User Panel
Posted: 3/4/2010 3:32:40 PM EDT
I've thought about adding night sights to my XD9 SC, but don't know if the cost is warranted. I'm curious how many folks carry with just three dot sights v night sights. Poll inbound.
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My G19 for IWB has Trijicons and my G17 for OWB has no night sights.
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Yes, just about all of them. Rifles, shotgun, and pistols. My only two pistols without them(Kahrs) are having XS 24/7 standard dots installed tomorrow/Saturday
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My 1911 has a built in illumination.
It's called ".38 super muzzle flash". |
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No. Any SD situation I get in will most likely be a point shoot. If it occurs at night, chances are I'll have a flashlight. |
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My G19 has stock Glock night sights and my G17 has Trijicons.....I love them.
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Quoted:
No. Any SD situation I get in will most likely be a point shoot. If it occurs at night, chances are I'll have a flashlight. I thought the whole reason we all carry guns is because we can't be sure when or how our lives will be endangered. With your mindset, it seems like you're kinda shooting yourself in the foot (no pun intended). |
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Night sights ... well, it has tritium inserts in the Novak low rise, but not infrared or anything
ETA - way late here, but I just realize that for some reason I read this as "night vision". I blame Obama |
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Of course they do. All of my SD firearms do. The S&W J frame and M&P 9c have a laser as well.
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Night sights have never helped me when pointing my gun at someone in low or no light. I've always used a handheld or weapon mounted light to verify my targets. They're mandatory on my work guns but not used on my CCW gun.
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Yes on my carry. Yes on my backup. Yes on the backup's backup.
(no I don't carry 3 at once) |
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No, my CCW does not have night sights. If you have practiced enough with your gun, you should be able to point and shoot at anything within self-defense range. I generally see night sights as something only practical for police officers/soldiers, who might be in a situation to actually have time to focus on the sights when shooting a BG who is running away, or for cover. Do research on self defense shootings and you will find that the vast majority of incidents do not involve using the sights whatsoever. I have had 100% success with reflexive point-shooting to ranges of about 30ft. I think the problem is that most people don't have access to a range where they can effectively practice point-shooting drills. I myself rarely get this opportunity, but when I have, have found that the fundamentals practiced at ranges with traditionally strict rules have served me well in employing reflexive ['point'] shooting when I have the chance to do quality drills. Unless you are a complete novice and flinch/pull your shots really bad, it would be hard to miss COM at the ranges at which self-defense shootings occur at 95+% of the time. I think night sights are cool, and they certainly can't hurt anything to have on your gun, but I can think of a lot of other things I'd rather spend $100 on.
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I have a crimson trace. You can only get a single front tritium dot for snub nosed revolvers,and they suck from what I've seen.
I had Meprolights on my previous carry piece. |
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Outside of one target gun, ALL my pistols have night sights.
It's such a small thing. I grabbed my pistol to do a walk-through of my house after hearing a window break shortly after moving in. No night sights. Starring down my arms into darkness? Not again. A LASER in that situation is just an arrow pointing to me as well. It took me a good thirty seconds to form a firm opinion of night sights in my weapons as well as a one click quality-thumb operated flashlight |
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Quoted:
Outside of one target gun, ALL my pistols have night sights. It's such a small thing. I grabbed my pistol to do a walk-through of my house after hearing a window break shortly after moving in. No night sights. Starring down my arms into darkness? Not again. A LASER in that situation is just an arrow pointing to me as well. It took me a good thirty seconds to form a firm opinion of night sights in my weapons as well as a one click quality-thumb operated flashlight I'm not trying to peck at you but, a laser is an arrow pointing to you and a flashlight isn't? I've used my nightsights inside my house while searching for what caused a loud crash. Bought a laser the next day. |
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Quoted:
No, my CCW does not have night sights. If you have practiced enough with your gun, you should be able to point and shoot at anything within self-defense range. I generally see night sights as something only practical for police officers/soldiers, who might be in a situation to actually have time to focus on the sights when shooting a BG who is running away, or for cover. Insert facepalm pic here. Night sights are useful for anyone...no matter what their job happens to be...who needs an aiming reference for low light. Believe it or not, there are occasions when you can have enough light to identify a threat without a white light but you may be unable to get a useful sight picture. Do research on self defense shootings and you will find that the vast majority of incidents do not involve using the sights whatsoever. What "self defense" shootings are you referring to? What is the informational basis for your claims? I have had 100% success with reflexive point-shooting to ranges of about 30ft. ...then you haven't been running the right drills to the right standards. If you think you'll be achieving 100% accuracy at 15 yards in low light on moving targets point shooting a handgun while on the move, you're sadly mistaken. Unless you are a complete novice and flinch/pull your shots really bad So you think "novices" jerk the hell out of the trigger in gunfights? it would be hard to miss COM at the ranges at which self-defense shootings occur at 95+% of the time. ...so you really don't know much about gunfights, then. Quoted:
Outside of one target gun, ALL my pistols have night sights. It's such a small thing. I grabbed my pistol to do a walk-through of my house after hearing a window break shortly after moving in. No night sights. Starring down my arms into darkness? Not again. A LASER in that situation is just an arrow pointing to me as well. It took me a good thirty seconds to form a firm opinion of night sights in my weapons as well as a one click quality-thumb operated flashlight Click style flashlights are the devil because they usually get left on...which makes you a target. Yes, lasers can make you a target if used improperly, but used properly they aren't turned on until you are prepping a shot. |
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None of my guns have night sights. So far I have saved $250 by getting 3 guns with out them. Once I decide on my daily carry gun (Probably my Kahr P45) I will add a laser to the gun with the money I saved not paying extra for night sights.
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Like someone said before it wouldn't stop me from buying a gun with some on it but neither of my carry guns have them. My night stand gun has a light mounted on it. And at any distance in my house I wouldn't need sights. I just got new sights on my 1911. I went thru the same issue. Then I shot a para carry 9. It had a green fiber optic sight in front, I fell in love. I'm had Novak's put one of there tactical F O sights on front and plain black back. Night sights are for someone gunning down someone. Not necessary in sd. Now my question is. Why isn't there a night/fiber optic sight. I would buy one if it was decent.
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Yes and there is no good reason not to IMO. That said, I only have tritium in the front sight. I see no reason for rear tritium sights on any gun.
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Nevermind.
I was gonna post something, but it won't add to the conversation and I don't feel like entering into a pissing contest today. The 1911 that will be my carry piece when it gets back has them, but my current one doesn't because I haven't spent the money to get the slide cut for a front dovetail. I have a light that's with me all the time right now anyways. I like them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I have night sights and a light on mine. Even with a light; the tritium helps a lot.
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Yes.... are they needed... more then likey no. But even if it's only a .5% increase in my chances of survival I'll take it.
I fight to win, and anything that gives me a leg up is something that I will use. |
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My XD45 has night sights. I took a long time thinking about this. Crimison trace is good till the things don't work. My trijicons I can tell when they need replaced.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Night sights are inexpensive, don't add bulk to the gun, and are extremely reliable(more-so than a light, laser, or point shooting skills).
For someone who claims that they have no need for them I question how much experience they have shooting in low light and dark conditions. Spending any amount of time using standard irons vs night sights in low light(and actually shooting... not playing in your house) is extremely educational. As always though, training trumps technology... but often times training reveals technological deficiencies. |
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All my guns which might be used in a defensive scenerio all have night sights. A couple have lights attached now also.
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Quoted: Outside of one target gun, ALL my pistols have night sights. It's such a small thing. I grabbed my pistol to do a walk-through of my house after hearing a window break shortly after moving in. No night sights. Starring down my arms into darkness? Not again. A LASER in that situation is just an arrow pointing to me as well. It took me a good thirty seconds to form a firm opinion of night sights in my weapons as well as a one click quality-thumb operated flashlight Your failure was in not having a light, not lacking night sights. How were you prepared to positively ID your target before shooting if you couldn't even see your own pistol sights? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Outside of one target gun, ALL my pistols have night sights. It's such a small thing. I grabbed my pistol to do a walk-through of my house after hearing a window break shortly after moving in. No night sights. Starring down my arms into darkness? Not again. A LASER in that situation is just an arrow pointing to me as well. It took me a good thirty seconds to form a firm opinion of night sights in my weapons as well as a one click quality-thumb operated flashlight Your failure was in not having a light, not lacking night sights. How were you prepared to positively ID your target before shooting if you couldn't even see your own pistol sights? Light or no light, when I yell for them to leave now and they fail to leave immediately or announce themselves they have a serious problem on their hands. |
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Yes. Ameriglo, because they use trijicon tritium, are cheaper, and have more options for sight setups.
Pro-Operators for me. |
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The Kimber Compact does. The S&W M&P9c does not. The Taurus Snubby does not. I have come to the opinion that if they have them fine. If they don't fine.
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I carry a PPS. For a while there were no non-gunsmithing required night sights available. I don't know if there are any available now or not.
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My pistols have them.
Rifles are running illuminated optics of some sort (ACOG or Aimpoint). |
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John_Wayne777,
You are entirely entitled to your own opinions. I don't care to do any research for you, and no I don't have my sources on hand. If you think night sights make the difference between life or death in any statistically significant number of self-defense situations, or even a single one which has occurred - by all means post Your informational source. It's ridiculous to me that you pretend to fictionalize the fact that the vast majority of self-defense shootings occur no further than about 5 yards. As for me personally, I know what's most important is to Have a gun and Be Able to shoot it well. I believe a lot of gun enthusiasts spend too much time in tactical fantasy land and have too much psychologically invested in defending their gizmos rather than understanding what's truly practical. Like I said before, night sights can only help you - I am not knocking them. Bottom line: my current CCW doesn't have them and I'm not worried about it. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Outside of one target gun, ALL my pistols have night sights. It's such a small thing. I grabbed my pistol to do a walk-through of my house after hearing a window break shortly after moving in. No night sights. Starring down my arms into darkness? Not again. A LASER in that situation is just an arrow pointing to me as well. It took me a good thirty seconds to form a firm opinion of night sights in my weapons as well as a one click quality-thumb operated flashlight Your failure was in not having a light, not lacking night sights. How were you prepared to positively ID your target before shooting if you couldn't even see your own pistol sights? Light or no light, when I yell for them to leave now and they fail to leave immediately or announce themselves they have a serious problem on their hands. Wrong, you will have a very big problem on your hands when the police arrive. |
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Quoted:
It's ridiculous to me that you pretend to fictionalize the fact that the vast majority of self-defense shootings occur no further than about 5 yards. I've said no such thing. In fact, I'm on record saying quite the opposite on a number of occasions...like in this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=19&t=228378 Note the big picture that is posted first thing in the thread, which shows in big legible letters "Range: 10 yards or less" The "ridiculous" bits remain your original assertions, namely: - you should be able to point and shoot at anything within self-defense range - I have had 100% success with reflexive point-shooting to ranges of about 30ft. - Unless you are a complete novice and flinch/pull your shots really bad it would be hard to miss COM at the ranges at which self-defense shootings occur at 95+% of the time. So to illustrate what ridiculous truly is, let's examine those assertions carefully. You should be able to point shoot at anything within self defense range This tells me that your level of experience is fairly low, consisting mainly of square range practice under ideal conditions. Here's the problem: Gunfights don't happen from static positions against static targets under ideal lighting conditions. They generally happen in low light with the parties involved in the gunfight moving around quite a bit. Now there is a mountain of statistical evidence from organizations like the FBI that shows those facts to be true. There are also a large number of shootings on videotape that organizations like the FBI collect and study for the purpose of figuring out what happens in real gunfights. The critical flaw in your thinking is that because you can make a hit somewhere on a target by point shooting under ideal conditions that your version of it is satisfactory for real world performance. It is not. In your "research" about gunfights you should have come across the fact that a large majority of shots fired in a gunfight miss the intended target. They miss for a number of reasons, but the biggest is because the dominant human instinct when presented with a threat is to point the gun in the general direction of the threat and pull the trigger until the bad man goes away. Those misses? All of those bullets end up somewhere, and if you launched it, you are going to have to answer for it. The police officer is generally indemnified against liability by his police department...are you indemnified against liability in the event of a shooting? Probably not. Of a more critical concern, misses do not stop the hostile actions of a criminal aggressor. Hits do, more specifically hits in vital organs. A missed shot is an extra opportunity for the bad guy to hurt you. The difference between the person who makes the hits in a gunfight and the person who is completely out of control is: Training. Training is not just about the number of trigger pulls someone has under their belt, it's about the standards they hold themselves to and the quality of the assumptions that underlies the way they've ordered their preparation for a critical moment. I have had 100% success with reflexive point-shooting to ranges of about 30ft. 3 feet equals a yard. 30/3 = 10. So you are telling me that at 10 yards you have 100% success (defined as never missing the intended target) under any circumstances when point shooting. This would include shooting on the move, shooting on the move at a moving target, shooting in low light/no light, shooting on the move in low light/no light, and shooting on the move on a moving target in low light/no light situations, right? Oh, and the target area is no bigger than the spread of your hand, right? I doubt it. I doubt it because I've done all of that stuff and I've watched lots of other people do all that stuff and based on that experience, as well as the related experience of other people who are much smarter than me...people like this guy: ...as well as personally spending a not insignificant amount of time trying to shoot guns without a useful low-light aiming reference compared to guns with useful low-light aiming references, I've come to the definite conclusion that some sort of low light aiming reference beats the dickens out of having no low-light aiming reference when it comes to putting bullets on target. Properly arranged night sights or (even better) a good laser on a handgun give you the ability to have an accurate aiming reference while still maintaining your visual focus on a threat. You simply superimpose the glowing sights on the threat or put the dot on the threat and properly press the trigger to the rear and you're delivering lethally accurate fire. Tight groups in bright daylight on the range matter because under conditions of stress you will not mimic your peak performance on the range. I'm not a gunfighter, but I've trained under a number of guys who are legitimately gunfighters. One is famous for saying that under conditions of stress the best trained shooters in the world will be lucky if their skill level degrades by only 50%. So take those tight groups and double them. To the person who is shooting accurately that doubling in group size will probably result in hits that are still acceptable. To the person who is just hanging them on paper, that doubling will result in misses. If a person trains themselves to have some aiming reference...an imperfect iron sight picture, a laser, the fuzzy threat-focused night sight picture, or even the shilouette of the gun in some circumstances...then under stress they have a much higher likelihood of finding an acceptable aiming reference and making hits. If, however, they reason that people don't look at their sights in a gunfight and then improperly use that as a justification to avoid learning how the spectrum of sighting (especially as it relates to low light) works, then they are setting themselves up for failure. Unless you are a complete novice and flinch/pull your shots really bad it would be hard to miss COM at the ranges at which self-defense shootings occur at 95+% of the time. This statement is just silly. I can show multiple videos of gunfights where both participants emptied their guns at each other at relatively close range with no hits...and the shooters weren't all "complete novices" either. Under the stress of a gunfight accuracy is no small order. It's hard. REALLY hard, even for the very well trained. The easier you can make the process of indexing the gun on target and breaking a shot properly, the better your odds are for actually hitting the threat in something important and hopefully ending the fight. The indexing on target bit is not helped by lacking a decent low light aiming reference. Simply trying to use the Force to direct bullets into the target does not work. I know because I've tried. It's an especially poor strategy in low light. As for me personally, I know what's most important is to Have a gun and Be Able to shoot it well. I think the underlying problem with your statements is probably your definition of "shoot it well". What I would consider "well" and what you would consider "well" are probably two totally different concepts. I believe a lot of gun enthusiasts spend too much time in tactical fantasy land and have too much psychologically invested in defending their gizmos rather than understanding what's truly practical. The only people in "fantasy land" are those who have not bothered to study what happens in real fights and tried to orient their training to prepare for the realities that have been documented over and over again in statistical analysis, video footage, and the firsthand experience of people who have done the most gunfighting. Like I said before, night sights can only help you No, you said that they "couldn't hurt" and that they were "cool"...neither of which are true for a number of reasons. Any firearm you intend to use for serious social purposes NEEDS to have a low light aiming reference of some sort on it...preferably more than one. Whether that's a red dot, a laser, or night sights...it needs to be there, and you need to know how to use it because the stats tell us that when it comes time to actually use your firearm it will most likely be under conditions of low light. You also need to understand that circumstances will dictate the shot you take...not you. You won't get to pick what size target you will be required to hit in order to stop the threat, or how fast you'll have to hit it, or just about anything else in the fight. All of that will be dictated to you by circumstances. If we want to talk "fantasy land", let's talk about the notion many people have that a gunfight is going to happen on their terms. THAT is a fantasy. - I am not knocking them. Bottom line: my current CCW doesn't have them and I'm not worried about it. I've spent a considerable amount of time doing low light training, including high quality instruction from some of the world's leading experts. All of my carry guns carry some sort of low light aiming reference because in all that training I've tried to figure out the best way to ensure that I can put bullets where they need to go even in the dark. In that process I've learned some things...and consequently my equipment selection reflects lessons learned. Fifteen years ago my equipment selection would have probably looked a lot like yours...but I'm smarter than I was 15 years ago. |
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Of course.
The J-frame doesn't , and I'm strongly considering Crimson Traces for it , just as much for dry-fire practice as self-defense. In addition to the practicality of them for shooting in low-light , another thing I really like about them is that you can spot your gun on the nightstand/floor. To me it's comforting to just glance in the direction of the gun while in bed and be able to see exactly where it is. As for the instinctive vs. aimed shooting debate? I think elements of both styles make for good results for me. Nightsights are still a great add-on though IMO. Picking up that front site is critical , and your responsibility. A brighter more eye-catching sight makes that easier. -JC |
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