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Posted: 11/15/2012 12:53:33 PM EST
My son is going into the Air Force ROTC program. I understand the sidearm they issue in the Air Force is the Beretta M9. My son has grown up shooting a Glock 19. I would like to pick up a used version of the pistol he will be shooting in the Air Force so he can practice up. Is there a significant difference between the more expensive Beretta M9 and the less expensive Taurus PT-92? They look very similar to me? The only purpose of me buying this gun is to give him a leg up when it comes time for qualifications and to allow him time to learn how to disassemble and clean it ahead of any boot camp.

Any input you might have on the differences or similarities of these two firearms would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Gary
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 1:36:50 PM EST
Safety location is the big one. The Beretta has a safety/decocker mounted to the slide. The Taurus safety is mounted to the frame similar in location to a 1911.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 1:45:39 PM EST
Look around for a used Beretta. I've seen some recently for around $400.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 2:08:35 PM EST
As mentioned, the location of the safety is the main difference, at least Taurus got something right with it.

Get him a used Beretta, it doesn't make any easier to get used to one weapon system and then transition to an almost identical one with a different safety placement.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 2:26:32 PM EST
Thank you all. I take it the Beretta 92FS and the M9 are basically the same gun?
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 2:40:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By LastDefender:I take it the Beretta 92FS and the M9 are basically the same gun?

Yes, but there are a few minor differences. The roll-marks will be different. The 92FS typically has 3-dot sights while the M9 has a white dot in the front post with a single white half-circle in the rear sight. A newer 92FS will have a slanted dust cover and scalloped back-strap. An older 92FS and all M9s will have the straight dust cover and non-scalloped back strap.

Functionally, they are identical.

Link Posted: 11/15/2012 3:06:04 PM EST
I would buy him an M9 on principle alone. It would be a cool gift from a father for his son enlisting.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 4:16:52 PM EST
They do not share the same magazines despite being very similar. I would go with the M9 even if it was used.




Link Posted: 11/15/2012 5:12:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/15/2012 5:24:12 PM EST by gee223]
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals. No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 6:02:37 PM EST
friends do not let friends buy taurus.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 6:11:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
friends do not let friends buy taurus.


The Taurus PT-92's are excellent firearms. There are however very few other models I would recommend.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 6:14:16 PM EST
I would get him the Beretta just to follow the same manual of arms.

As far as those talking badly about the Taurus go, I wonder how many have ever fired/owned a PT92.

It's generally regarded as Taurus' best pistol, and one they've consistently built right for years.

Link Posted: 11/15/2012 6:26:36 PM EST
Beretta, and do not look back.
Link Posted: 11/15/2012 8:20:17 PM EST
Just so you know qualification on M9 is extremely easy, he does not need to "practice up" to qualify expert if he has half a clue how to shoot a pistol. Other than quals, if he even has them with his unit especially in the air force, he willnot shoot the m9 hardly ever.
If your just lookin for a reason to get him a gift, either will be great but Yes the M9 is more appropriate, or 92FS
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 12:24:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By gee223:
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals . No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.




I'm horrified but intrigued... I mean.... why?

I want to see it, but I don't.

Please post pics of this gilded turd... you may just have the highest quality Taurus 1911 in existence...

OP - get a Beretta M9.

Not sure if they still make them, but they used to make commemorative "Service" editions that came with colored Aluma-grips (blue for Air Force) along with the standard grips.

~Augee
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 12:31:05 AM EST
If you want to get him a gun, fine. But the Beretta field strips in about two seconds to a barrel, spring, top piece and a lower. That's if they even have to qualify, which my wife never did. Don't sweat it too much - first pistol I ever shot was the M9, and I scored sharpshooter the first time I picked it up. Really, you're over thinking things.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 1:15:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By gee223:
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals. No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.


The PT92 is the exception. Highly reliable firearm.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 1:41:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Burnsy87:
Originally Posted By gee223:
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals. No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.


The PT92 is the exception. Highly reliable firearm.


My dad had a 1988 built PT99 and it was a very reliable pistol and extremely accurate. A friend of mine shoots a newer pt99 with rail in USPSA and has never had an issue with it.

Like others have said, the PT92/99 from Taurus actually seem to be very nice guns, and the safety is a huge improvement over the Beretta.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 3:12:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Burnsy87:
Originally Posted By gee223:
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals. No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.


The PT92 is the exception. Highly reliable firearm.


I had a PT92 that I bought new in 1990 that was 100% reliable. Fed everything I put in it.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 4:01:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
Originally Posted By Burnsy87:
Originally Posted By gee223:
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals. No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.


The PT92 is the exception. Highly reliable firearm.


I had a PT92 that I bought new in 1990 that was 100% reliable. Fed everything I put in it.


Me too - bought the same year as well. It was my first HG. My PT92 never, I mean NEVER FTFd or FTEd. My only issue was that I aquired many HGs after the 92 and I was a much better shot with the glocks, 1911s and revolvers
that came along after the 92. It was me - not the gun as other shooters than shot my 92 were more accurate than I ever was. I tried selling it a couple of times but ended up trading it (and another POS pistol) at a police buyback program
and walked out with $400 and promptly aquired a G17.

Link Posted: 11/16/2012 5:08:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2012 5:11:56 AM EST by gee223]
Originally Posted By EdB:
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
Originally Posted By Burnsy87:
Originally Posted By gee223:
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals. No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.


The PT92 is the exception. Highly reliable firearm.


I had a PT92 that I bought new in 1990 that was 100% reliable. Fed everything I put in it.


Me too - bought the same year as well. It was my first HG. My PT92 never, I mean NEVER FTFd or FTEd. My only issue was that I aquired many HGs after the 92 and I was a much better shot with the glocks, 1911s and revolvers
that came along after the 92. It was me - not the gun as other shooters than shot my 92 were more accurate than I ever was. I tried selling it a couple of times but ended up trading it (and another POS pistol) at a police buyback program
and walked out with $400 and promptly aquired a G17.



I don't know if I got an early model or what, but the MIM internals were the worst I'd ever seen. The second I took a stone to the sear the edge almost chipped away in spots. It looked literally like Swiss cheese, it was the damnedest thing I ever saw.

To be clear, they were Wilson's Value line, LOL. Also MIM, but you really had to look to tell.

Link Posted: 11/16/2012 6:05:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
friends do not let friends buy taurus.


This. Taurus sucks.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 7:27:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Alex_B69:
They do not share the same magazines despite being very similar. I would go with the M9 even if it was used.






If memory serves, you can use Taurus mags in a Beretta but not the reverse.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 8:09:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ameshawki:
Originally Posted By Alex_B69:
They do not share the same magazines despite being very similar. I would go with the M9 even if it was used.






If memory serves, you can use Taurus mags in a Beretta but not the reverse.


I believe the notch in the Beretta mag for the mag catch is smaller than the Taurus. Someone gave me a Ramline Beretta mag and I opened up the slot with a file so it would latch into the Taurus.

If I had it to do over again I would just buy the Beretta to begin with. I sold the Taurus three years ago to fund my 6.8 project.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 8:11:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By EdB:
Originally Posted By SPTiger:
Originally Posted By Burnsy87:
Originally Posted By gee223:
Taurus builds firearms out of dung, Beretta uses quality components. I bought a new Pt1911 and had to rebuild it with Wilson Combat internals. No it's not the same gun, but after seeing the sort of shit they stuff into their products I'll never buy another Taurus. Look around at the warranty repair turn around times. They aren't taking months to get guns back to people just because they are slow, it's a high volume issue.


The PT92 is the exception. Highly reliable firearm.


I had a PT92 that I bought new in 1990 that was 100% reliable. Fed everything I put in it.


Me too - bought the same year as well. It was my first HG. My PT92 never, I mean NEVER FTFd or FTEd. My only issue was that I aquired many HGs after the 92 and I was a much better shot with the glocks, 1911s and revolvers
that came along after the 92. It was me - not the gun as other shooters than shot my 92 were more accurate than I ever was. I tried selling it a couple of times but ended up trading it (and another POS pistol) at a police buyback program
and walked out with $400 and promptly aquired a G17.



I love the G17. I wasn't that good at shooting my Taurus either, but then again I didn't really dedicate myself to shooting it consistent enough to get good with it. I sold it to a coworker three years ago and he's been very happy with it.

Link Posted: 11/16/2012 10:48:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2012 10:55:57 AM EST by TAP]
Just so you know qualification on M9 is extremely easy, he does not need to "practice up" to qualify expert if he has half a clue how to shoot a pistol.

+1

If you want to give it to him as a gift, that's fine. But there's just no need to do so in terms of helping him out- he won't need it at all, even if he is in the minority of AF folks who have to qual with it. Or ever shoot it, for that matter.

Every time I've gone to the M9 range, I've had my driver qual with my pistol after about 3 minutes of training. Several of them had never fired a handgun before, and never once did any of them fail to qualify. Most shot "expert".

If you want to give him an M9 or pseudo-clone as gift, so be it. If you want to give him a gift that helps him out in his service, I'd suggest you wait until he knows where he's stationed and what he's doing.

ETA- hold on, you said ROTC program. That double reinforces my comments. Any program that is decent will give him all the training he needs, and then some, if they even touch the M9 once- which most AF ROTC programs don't. And if he is in the 1/3 of the "on track" AF cadets who end up entering the AF, you can evaluate what he needs then.

And if by chance he's going into the program at VMI, send me a PM.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 10:54:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2012 10:55:13 AM EST by Lakemoor]
If you want to help him out buy him some uniforms when he graduates and commissions. Lot of kids start ROTC, doesn't mean they get commissioned. My parents bought me custom made greens and blues, Army. Was really nice gesture but a real waste of money. Off the rack would be just fine.

Edit: 2 is 1
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 12:40:01 PM EST
Thank you to all who have responded.

Gary
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 12:51:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By TAP:
Just so you know qualification on M9 is extremely easy, he does not need to "practice up" to qualify expert if he has half a clue how to shoot a pistol.

+1

If you want to give it to him as a gift, that's fine. But there's just no need to do so in terms of helping him out- he won't need it at all, even if he is in the minority of AF folks who have to qual with it. Or ever shoot it, for that matter.

Every time I've gone to the M9 range, I've had my driver qual with my pistol after about 3 minutes of training. Several of them had never fired a handgun before, and never once did any of them fail to qualify. Most shot "expert".

If you want to give him an M9 or pseudo-clone as gift, so be it. If you want to give him a gift that helps him out in his service, I'd suggest you wait until he knows where he's stationed and what he's doing.

ETA- hold on, you said ROTC program. That double reinforces my comments. Any program that is decent will give him all the training he needs, and then some, if they even touch the M9 once- which most AF ROTC programs don't. And if he is in the 1/3 of the "on track" AF cadets who end up entering the AF, you can evaluate what he needs then.

And if by chance he's going into the program at VMI, send me a PM.



All this. If he's got several years of school left, put the money towards tuition!
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 2:11:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2012 2:11:54 PM EST by 1911smith]
Don't know how Air Force does things but having a son in Army I can share what I can of that. Basic was zero handgun other than, "hey by the way this is an M9, you won't be issued one but this is what it looks like." The rifle is an infantrymans life. That would be my focus but I'll share this. Whatever you teach him the first thing military service does is unteach them. Things I know he learned from me were unlearned and relearned Army way. As a parent YOU WILL FEEL A SUDDEN DISCONNECT. Spend all the time you can with him before basic. The boy you send to basic is not the young man you will get back. My brother was AF, he compares AF basic to Army basic and says "we got basic, light." Nothing like Army. He was comparing Cold War basic to Iraqi Freedom basic. He said the mental conditioning is the same. So I'd focus on anything but your son's upcoming basic training. Have Fun.
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 2:15:19 PM EST
one is a quality made pistol; the other is a POS
Link Posted: 11/16/2012 2:44:23 PM EST
He doesn't need a pistol to practice. Unfortunately, it's not that important of a skill in the Air Force.
If you really want to get him something useful, I'd suggest the Haley Strategic Adaptive Carbine and Adaptive Pistol DVD's AFTER he receives weapons training. It will teach him important things they gloss over in his military training.

A M9 would be a pretty sweet gift though. I'd give it to him after he has his initial weapons training. Bad habits are hard to break.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/17/2012 5:40:11 AM EST
Keep in mind there is no basic / bootcamp for ROTC commissionees. He goes through the 4yr program while earning his degree, and that program will indeed involve some training in the summers. But none of those are the same basic that folks go through after enlisting.

Once commissioned, he will then have his basic officers school of some kind- that will be his first real training of his active career, and that's four years away.
Link Posted: 11/17/2012 6:16:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gelgoog:
friends do not let friends buy taurus.


One of the most true things I ever read on ARFCOM. Definitely get the Beretta.


Link Posted: 11/18/2012 2:49:10 AM EST
Great info all. Thanks. For those who may have been in a similar situation or have had a child in ROTC, can you offer any advice? Here is what I told him so far:

1. Run at least one mile every day.
2. Focus on your studies (he's transfering into an ROTC approved college from a non-ROTC approved school)
3. Stay away for booze and other substances.
4. Run some more.

Link Posted: 11/18/2012 5:28:54 AM EST
I still have my PT92 with thousands and thousands of rounds through it.
infact my wife has it in her purse right now on guard duty while the S&W 60 is awaiting new grips
anyone that writes off the pt92 or tells you their junk just because its made by taurus, has never owned one.
I have yet to find a single PT92 that hasnt been 100% reliable. taurus puts out some crap but the pt92/99 do not deserve the same reputation
as the company.

with that said, if he wants something to practice on, get him the beretta, no need in getting him a gun with a different safety than what his trying to practice.
Link Posted: 11/18/2012 1:52:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/18/2012 1:52:36 PM EST by 1911smith]
Originally Posted By LastDefender:
Great info all. Thanks. For those who may have been in a similar situation or have had a child in ROTC, can you offer any advice? Here is what I told him so far:

1. Run at least one mile every day.
2. Focus on your studies (he's transfering into an ROTC approved college from a non-ROTC approved school)
3. Stay away for booze and other substances.
4. Run some more.



Booze and broads have shortened many a soldiers/defense contractors career. Mine did 3 tours Iraq and now employed by a North Carolina based defense contractor. Fraternity mentality is a real problem for theses guys and they're sucked into it quickly. Running and studying is spot on.
Link Posted: 11/18/2012 3:58:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/18/2012 4:32:29 PM EST by AASG]
Originally Posted By 50-140:
As mentioned, the location of the safety is the main difference, at least Taurus got something right with it.

Get him a used Beretta, it doesn't make any easier to get used to one weapon system and then transition to an almost identical one with a different safety placement.


I used to think that Taurus changed the berreta design slitely, but then I discovered that actually very early berreta model 92s had the frame mounted safety. I had always been told that taurus bought berreta tooling and apperently this is the case. Berreta set up to make model 92s in south america for the military there, then sold the factory to taurus when the contract was over.
The Taurus 92 is the only taurus I'd own. I own several and you can find them dirt cheap and you can modify GI M9 mags to fit it. I'll always buy a cheap Taurus 92 if I see one. Great gun. Locking block ears are the only thing that ever breaks, same as the M9.

ETA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_92
___________________
"92

Production began in May, 1976, and ended in February, 1983. Between 7,000 to 9,500 units were of the first "step slide" design and the rest were of the second "straight slide" type. The total production was 52,000. (Note: the total number of units produced as well as "step slide" units produced is frequently misquotes in other sources. For example: 1. Blue Book indicated total number produced as 5,000, a number 10 times smaller then actual production! 2. berettacollection.com website states "approx. 5000" to the number of "step slide" units produced which is close but off by a few thousand)

[edit] 92S

In order to meet requirements of some law enforcement agencies, Beretta modified the Beretta 92 by adding a slide-mounted combined safety and decocking lever, replacing the frame mounted manual thumb safety. This resulted in the 92S which was adopted by several Italian law enforcement and military units. The later relocation of the magazine release button means these models (92 & 92S) cannot necessarily use later magazines, unless they have notches in both areas.
.......
Copies

The Beretta 92 was designed for sports and law enforcement use and, due to its reliability, was accepted by military users in South America.

A large contract for the Beretta 92 was with the Brazilian army, for which Beretta set up a factory in Brazil. This factory was later sold to the Brazilian gunmaker Taurus (Forjas Taurus S/A ). Taurus makes these pistols (called the PT92) without the need for a license from Beretta since their design is based on the original Beretta 92, whose patents have since expired. The PT92 can be distinguished from its modern Beretta counterpart primarily by having the safety mounted on the frame as opposed to on the slide like the Beretta. Though mechanically similar to the original, the PT92s differ from the early 92s by having a trigger guard similar to the modern 92s (the originals were rounded) and a magazine release in the same place as the modern 92s (the originals were at the bottom of the grip.)"
Link Posted: 11/18/2012 7:32:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/18/2012 7:33:06 PM EST by gogetumnow]
I bought a PT-92 on a whim a number of years ago. Could never get it working right. Always had failures to eject/stovepipes. Tried to replace extractor, extractor springs, pin etc. Still no luck. Had to use Beretta parts to try to fix it because Taurus wouldn't sell me any parts. They wanted me to send it in. No way, had to send my Taurus 85 3 times to get it right on my dime (long story), wasn't going to play that game.

Spun it off with full disclosure to the buyer for a deal. Picked up a Beretta 92 the same day. Never a problem, accurate as hell, great gun, very well made, high QC.

I will say that Taurus got it right with that frame mounted safety. Too bad the rest of the gun was a turd. If you've got one that works count yourself lucky, hold on to it, and pray you don't ever need customer service.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 3:01:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By LastDefender:
Great info all. Thanks. For those who may have been in a similar situation or have had a child in ROTC, can you offer any advice? Here is what I told him so far:

1. Run at least one mile every day.
2. Focus on your studies (he's transfering into an ROTC approved college from a non-ROTC approved school)
3. Stay away for booze and other substances.
4. Run some more.

Your advice is generally on target.

You should find out what is used currently by the AF to generate their order of merit list (OML). It's a formula, and will give you the numeric weightings of PT score, GPA, etc. That OML will decide if he gets what he wants, or even is offered a commission at all, so learning that and then targetting his actions appropriately can be a smart way to go.

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:57:21 AM EST
Thanks TAP! I will begin my research at once!
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:04:45 AM EST
I commission in May through Army ROTC, and also currently enlisted in the guard. All your son needs to do is...

Right time, right place, right uniform, right attitude.
Focus on grades first, everything else comes second.

We usually laugh at the AF PT as were puking and they are playing basketball (but also we are quite jealous).
Not trying to poke fun at the Air Force though. Have a few friends in the program. Its much more mentally challenging than physical.

Grades will ultimately determine your sons career. Extend a thanks for serving from all of us.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 1:21:12 PM EST
Thank you zbburch.... Good luck with your career and thank you for your service.
Link Posted: 11/21/2012 12:02:11 PM EST
The only Taurus and Beretta models that will exchange magazines are those with the mag catches at the lower left side of the frame. Both companies kept the extra notch in the magazine tube for the original mag catch even after moving the mag catch to the current trigger guard location.
Link Posted: 11/22/2012 6:42:05 AM EST
Look at the ati 92. I love mine, all beretta parts and mags work and its a far better quality than taurus. My ati 92 was 299 new from cdnn
Link Posted: 11/23/2012 11:42:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By LastDefender:
Great info all. Thanks. For those who may have been in a similar situation or have had a child in ROTC, can you offer any advice? Here is what I told him so far:

1. Run at least one mile every day.
2. Focus on your studies (he's transfering into an ROTC approved college from a non-ROTC approved school)
3. Stay away for booze and other substances.
4. Run some more.



Very good advice you've given. I did a total of 11 years and 11 months of AD USAF as a 2A676 on the B-2 at Whiteman AFB. It was my only base. I was in it for the long haul, but unfortunately, my back gave out and I was medically discharged, honorably. As an aircraft mechanic, I never shot the M9; I was an expert with the M-16A2.

As much as vagina is good, limit yourself. At the root of every man's problems is a woman, if you dig deep enough. Take care of yourself first so you can find a good woman who will take care of you. Be wary of the infamous Depend-a-saurus Rex. You've been warned!
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