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Posted: 4/15/2010 9:48:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2010 9:49:32 AM EDT by goodoleboy]
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 11:29:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 11:54:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 12:14:17 PM EDT
No way. Very few (if any) benefits of +P ammo in .45ACP.
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 1:06:43 PM EDT
If the .45 needed +p pressures to be effective, it would have never attained the reputation for effectiveness that it now has.

That reputation was built on standard pressure ammunition.

Neither pressure or penetration correlate well to cartridge effectiveness.

Link Posted: 4/15/2010 1:20:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2010 1:21:26 PM EDT by kevin44mag]
not needed but look at the differences exp and pen when win t series is used.... with win ranger t id use +p..

Link Posted: 4/15/2010 1:32:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grendelbane:
If the .45 needed +p pressures to be effective, it would have never attained the reputation for effectiveness that it now has.

That reputation was built on standard pressure ammunition.

Neither pressure or penetration correlate well to cartridge effectiveness.



You are correct on pressure––––but flat wrong on penetration. If a round fails to reliably penetrate far enough to disrupt the vital structures in the thoracic cavity then it is of very little use. If, on the other hand, it does, then it can be effective.
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 1:59:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 2:04:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..



Looks like .357 sig is your winner based on that......
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 2:17:59 PM EDT
What about bonded ammo for penetration?
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 3:11:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2010 3:15:18 PM EDT by goodoleboy]
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..



Looks like .357 sig is your winner based on that......


Well i like to stick with the ,45 since i just got it..But I wont get a .357 due to ammo prices as the 9mm can already do it at a fraction of costs of training and defense ammo..I can always switch back to the 9mm since i know it will penetrate and I already own the gun and mags for 9mm..But like to find a .45 round that can defeat tempered safety glass like you see in convenience store doors..Kinda bought the 45 on whim at the last gun show.

When I carry the 9mm I have a mag of gold dot, Ranger t +P, and then a Mag of Nato +p ball..
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 3:12:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lovetohunt:
What about bonded ammo for penetration?


Yup. 147 grain Gold Dots in 9mm (or Winchester RA9B, my personal load,) or 230 grain Gold Dots in .45ACP will both serve you fine.
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 3:14:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..



Looks like .357 sig is your winner based on that......


Well i like to stick with the ,45 since i just got it..But I wont get a .357 due to ammo prices..I can always switch back to the 9mm since i know it will penetrate..But like to find a .45 round that can defeat tempered safety glass like you see in convenience store doors..


See my post above––––either will do what you need with the right ammo. I personally go with a 9mm for capacity and easier follow up shots.
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 3:17:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2010 3:21:06 PM EDT by goodoleboy]
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..



Looks like .357 sig is your winner based on that......


Well i like to stick with the ,45 since i just got it..But I wont get a .357 due to ammo prices..I can always switch back to the 9mm since i know it will penetrate..But like to find a .45 round that can defeat tempered safety glass like you see in convenience store doors..


See my post above––––either will do what you need with the right ammo. I personally go with a 9mm for capacity and easier follow up shots.


Thanks for responsidng, I may consider going back to the 9mm and reserve the .45 for a range toy I guess but will also research some more.Really its a matter of safet..I like to think I am alert enough at work to be able to have the clerk lock the doors electronically then fire through glass as a last resort to protect life.. I thought the 115 and 124 had more penetration than 147 grain though? The 230 grain I have on hand is Ranger +P which i guess wont hurt in helping the big .45 penetrate, or no?
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 3:50:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..



Looks like .357 sig is your winner based on that......


Well i like to stick with the ,45 since i just got it..But I wont get a .357 due to ammo prices..I can always switch back to the 9mm since i know it will penetrate..But like to find a .45 round that can defeat tempered safety glass like you see in convenience store doors..


See my post above––––either will do what you need with the right ammo. I personally go with a 9mm for capacity and easier follow up shots.


Thanks for responsidng, I may consider going back to the 9mm and reserve the .45 for a range toy I guess but will also research some more.Really its a matter of safet..I like to think I am alert enough at work to be able to have the clerk lock the doors electronically then fire through glass as a last resort to protect life.. I thought the 115 and 124 had more penetration than 147 grain though? The 230 grain I have on hand is Ranger +P which i guess wont hurt in helping the big .45 penetrate, or no?


Meh––-it won't hurt or help, really, as both 230 Ranger T and 230+P Ranger T meet the FBI minimums, but neither is bonded––––I would choose a bonded 9mm that meets the standards over either myself. Since your job may require shots through safety glass, I would suggest the same. Or choosing a bonded .45 load from the list if you are gonna keep the .45 as your primary.


As a case in point: I just got off the treadmill and am sitting in the TV room in the back, where a S&W 4566 is the room gun. Said pistol is loaded with 9 200 grain +P Gold Dots (all that we can find locally,) and the missus is content with that*––––but that load does not consistently reach the FBI minimum penetration, so I insist on having a 3913TSW handy with 8 Winchester RA9Bs on board. If I need one fast, I'll use the 3913 over the 4566 any day (until I round up some 230 Gold Dots for it.)




*There's also a Ruger SP101 loaded with Gold Dot 135+P .38 specials hidden in another place in the room, should the missus empty the 4566 without stopping an attacker––––-she won't carry on her person in the house.
Link Posted: 4/15/2010 3:53:23 PM EDT
I thought the 115 and 124 had more penetration than 147 grain though?


Sorry––missed that: No. Lighter bullets, by and large, move faster and penetrate *less* than heavier bullets in a given caliber. For the 115 or 124 over 147 in 9mm, ignore the "by and large," as that is simple fact in 9mm.
Link Posted: 4/16/2010 6:34:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..



Looks like .357 sig is your winner based on that......


Well i like to stick with the ,45 since i just got it..But I wont get a .357 due to ammo prices..I can always switch back to the 9mm since i know it will penetrate..But like to find a .45 round that can defeat tempered safety glass like you see in convenience store doors..


See my post above––––either will do what you need with the right ammo. I personally go with a 9mm for capacity and easier follow up shots.


Thanks for responsidng, I may consider going back to the 9mm and reserve the .45 for a range toy I guess but will also research some more.Really its a matter of safet..I like to think I am alert enough at work to be able to have the clerk lock the doors electronically then fire through glass as a last resort to protect life.. I thought the 115 and 124 had more penetration than 147 grain though? The 230 grain I have on hand is Ranger +P which i guess wont hurt in helping the big .45 penetrate, or no?


Meh––-it won't hurt or help, really, as both 230 Ranger T and 230+P Ranger T meet the FBI minimums, but neither is bonded––––I would choose a bonded 9mm that meets the standards over either myself. Since your job may require shots through safety glass, I would suggest the same. Or choosing a bonded .45 load from the list if you are gonna keep the .45 as your primary.


As a case in point: I just got off the treadmill and am sitting in the TV room in the back, where a S&W 4566 is the room gun. Said pistol is loaded with 9 200 grain +P Gold Dots (all that we can find locally,) and the missus is content with that*––––but that load does not consistently reach the FBI minimum penetration, so I insist on having a 3913TSW handy with 8 Winchester RA9Bs on board. If I need one fast, I'll use the 3913 over the 4566 any day (until I round up some 230 Gold Dots for it.)




*There's also a Ruger SP101 loaded with Gold Dot 135+P .38 specials hidden in another place in the room, should the missus empty the 4566 without stopping an attacker––––-she won't carry on her person in the house.


Standard ranger t 230gr gets 11.6" pen of bare gel from Winchester tests. that does not meet standards. The +p does, check out the chart above. Yes bonded penetrate deeper.
Link Posted: 4/17/2010 10:02:57 AM EDT
It depends on barrel length.

For a 5" barrel, it isn't necessary. Might be for a shorter barrel.
Link Posted: 4/17/2010 10:26:21 AM EDT
No.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 7:35:40 AM EDT
You are correct on pressure––––but flat wrong on penetration. If a round fails to reliably penetrate far enough to disrupt the vital structures in the thoracic cavity then it is of very little use. If, on the other hand, it does, then it can be effective.


I was referring to the other end of penetration. A bullet that penetrates deeper is not necessarily the better performer.

Adequate penetration is necessary, of course. So I will admit to being a tad bit short sighted in my statement, but not to being flat wrong.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 8:37:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By grendelbane:
You are correct on pressure––––but flat wrong on penetration. If a round fails to reliably penetrate far enough to disrupt the vital structures in the thoracic cavity then it is of very little use. If, on the other hand, it does, then it can be effective.


I was referring to the other end of penetration. A bullet that penetrates deeper is not necessarily the better performer.

Adequate penetration is necessary, of course. So I will admit to being a tad bit short sighted in my statement, but not to being flat wrong.


Gotcha. I misunderstood the gist of your statement.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 4:04:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
I thought the 115 and 124 had more penetration than 147 grain though?


Sorry––missed that: No. Lighter bullets, by and large, move faster and penetrate *less* than heavier bullets in a given caliber. For the 115 or 124 over 147 in 9mm, ignore the "by and large," as that is simple fact in 9mm.


124+P outpenetrated a car door every time compared to 147gr in my testing. Velocity, Energy, and bullet "nose" area are all that matter on a hard target. Sectional density doesn't factor really.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 4:54:45 PM EDT
I use 230gr Gold Dot +p .45, as well as 124gr +p 9mm.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 5:20:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2010 5:25:57 PM EDT by scotchymcdrinkerbean]
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
I thought the 115 and 124 had more penetration than 147 grain though?


Sorry––missed that: No. Lighter bullets, by and large, move faster and penetrate *less* than heavier bullets in a given caliber. For the 115 or 124 over 147 in 9mm, ignore the "by and large," as that is simple fact in 9mm.


124+P outpenetrated a car door every time compared to 147gr in my testing. Velocity, Energy, and bullet "nose" area are all that matter on a hard target. Sectional density doesn't factor really.


Interesting........any shot at me seeing some data from your testing?

And where's your dang avatar, anyway?
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 7:04:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By goodoleboy:
Since it moves so slow compared to 9mm..Does .45acp ammo need to be +p to get the penetration I want for a Self defense barrier pentration( light cover) windshields, ect.round..

Saw a thread where the .45 ammo did not penetrate aluminum 3/8" thick target but 9mm ball did.



9mm will always out penetrate .45 through hard barriers, but that has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. You do not need +p in .45 to shoot through barriers like auto glass. In barriers where BOTH .45 and 9mm penetrate, the .45 deflets less than 9mm.

If you REALLY want to shoot through harder barriers, then go with .357 sig.


I have a armed courier business I escort ATM techs during repairs..I just got the .45 and wanted something that will do it all and a change from 9mm..Barrier penetration is a must as is stopping power..



Looks like .357 sig is your winner based on that......


Well i like to stick with the ,45 since i just got it..But I wont get a .357 due to ammo prices as the 9mm can already do it at a fraction of costs of training and defense ammo..I can always switch back to the 9mm since i know it will penetrate and I already own the gun and mags for 9mm..But like to find a .45 round that can defeat tempered safety glass like you see in convenience store doors..Kinda bought the 45 on whim at the last gun show.

When I carry the 9mm I have a mag of gold dot, Ranger t +P, and then a Mag of Nato +p ball..


That's fair. 9mm will out penetrate .45 against HARD targets with the lighter weight bullets doing better then the heavier. Like I said and you really have to weigh the pros and cons, but .357 sig will beat them all (again, I'm talking hard targets and not flesh where they are all about the same).

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 8:25:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2010 8:32:29 PM EDT by 12_gauge]
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
I thought the 115 and 124 had more penetration than 147 grain though?


Sorry––missed that: No. Lighter bullets, by and large, move faster and penetrate *less* than heavier bullets in a given caliber. For the 115 or 124 over 147 in 9mm, ignore the "by and large," as that is simple fact in 9mm.


124+P outpenetrated a car door every time compared to 147gr in my testing. Velocity, Energy, and bullet "nose" area are all that matter on a hard target. Sectional density doesn't factor really.


Interesting........any shot at me seeing some data from your testing?

And where's your dang avatar, anyway?


As to my avatar...which now works...and my inbox...which is now bigger...SOMEONE! gets a huge thankyou from me. Not sure who, but they do!

My test data was shooting a car door in my back yard, shooting pine-boards, etc.

HOWEVER!

Old Painless has done some testing that backs mine up nicely (Velocity and energy and cross-section > SD on hard targets). He was good enough to photograph it for you as well. Here you go:
http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 9:13:16 PM EDT
Thanks––––I'll stick with RA9B and Gold Dot 147s though.
Link Posted: 4/18/2010 9:14:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Thanks––––I'll stick with RA9B and Gold Dot 147s though.


Unless you shoot a lot of cars it sounds like as good a choice as any to me.

Link Posted: 4/18/2010 9:22:36 PM EDT
Well, technically, I'm limited to 180 grain Gold Dots in my issue .40, or 115 Silvertips in 9mm........but I pretty much ignore the authorized list, especially considering that the listed options other than Silvertips for the 9 are "9mm 180 grain Gold Dots," and some 90 grain Zero brand practice ammo If someone can find me some 180 grain 9mms, or some 90 grain bullets that work, I'll gladly try them out.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 3:19:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scotchymcdrinkerbean:
Well, technically, I'm limited to 180 grain Gold Dots in my issue .40, or 115 Silvertips in 9mm........but I pretty much ignore the authorized list, especially considering that the listed options other than Silvertips for the 9 are "9mm 180 grain Gold Dots," and some 90 grain Zero brand practice ammo If someone can find me some 180 grain 9mms, or some 90 grain bullets that work, I'll gladly try them out.


SPD/BPD has had very good luck with the 180gr GDHP they are issued, at least, I think it's 180. I could be wrong, it might be 165. I know Caddo uses Ranger T and it does well for them also. Most OIS's I have discussed with officers result in death of the suspect if a solid hit is achieved. Defiant action ceases immediately most of the time.
Link Posted: 4/19/2010 5:43:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:

As to my avatar...which now works...and my inbox...which is now bigger...SOMEONE! gets a huge thankyou from me. Not sure who, but they do!

My test data was shooting a car door in my back yard, shooting pine-boards, etc.

HOWEVER!

Old Painless has done some testing that backs mine up nicely (Velocity and energy and cross-section > SD on hard targets). He was good enough to photograph it for you as well. Here you go:
http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm


Old_painless didn't do that shoot...it was Dukesnookems. Although admittedly he was copying Old_P's style.
Link Posted: 4/20/2010 9:31:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:

As to my avatar...which now works...and my inbox...which is now bigger...SOMEONE! gets a huge thankyou from me. Not sure who, but they do!

My test data was shooting a car door in my back yard, shooting pine-boards, etc.

HOWEVER!

Old Painless has done some testing that backs mine up nicely (Velocity and energy and cross-section > SD on hard targets). He was good enough to photograph it for you as well. Here you go:
http://intrencik.com/357sig.htm


Old_painless didn't do that shoot...it was Dukesnookems. Although admittedly he was copying Old_P's style.


My mistake. Results are the same.
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