threat based on a handful of incidents to allow them the use of hollow points, when HP's at the time had a negative stigma.

"A lot of incidences" is not a number. There's a lot of instances where JHP's fail and act like FMJ, there's lots of instances of misses hitting bystanders as well.

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 5:56:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2012 5:57:48 PM EDT by Hawgleg44]
Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By soulman:
Search for Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket). From the Ammo FAQ, it is not as good as a true hollowpoint, but it would be better than a FMJ. May or may not resolve your feeding issues, but worth a try.


It's definately better option than ball ammo for carry.

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By grn06rubi:
Remember each round has a lawsuit attached to it. Yeah FMJ is good for self defense but I'd make damn sure that bullet isn't going to come out the other side and hit someone else

Bullshit scare tactic from the 80's to scare people into believing that JHP's are a legal necessity. More likely to hit a bystander with a miss.


If there's anyone who has studied shootings, both LE and non-LE, it's Massad Ayoob, and he has published a lot of incidents where FMJ rounds, especially in 9mm and .45acp (probably because they are most common) have over penetrated and hit either fellow officers or innocent bystanders.

It would not cost much to have a competent gunsmith polish or ramp the barrel to make it reliable with JHP's. I had a Colt 1991A1 that would feed nothing but ball ammo until I polished the feed ramp. It would feed anything after that.



I really wish I could find it, but years ago I ran across and article online where one of the Police chiefs admitted that they overhyped the threat based on a handful of incidents to allow them the use of hollow points, when HP's at the time had a negative stigma.

"A lot of incidences" is not a number. There's a lot of instances where JHP's fail and act like FMJ, there's lots of instances of misses hitting bystanders as well.



It doesn't matter what round you use, a miss can hit a bystander. I really don't get where you are going with that one. And sure, some barriers, like heavy clothing, can cause a HP to clog up and "act" like a FMJ. No bullet is perfect. But a good JHP bullet will usually transfer all its energy and stop inside the individual you are forced to stop. If it does stop inside the intended target, it eliminates the possibility of overpenetration and hitting a bystander. Will it always stop and not overpenetrate? No. But if you can reduce the possibility of an innocent getting injured or killed, it makes no sense to use a round known for overpenetration.

Under some situations, even misses can be less dangerous to bystanders by using a JHP over a FMJ round. JHP's deform more and ricochet less than ball ammo.

I'm not saying there's any magic JHP handgun bullet, but JHP's are more effective, not even arguable more effective, they are more effective. So, why be handicapped like the military is with the Hague Convention and use ball ammo?

Link Posted: 1/4/2012 6:23:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By soulman:
Search for Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket). From the Ammo FAQ, it is not as good as a true hollowpoint, but it would be better than a FMJ. May or may not resolve your feeding issues, but worth a try.


It's definately better option than ball ammo for carry.

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By grn06rubi:
Remember each round has a lawsuit attached to it. Yeah FMJ is good for self defense but I'd make damn sure that bullet isn't going to come out the other side and hit someone else

Bullshit scare tactic from the 80's to scare people into believing that JHP's are a legal necessity. More likely to hit a bystander with a miss.


If there's anyone who has studied shootings, both LE and non-LE, it's Massad Ayoob, and he has published a lot of incidents where FMJ rounds, especially in 9mm and .45acp (probably because they are most common) have over penetrated and hit either fellow officers or innocent bystanders.

It would not cost much to have a competent gunsmith polish or ramp the barrel to make it reliable with JHP's. I had a Colt 1991A1 that would feed nothing but ball ammo until I polished the feed ramp. It would feed anything after that.



I really wish I could find it, but years ago I ran across and article online where one of the Police chiefs admitted that they overhyped the threat based on a handful of incidents to allow them the use of hollow points, when HP's at the time had a negative stigma.

"A lot of incidences" is not a number. There's a lot of instances where JHP's fail and act like FMJ, there's lots of instances of misses hitting bystanders as well.



It doesn't matter what round you use, a miss can hit a bystander.
Yep.

I really don't get where you are going with that one.
I thought I spoke rather plainly, that I feel the over penetration issue is over-hyped.

And sure, some barriers, like heavy clothing, can cause a HP to clog up and "act" like a FMJ. No bullet is perfect.
Yup.

But a good JHP bullet will usually transfer all its energy and stop inside the individual you are forced to stop.
Ahhh, the old "energy dump" theory. It's been pretty well debunked over the years.

If it does stop inside the intended target, it eliminates the possibility of overpenetration and hitting a bystander.
It also ups the chances of UNDER penetration, and not stopping the person you thought it was important to shoot.


Will it always stop and not overpenetrate? No. But if you can reduce the possibility of an innocent getting injured or killed, it makes no sense to use a round known for overpenetration.
ANY round can over penetrate, that's why knowing your background is more important. I pick ammo for self defense based on the ability to penetrate and STOP bad guys, not for the after effect.

Under some situations, even misses can be less dangerous to bystanders by using a JHP over a FMJ round. JHP's deform more and ricochet less than ball ammo.
This is true, but has nothing to do with over penetration, the topic at hand.


I'm not saying there's any magic JHP handgun bullet, but JHP's are more effective, not even arguable more effective, they are more effective.
They are more effective over time, but of equal effectiveness to FMJ in the concern of CNS hits, which is the quickest stop available.

So, why be handicapped like the military is with the Hague Convention and use ball ammo?
Because it's cheap and it works.


I've heard every argument you've made, in every FMJ vs. JHP for carry argument I've ever posted on on 3-4 different sites.

NOTHING new ever comes up. It's the same re-hashed argument over and over again.



FMJ works, cycles reliably in a wider range of handguns, provides barrier penetration, and penetrates deeply, which translates to the ability with many rounds to makes cns hits though many layers of clothing and appendages, beyond what typical modern JHP's can achieve.

The funny thing is, every time I write any of that people assume I advocate carrying FMJ instead of JHP (and I even mention it like I do now) but when pressed can't point out the fact I did. That's because all I am doing is pointing out the facts.

The truth is, I believe that the hype and gun rag BS over JHP's SEVERELY crippled defensive ammo. (JHP's where originally designed to STOP over penetration, which led to under penetration, not stop "better") That started the "Faster is better" JHP craze, when it was found that jhp's under penetrated, and people got killed from failing to stop badguys (which probably happened WAY MORE than FMJ's passing through and hurting innocents) the result was slowed down velocities, followed by better JHP construction.



IMHO, when the fast calibers came out, 9x23, 10mm, 9mm +P+, .357 Sig, they would have been MUCH better served by modern construction, but in a jacketed soft nose bullet. That harkens back to the .357 mag being known as a game ender for badguys, .357 softpoints going like hell on wheels. It's also why the .357 SIG has not gained the same notoriety even though it should theoretically be just as good.



Link Posted: 1/5/2012 4:18:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawgleg44:
Originally Posted By soulman:
Search for Federal EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jacket). From the Ammo FAQ, it is not as good as a true hollowpoint, but it would be better than a FMJ. May or may not resolve your feeding issues, but worth a try.


It's definately better option than ball ammo for carry.

Originally Posted By Madcap72:

Originally Posted By grn06rubi:
Remember each round has a lawsuit attached to it. Yeah FMJ is good for self defense but I'd make damn sure that bullet isn't going to come out the other side and hit someone else

Bullshit scare tactic from the 80's to scare people into believing that JHP's are a legal necessity. More likely to hit a bystander with a miss.


If there's anyone who has studied shootings, both LE and non-LE, it's Massad Ayoob, and he has published a lot of incidents where FMJ rounds, especially in 9mm and .45acp (probably because they are most common) have over penetrated and hit either fellow officers or innocent bystanders.

It would not cost much to have a competent gunsmith polish or ramp the barrel to make it reliable with JHP's. I had a Colt 1991A1 that would feed nothing but ball ammo until I polished the feed ramp. It would feed anything after that.




I would be willing to bet that it is a simple fix too. OP, what gun specifically are you using and what magazines? Maybe we can help YOU fix the pistol for next to nothing. If it will feed ball reliably then odds are something is only a tiny bit out of spec so that its not feeding HP's. If a pistol won't feed ball then you have more problems to deal with. Something as simple as polishing the feed ramp, getting better magazines, like Chip McCormicks or Wilson 47D's, and tuning the extractor will more than likely fix your problem.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 4:50:05 AM EDT
Occasionally shoot WWII Colt. Barrel ramp is narrow and designed for FMJ. HP feed one or two then jam.

Found Remington Golden Sabre to feed well. Look for HP that have a FMJ shape without a sharp edge. They may feed in yours.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:08:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
not anecdotes - facts/history

It works.


Anecdotes.

There was recently an account on LF.net of a police officer who was shot in the head with a 230gr .45acp FMJ. Over the course of the gunfight she was shot 6 times. She survived and killed her attackers.

My anecdote cancels out at least one of your anecdotes.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:17:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:29:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
FMJ works, cycles reliably in a wider range of handguns, provides barrier penetration, and penetrates deeply, which translates to the ability with many rounds to makes cns hits though many layers of clothing and appendages, beyond what typical modern JHP's can achieve.

The funny thing is, every time I write any of that people assume I advocate carrying FMJ instead of JHP (and I even mention it like I do now) but when pressed can't point out the fact I did. That's because all I am doing is pointing out the facts.

The truth is, I believe that the hype and gun rag BS over JHP's SEVERELY crippled defensive ammo. (JHP's where originally designed to STOP over penetration, which led to under penetration, not stop "better") That started the "Faster is better" JHP craze, when it was found that jhp's under penetrated, and people got killed from failing to stop badguys (which probably happened WAY MORE than FMJ's passing through and hurting innocents) the result was slowed down velocities, followed by better JHP construction.



IMHO, when the fast calibers came out, 9x23, 10mm, 9mm +P+, .357 Sig, they would have been MUCH better served by modern construction, but in a jacketed soft nose bullet. That harkens back to the .357 mag being known as a game ender for badguys, .357 softpoints going like hell on wheels. It's also why the .357 SIG has not gained the same notoriety even though it should theoretically be just as good.





Agree. I'll take penetration all day long.

I wish there were more JSP options out there. Would make rounds like the .357SIG and 10mm Auto more appealing. In fact, if there were even JSP bullets made for 10mm, I'd have already made the switch to all 10mm. I don't mind rolling my own.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:31:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dance:
I've had no problems killing game with 223 and 308 fmj, from white tail deer on down.

Originally Posted By 556A2:
Originally Posted By garretts1776:
Originally Posted By 556A2:
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
Anyone who's shot enough live game can tell you bullets don't always work as advertised.


They can also tell you that they don't use ball ammunition.



really? How much game have you killed? Iv used FMJ .223 and .308 for 90% of the deer, elk, or hog iv ever taken.


Honest to God you are the first person I've ever heard that uses ball for CXP2 class game.

Every hunter (including myself) I've met always use softpoints.




Id sugest reading the PA game laws before the next time you go hunting for deer.

"Deer and Bear: Regular Seasons - 1) Manually operated (pump,
lever, bolt actions, single-shot) centerfire rifles, shotguns and handguns
(revolvers or single-shots) with all lead bullet or ball, or bullet
designed to expand on impact;"
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 8:20:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 8:21:21 AM EDT by Chris_1522]
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 2:37:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
not anecdotes - facts/history

It works.


Or not. 45acp FMJ isn't listed as an effective SD round here: ammo recommendations

I see under .45ACP:
Barnes XPB/TAC-XP 185gr HP loaded by:
Cor-Bon (DPX45185)
Taurus (TCB45ACP185HP)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)


They are all JHP's with good reason. These reasons become clear as you research the topic. Facts and history, selectively quoted, are anecdotes and have little to do with the science of terminal ballistics. History would only be conclusive if you could demonstrate a position statistically. Marshall and Sanow tried and failed (with some made up data thrown in for good measure). There are better methods now that have been established over more than a decade of research.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 3:24:03 PM EDT
45 Ball has planted a lot of people in a lot of places and will continue to do so.
I like it.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 3:33:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spook410:
Originally Posted By M1A4ME:
not anecdotes - facts/history

It works.


Or not. 45acp FMJ isn't listed as an effective SD round here: ammo recommendations
They are all JHP's with good reason. These reasons become clear as you research the topic.
Facts and history, selectively quoted, are anecdotes and have little to do with the science of terminal ballistics.
History would only be conclusive if you could demonstrate a position statistically.
Marshall and Sanow tried and failed (with some made up data thrown in for good measure). There are better methods now that have been established over more than a decade of research.

So are you saying that FMJ is an ineffective fight stopper because there's no links to a website that says otherwise?
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 3:49:00 PM EDT
I always love it when people say that JHPs are the end all be all for self defence, and have never read up on "THV" style bullets.


A modernized THV style bullet, at light weight and high velocity would be AWESOME.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:15:11 PM EDT
FMJ or HP... I say its all shot placement
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 6:29:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cpatterson:
FMJ or HP... I say its all shot placement

+many, many 1's.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 7:06:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mac_BAIN:
Ok. Looks like it is going to a gunsmith at some point. I suppose I already knew that. I have the 9mm and some other stuff for home defense. Plus it is still a great gun for target shooting with the FMJ's.

Thanks again.


Ummmm you apparently are ashamed of your gun since you will not say what make and model it is. If you are to shy to take it out when it is needed, then it really does not matter what round you use.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top