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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 6/29/2008 4:00:35 PM EST
Hi, I'm new to CC, will be taking my class next week. Anyway I have heard many different claims about the laws concerning shootings in self defense and prosecution efforts regarding chosen calibers, gun type, and ammunition. I will be asking these same questions in my ccp class but wanted to get some input from people of this and a few other forums.

I guess that my question is: What are the preferred calibers, weapon type, and ammunition type in regards to leaving the prosecution, should you be prosecuted or sued, the least amount of opportunities to portray you as a trigger happy, gun toter just looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

An example of some things I've heard are that you should choose non magnum calibers becasue the magnum can be exploited in court. Also that hollow point or other destructive type rounds that can cause large wounds and trauma (which would seem preferable for stopping an attacker) should possibly be avioded as well. I've heard the Glaser rounds cause pretty serious wounds and leave a prosecution angles to exploit.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

I tried searching before posting this but couldn't seem to find the info I was hoping for.

Thanks.
Dan
Link Posted: 6/29/2008 5:31:22 PM EST
Glad to hear another tarheel is taking the CHP course! Don't worry about the internet legends on what gun or cal is the "EVIL" one, just make your choice based on what you can shoot, conceal, and afford. That is the way I teach the course. If you ever do shoot, type of equipment will be the least of your concerns. Ask your instructor when you take the class and take it from there. I personally wouldn't carry anything other than a good jacketed hollow point. In a gun fight you're only option is to win, don't handicap yourself by listening to the MMQB's and net law junkies. Good luck and keep us posted!
Link Posted: 6/29/2008 5:36:45 PM EST
Carry what you are comfortable with shooting and use good JHP Rounds. I carry a 9mm Glock 19, and I use Winchester Ranger 124 gr. +P JHP's.

I would not worry too much about the risk of using a certain caliber or ammo. As long as you are carrying something that is common like a 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP, .38, or .357 mag you are fine. These are all rounds that are typically used by LE and Security Firms and they use JHP Rounds also.

If you are using a caliber and bullet type that is used by LE Agencies then I think it would be easy to make the case that you were not using anything excessive. I would not recommend using reloads or a very larger caliber weapon. Those might open you up to more scrutiny by a DA or Grand Jury if you had to use the weapon in Self Defense.

As I was always taught it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. Just use your head, know your local laws regarding self defense, stay within the law, and you will be fine.
Link Posted: 6/29/2008 6:02:19 PM EST
Ayoob has written a lot about this topic and I've heard lots of different view points.

A couple of points that I found valid where:
1. Use ammo that local LE uses. Prosecutor: "Why were you using extra lethal hollow point bulltets?" You: "That's the same ammo our local sheriff's dept. uses to help keep our town safe.". LE's generally don't skimp on their ammo, RSXT, GD, HST, etc. I like Gold Dots because they don't have "LE Only" on the box.
2. Don't use a gun with an "aggressive" name. A "Kimbfield Charle's Bronson Edition Terminator Tactical .45 Automatic" won't sound good in court and the Prosecutor will certainly repeat a name like that 100 times during trial trying to paint you as a vigilianty who was out for blood. Glock 19 or H&K USP are pretty innocuous names.

Link Posted: 6/29/2008 6:52:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/29/2008 7:26:08 PM EST
I'll second (or maybe third) the idea that if you're concerned with a court case then using the same ammo, caliber and even gun that your local LEO's use is a sound idea.

However, it's worth considering that a good shoot is still a good shoot no matter what gun/ammo you used, it's when it's not so clear that things like ammo, hand loads, bullet type and disingenuous prosecutors come into play.

To me, nothing is more important than living to get to that point, so I carry what I feel will be the most effective gun/caliber/ammo combination.
Link Posted: 6/30/2008 6:46:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
I'll second (or maybe third) the idea that if you're concerned with a court case then using the same ammo, caliber and even gun that your local LEO's use is a sound idea.

However, it's worth considering that a good shoot is still a good shoot no matter what gun/ammo you used, it's when it's not so clear that things like ammo, hand loads, bullet type and disingenuous prosecutors come into play.

To me, nothing is more important than living to get to that point, so I carry what I feel will be the most effective gun/caliber/ammo combination.


I agree with you there. However, things aren't always that cut and dry. "The Ayoob Files" (both the magazine column and the book) are full of examples of "good shoots" that left a lot of room for interpretation by LE and the prosecutor, not to mention the civil case that is likely to arise. I hope to God that if someday I encounter the worst case scenario that it is someone who has a bunch of priors for armed robbery and the whole thing is caught on CCTV to leave no room for interpretation.
Link Posted: 6/30/2008 6:57:00 AM EST
Reloaded ammo could be an issue and ammo with a name
like Terminator possibly.

Use the same ammo the cops use
Link Posted: 6/30/2008 2:44:44 PM EST
+1 to the local law enforcement. I'm actually trying to stock up with the same .45 rounds my local PD uses. (I believe that they're the Federal +Ps)
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 4:00:55 PM EST
Why would reloaded ammo be an issue?
I cant work this one out.
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 4:43:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 5:32:33 PM EST
Follow state laws, if you aren't in NJ you probably don't have anything to worry about.


Carry the best modern JHP load you can. Or reloads if you want (I'd recommend commercial loads for pistols though). In the end it doesn't matter cause a good shoot is a GOOD SHOOT. Ayoob may not like it; but I've yet to see a case where ammo selection affected the outcome of a trial.
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 5:38:57 PM EST
If you are concerned about getting thrown in the slammer for the wrong type of ammo during a shootout, why even risk it and carry at all?
Link Posted: 7/1/2008 6:48:27 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Headlice:
If you are concerned about getting thrown in the slammer for the wrong type of ammo during a shootout, why even risk it and carry at all?


Thanks to all for the feedback, it is what I was looking for.

To answer your question. I want to carry a concealed firearm for personal and family protection. But I want to cover all the bases in case I am ever in a shooting situation where I am prosecuted or sued in civil court. I can imagine that a lawyer showing a .44 or .500 magnum around in court as evidence would make more impact on a jury than a more reasonable self defense caliber that is also used by local law enforcement.
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 1:38:17 AM EST
They'd have a hard time spinning "Speer Gold Dots" against you.
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 4:23:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebloke1:
Why would reloaded ammo be an issue?
I cant work this one out.


Generally it is not good to use reloads because if you are involved in a shooting a good attorney can spin the story that you were reloading super hot, mega deadly loads designed to maim and kill beyond anything sold on the market. To those of us that shoot we know this is BS but to a jury of the uninformed it might work.

This was advice that my brother, a LEO, gave to me. It just provides an extra level of protection for you against some slick lawyer in a Self Defense Shooting Case. Reloads are great for practice, training or your SHTF stash but I would stick with factory loads for everyday Defense Carry.
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 5:33:46 AM EST
I would study your states case law to see if this has ever been an issue.

You really should not have to worry about it if you have a real reason to use your pistol for Self Defense.

That being said if you still have concerns, pack what the local LEO's do. Usually .40 jhp's
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 8:16:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Headlice:
If you are concerned about getting thrown in the slammer for the wrong type of ammo during a shootout, why even risk it and carry at all?


That is kind of a ridiculous statement. Even the "cleanest" shooting could land you in serious legal trouble. What if the guy who just tried to rob you and is bleeding out on the sidewalk happens to the be the prosecutors nephew or is hooked up politically somehow? What if it happens to be a black guy and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton decide to turn your case into a circus? The media can influence things in cases like this also. It's happened... There are a lot of circumstances that are far beyond our control and it's a good idea to prepare for the worst. There are plenty of cases like this where the shooter was a trained and respected LEO... imagine what they'd do to a regular Joe. Unfortunately, sometimes the real fight starts after the gunfight has ended.
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 8:51:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 8:59:16 AM EST
I hear range guys talking about this all the time. I follow along and carry off the shelf ammo, mostly gold dots or LE HST. But I would like someone to show me where a person was either convicted of found liable in a justified shooting just because of the ammo that was used. Anyone?
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 3:42:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dhaught:

Originally Posted By Headlice:
If you are concerned about getting thrown in the slammer for the wrong type of ammo during a shootout, why even risk it and carry at all?


Thanks to all for the feedback, it is what I was looking for.

To answer your question. I want to carry a concealed firearm for personal and family protection. But I want to cover all the bases in case I am ever in a shooting situation where I am prosecuted or sued in civil court. I can imagine that a lawyer showing a .44 or .500 magnum around in court as evidence would make more impact on a jury than a more reasonable self defense caliber that is also used by local law enforcement.



Don't use ammo that will overpenetrate though, you probably will be held liable for innocent people harmed.
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 4:25:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Armin_Tanzarian:

Originally Posted By Headlice:
If you are concerned about getting thrown in the slammer for the wrong type of ammo during a shootout, why even risk it and carry at all?


That is kind of a ridiculous statement. Even the "cleanest" shooting could land you in serious legal trouble. What if the guy who just tried to rob you and is bleeding out on the sidewalk happens to the be the prosecutors nephew or is hooked up politically somehow? What if it happens to be a black guy and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton decide to turn your case into a circus? The media can influence things in cases like this also. It's happened... There are a lot of circumstances that are far beyond our control and it's a good idea to prepare for the worst. There are plenty of cases like this where the shooter was a trained and respected LEO... imagine what they'd do to a regular Joe. Unfortunately, sometimes the real fight starts after the gunfight has ended.


"That train's never late!" - Chris Rock
Link Posted: 7/2/2008 6:09:58 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By mcooper:
height=8
Originally Posted By Dhaught:
height=8
Originally Posted By Headlice:
If you are concerned about getting thrown in the slammer for the wrong type of ammo during a shootout, why even risk it and carry at all?


Thanks to all for the feedback, it is what I was looking for.

To answer your question. I want to carry a concealed firearm for personal and family protection. But I want to cover all the bases in case I am ever in a shooting situation where I am prosecuted or sued in civil court. I can imagine that a lawyer showing a .44 or .500 magnum around in court as evidence would make more impact on a jury than a more reasonable self defense caliber that is also used by local law enforcement.



Don't use ammo that will overpenetrate though, you probably will be held liable for innocent people harmed.


Yes good point. I was at my local tactical supply store and spoke to a local sherrifs deputy and city cop and they answered some questions for me. I have decided on a Glock 27 with night sights as my first CCW. Picked it up at the local gun store today. The .40 S&W seemed to me like the thing to get. I will most likely be using the Hydrashock's since that is what local LE uses. I am also considering the Glazer Blue's as my home loads for the reason listed above of over penetration. I have neighbors in every direction from my home.

Thanks for all the input.
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 3:01:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:
I hear range guys talking about this all the time. I follow along and carry off the shelf ammo, mostly gold dots or LE HST. But I would like someone to show me where a person was either convicted of found liable in a justified shooting just because of the ammo that was used. Anyone?


Read about Harold Fish. While the caliber and ammunition used were not the sole reason for his conviction, multiple jurors stated that the prosecution made a huge impact on them by emphasizing his use of "ultra-deadly" hollowpoint rounds and by carrying a 10mm 1911, "a caliber so powerful, even law enforcement doesn't use it." The lack of refutation by the defense just made the points that much worse.
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 7:10:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:
I hear range guys talking about this all the time. I follow along and carry off the shelf ammo, mostly gold dots or LE HST. But I would like someone to show me where a person was either convicted of found liable in a justified shooting just because of the ammo that was used. Anyone?


Read about Harold Fish. While the caliber and ammunition used were not the sole reason for his conviction, multiple jurors stated that the prosecution made a huge impact on them by emphasizing his use of "ultra-deadly" hollowpoint rounds and by carrying a 10mm 1911, "a caliber so powerful, even law enforcement doesn't use it." The lack of refutation by the defense just made the points that much worse.


But I thought we were supposed to carry hollowpoints? What LE uses right? Sounds like I'm F'd because I carry a 10mm loaded with hollowpoints.
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 9:32:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/3/2008 9:33:10 AM EST by vanilla_gorilla]

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:
I hear range guys talking about this all the time. I follow along and carry off the shelf ammo, mostly gold dots or LE HST. But I would like someone to show me where a person was either convicted of found liable in a justified shooting just because of the ammo that was used. Anyone?


Read about Harold Fish. While the caliber and ammunition used were not the sole reason for his conviction, multiple jurors stated that the prosecution made a huge impact on them by emphasizing his use of "ultra-deadly" hollowpoint rounds and by carrying a 10mm 1911, "a caliber so powerful, even law enforcement doesn't use it." The lack of refutation by the defense just made the points that much worse.


But I thought we were supposed to carry hollowpoints? What LE uses right? Sounds like I'm F'd because I carry a 10mm loaded with hollowpoints.


You are when your entire jury is loaded with idiots and your defense attorney doesn't even bother to address the most damaging points of the prosecutions case. The defense could have proven that not only was the prosecution wrong, but that the prosecution was flat out lying to the jury. The defense failed to even bother.

I simply provided what was asked for.
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 10:00:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:
I hear range guys talking about this all the time. I follow along and carry off the shelf ammo, mostly gold dots or LE HST. But I would like someone to show me where a person was either convicted of found liable in a justified shooting just because of the ammo that was used. Anyone?


Read about Harold Fish. While the caliber and ammunition used were not the sole reason for his conviction, multiple jurors stated that the prosecution made a huge impact on them by emphasizing his use of "ultra-deadly" hollowpoint rounds and by carrying a 10mm 1911, "a caliber so powerful, even law enforcement doesn't use it." The lack of refutation by the defense just made the points that much worse.


But I thought we were supposed to carry hollowpoints? What LE uses right? Sounds like I'm F'd because I carry a 10mm loaded with hollowpoints.


You are when your entire jury is loaded with idiots and your defense attorney doesn't even bother to address the most damaging points of the prosecutions case. The defense could have proven that not only was the prosecution wrong, but that the prosecution was flat out lying to the jury. The defense failed to even bother.

I simply provided what was asked for.


That about covers it.

In five minutes the defense could have made the prosecutor look like the lying asshole he was, but he didn't.

The moral of the story is to hire competent counsel if you find yourself in court.
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 1:46:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By mtk:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:

Originally Posted By saabdrifter:
I hear range guys talking about this all the time. I follow along and carry off the shelf ammo, mostly gold dots or LE HST. But I would like someone to show me where a person was either convicted of found liable in a justified shooting just because of the ammo that was used. Anyone?


Read about Harold Fish. While the caliber and ammunition used were not the sole reason for his conviction, multiple jurors stated that the prosecution made a huge impact on them by emphasizing his use of "ultra-deadly" hollowpoint rounds and by carrying a 10mm 1911, "a caliber so powerful, even law enforcement doesn't use it." The lack of refutation by the defense just made the points that much worse.


But I thought we were supposed to carry hollowpoints? What LE uses right? Sounds like I'm F'd because I carry a 10mm loaded with hollowpoints.


You are when your entire jury is loaded with idiots and your defense attorney doesn't even bother to address the most damaging points of the prosecutions case. The defense could have proven that not only was the prosecution wrong, but that the prosecution was flat out lying to the jury. The defense failed to even bother.

I simply provided what was asked for.


That about covers it.

In five minutes the defense could have made the prosecutor look like the lying asshole he was, but he didn't.

The moral of the story is to hire competent counsel if you find yourself in court.



Agreed, poor defence. Nothing to do with ammo used. Thank you for pointing out this case.
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 4:10:22 PM EST
height=8
Don't use ammo that will overpenetrate though, you probably will be held liable for innocent people harmed.


Thats exactly the case for hollow points. If your shooting you don't want over penetration that a FMJ will give you thus the reason for using hollow points.

I took my CCW class about six weeks ago the instructor was a LEO he told the whole class that unless we live in NJ we should all have hollow points in our carry guns.

Jeff
Link Posted: 7/3/2008 4:46:23 PM EST
No what the Fish case turned on was the fact that Fish fired a couple "warning shots". It's really hard to convince a jury that you were in fear of your life when you fire rounds into the air on purpose.

That and he had a lousy lawyer.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 2:38:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Armin_Tanzarian:
Even the "cleanest" shooting could land you in serious legal trouble. What if the guy who just tried to rob you and is bleeding out on the sidewalk happens to the be the prosecutors nephew or is hooked up politically somehow? What if it happens to be a black guy and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton decide to turn your case into a circus? The media can influence things in cases like this also. It's happened... There are a lot of circumstances that are far beyond our control and it's a good idea to prepare for the worst. There are plenty of cases like this where the shooter was a trained and respected LEO... imagine what they'd do to a regular Joe. Unfortunately, sometimes the real fight starts after the gunfight has ended.


For the OP, pay attention to what A_T is saying here. You've got good advice about ammo, guns, etc. Also consider protecting your assets (want to try to sell a house with a lien against it?), and continue with reputable training.

It is alot to do with preparing yourself for the Criminal and Civil proceeding that can take years to resolve.
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 5:11:11 PM EST

I hope to God that if someday I encounter the worst case scenario that it is someone who has a bunch of priors for armed robbery and the whole thing is caught on CCTV to leave no room for interpretation.


One problem with this: Your defense lawyer CAN NOT use this in your favor! You, the CCW shooter, are stuck with having to defend yourself with only the information you had going in to the shoot.

OTOH, it MAY WELL have some bearing on whether the shooting actually goes to trial! That kind of information is the kind of stuff that a favorable news editor may wish to print.

Editor: "This citizen shot and killed a well-known and notorious felon, who has a bunch of priors for armed robbery. So WHY IN THE HELL is our prosecutor spending tens of thousands of dollars to prosecute this citizen?"

That is only good if you have a favorable press.
Link Posted: 7/11/2008 7:38:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:

I hope to God that if someday I encounter the worst case scenario that it is someone who has a bunch of priors for armed robbery and the whole thing is caught on CCTV to leave no room for interpretation.


One problem with this: Your defense lawyer CAN NOT use this in your favor! You, the CCW shooter, are stuck with having to defend yourself with only the information you had going in to the shoot.

OTOH, it MAY WELL have some bearing on whether the shooting actually goes to trial! That kind of information is the kind of stuff that a favorable news editor may wish to print.

Editor: "This citizen shot and killed a well-known and notorious felon, who has a bunch of priors for armed robbery. So WHY IN THE HELL is our prosecutor spending tens of thousands of dollars to prosecute this citizen?"

That is only good if you have a favorable press.


Thanks trt-sqrt11!


FrankSymptoms, Sure, priors most likely wouldn't be introduced at trial, but obviously the best case is that the prosecutor won't file any charges based on a the clear cut nature of a upstanding citizen who is attacked by a career criminal. Video evidence can definitely help too.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. This case is complicated and if it wasn't for a resonable prosecutor and the VIDEO evidence this CCW'er most likely would have faced trial.
www.wzzm13.com/red_player_1/default.aspx?aid=31010

He shot a guy for trying to assault him with a plastic garbage can lid. They had a history and were in a verbal agruement just prior to the shooting, apparently over the deceased man's girlfriend. Imagine how this would have played out without the video evidence...

I can't imagine the headline if this was a less gun friendly area: "man slain in arguement over girl, shooter claims self defense from plastic lid"

Also, it'll be interesting to see if the family tries to sue the shooter and how the castle doctrine will stand up in Michigan.
Link Posted: 7/16/2008 10:49:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Armin_Tanzarian:

Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
I'll second (or maybe third) the idea that if you're concerned with a court case then using the same ammo, caliber and even gun that your local LEO's use is a sound idea.

However, it's worth considering that a good shoot is still a good shoot no matter what gun/ammo you used, it's when it's not so clear that things like ammo, hand loads, bullet type and disingenuous prosecutors come into play.

To me, nothing is more important than living to get to that point, so I carry what I feel will be the most effective gun/caliber/ammo combination.


I agree with you there. However, things aren't always that cut and dry. "The Ayoob Files" (both the magazine column and the book) are full of examples of "good shoots" that left a lot of room for interpretation by LE and the prosecutor, not to mention the civil case that is likely to arise.


A lot will depend on your state. States with Castle Doctrine and "No requirement to retreat" laws can really help define a good shoot/bad shoot situation and make it impossible for you to be charged in a civil case. If you don't live in a state that has these laws you might want to start writing your state legislators, or start looking for a job in a state that does.
Link Posted: 7/16/2008 10:56:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By mcooper:

Don't use ammo that will overpenetrate though, you probably will be held liable for innocent people harmed.


You do realize that statistics show that roughly 80% of the shots fired in civilian shootings miss their intended target completely? Personally I'd be far more worried about my misses than I would about the possibilities of over penetration on my hits.

Also, it's my intention to take any shot available at an assailant, whether it's his chest, his knee, his head or an exposed hand or foot. Even a hollow point will penetrate though a hand or foot and most of the more powerful calibers will smash completely through a knee as well.

The moral of the story is to know what's behind your target and you won't need to worry about misses or over penetration.
Link Posted: 7/16/2008 12:16:09 PM EST
If I don't make it clear against the Grand Jury, I have more issues than just what ammunition I was using.

I carry Federal Hydroshok 2, largest size for the caliber (9mm - 147, .40 - 180). These have been thoroughly tested to show they have great stopping power. I prefer weight to speed to limit any in/out shots, endangering anything behind the target.

I carry my weapon to stop a potential threat. I will continue to attempt to neutralize the threat until there is no threat remaining. If in the process of defending myself and/or another, I end up taking the Bad Guy's life, I will have a serious heart-to-heart with God. It will be a life-changing event, but one I would make every time to prevent harm of myself or others.

Just my thoughts on it.
Link Posted: 7/16/2008 2:00:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2008 2:02:11 PM EST by mcooper]

Originally Posted By 3rdpig:

Originally Posted By mcooper:

Don't use ammo that will overpenetrate though, you probably will be held liable for innocent people harmed.


You do realize that statistics show that roughly 80% of the shots fired in civilian shootings miss their intended target completely? Personally I'd be far more worried about my misses than I would about the possibilities of over penetration on my hits.

Also, it's my intention to take any shot available at an assailant, whether it's his chest, his knee, his head or an exposed hand or foot. Even a hollow point will penetrate though a hand or foot and most of the more powerful calibers will smash completely through a knee as well.

The moral of the story is to know what's behind your target and you won't need to worry about misses or over penetration.


Because when you are surprised by some badguy and have fractions of a second to decide whether to shoot or not and your life is on the line, you will be worrying about "what is behind your target" [>://


I'll be thinking front sight press, and JHP's are to way to go, they penetrate less in badguys and in inanimate objects.

Now if I have more time than the above scenario, I'll definitely consider what is between and beyond the badguy. But if I have enough time to analyze the situation for a while, I probably have time to run and get my friends/family to safety.


ETA, I bet I practice more than 80 percent of the people who were in selfdefense shootings. 4 times a month 9 months a year. Unless for some reason I have to take a long shot, I plan on making hits.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 4:07:26 PM EST
Find out what you local pd or sherrif carrys and carry that and practice with it lots. Your only option in a gun fight is to win. If your justified in shooting dont worry.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:10:21 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Lancair:
They'd have a hard time spinning "Speer Gold Dots" against you.


And they were our choice after ballistic gel testing in 40 SW. This was after we had a miserable failure to stop with 9mm 147 HP. The ballistic gel would barely quiver when hit with this stuff. Unforturnately the testing was done after an officer was nearly killed.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:12:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 4:16:35 PM EST by SilentType]
Lethal force can be used in Self-Defense of yourself or in Defense-of-Others when there is fear of death or great bodily harm presented by the aggressor who is someone other than yourself. Self-Defense or Defense-of-Others are an affirmative defense to murder. You have the burden of proof to show that such a threat of death or great bodily harm was present.

The type of firearm or ammunition is not relevant to that defense. Any discussion of the type of bullet used or even the type of firearm is not relevant to that defense. The test is whether a reasonable person in your situation under the totality of the circumstances would have determined there was a fear of death or great bodily harm.

If the judge does allow the prosecution to introduce evidence as to the lethalty of the bullet or firearm over some other alternative to prove malice than I would explain that JHP while creating a larger wound channel than say FMJ has less of a chance at overpenetration and that you carried that type of round "JHP" to avoid having to ever risk harming someone you didn't intend to when you were attacked by shooting through the aggressor. JHP also helps avoid overpenetration of inanimate objects like doors or walls should you miss help to further mitigate the likelyhood that you will harm someone you didn't intend to harm.

The primary factor will always be whether you have the right to self-defense or defense-of-others under the totality of the circumstances you were found yourself in. One case where it will be questionable is when the aggressor is not armed with a lethal object (baseball bat, gun, knife, large stick, etc.) then it will be about whether you used more force than was warranted to hault the attack and whether you could make a safe-retreat (in some states). The other instance will be when there is a question about who was the aggressor (you're alone or his crack buddies said you attacked him).

That is why I recommend everyone who carries to have a less than lethal option on person at all times. If you are carrying a pistol you should be carrying pepper spray or mace as well. That way should an unarmed aggressor approach you you'll have a less than lethal option that provide stand off from the threat. I also always advocate making a safe retreat whenever possible.

Don't get wrapped into this "oh don't carry that ammo it's too evil or that gun is too scary" B.S. and concentrate on the rule "threat of great bodily harm or death." Above all don't second quess yourself. You're not ready to stand tall in front of the man for defending yourself and would rather be a victim than don't carry. That's the risk. If you doubt yourself and you fail at that critical moment your firearm will most likely end up in the hands of a criminal and used against someone.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but if you keep a cool head and remind yourself of the rule you'll prevail. Find a good criminal defense attorney you can trust (no easy task) by asking around. Ask your firearms instructor to recommend one or look for one with a good deal of real trial experience. Know your rights.

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:15:22 PM EST
Sounds logical except your local agencies may have chosen poorly. Our sheriff clings to a poor choice of 9mm ammo even in the face of two pathetic performances. Ammo made for law enforcement should suffice but I wouldn't limit myself to what the locals are using.


Originally Posted By Armin_Tanzarian:
Ayoob has written a lot about this topic and I've heard lots of different view points.

A couple of points that I found valid where:
1. Use ammo that local LE uses. Prosecutor: "Why were you using extra lethal hollow point bulltets?" You: "That's the same ammo our local sheriff's dept. uses to help keep our town safe.". LE's generally don't skimp on their ammo, RSXT, GD, HST, etc. I like Gold Dots because they don't have "LE Only" on the box.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 6:54:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By LtBlue425:
Sounds logical except your local agencies may have chosen poorly. Our sheriff clings to a poor choice of 9mm ammo even in the face of two pathetic performances. Ammo made for law enforcement should suffice but I wouldn't limit myself to what the locals are using.


Originally Posted By Armin_Tanzarian:
Ayoob has written a lot about this topic and I've heard lots of different view points.

A couple of points that I found valid where:
1. Use ammo that local LE uses. Prosecutor: "Why were you using extra lethal hollow point bulltets?" You: "That's the same ammo our local sheriff's dept. uses to help keep our town safe.". LE's generally don't skimp on their ammo, RSXT, GD, HST, etc. I like Gold Dots because they don't have "LE Only" on the box.


What do your state police use?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:29:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By mcooper:
Follow state laws, if you aren't in NJ you probably don't have anything to worry about.




I'm in NJ and starting on the process to get my CCW for NJ and NY. My instructor carries a 1911 with 230g FMJ, just to keep him from looking like he was set on killing. I'll be keeping the same set up. At home or at the principals estate, I can carry HP's.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 7:42:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 7:43:41 AM EST by SilentType]

Originally Posted By Wojo:

Originally Posted By mcooper:
Follow state laws, if you aren't in NJ you probably don't have anything to worry about.




I'm in NJ and starting on the process to get my CCW for NJ and NY. My instructor carries a 1911 with 230g FMJ, just to keep him from looking like he was set on killing. I'll be keeping the same set up. At home or at the principals estate, I can carry HP's.


Yeah, I think that JHP is restricted to LEO in those states though isn't it? I think the best you can do is get the EFMJ anyways.

Restricting to FMJ is truely non-ideal though for the various over-penetration issues we've all discussed. I don't see how JHP is this defacto evil bullet.

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