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Posted: 4/28/2009 6:59:26 AM EDT
I've always carried a glock and take pistol courses several times a year.  During malfunction clearing training we always chamber a round with the slide locked back and then insert a magazine to induce a double feed.  

From what I've read on 1911's chambering a round manually with the slide back is a no-go as it can damage the extractor.  Will letting the slide ride home on top of a seated magazine (thus causing a double feed) possibly damage the extractor as well?  If so, how do you train for double feeds?
Link Posted: 4/28/2009 7:31:52 AM EDT
Treat it the same way. your not letting the slide fly home with a round in the chamber, but letting the slide try and pick up a round in the magazine swith a round in the chamber.

Don't worry the 1911 can take it.
Link Posted: 4/28/2009 7:39:00 AM EDT
So what actually causes the potential damage with closing the slide on a chambered round?  I'm a little confused on how the extractor comes into contact with the round if the slide is not moving rearward.
Link Posted: 4/28/2009 8:19:46 AM EDT
in normal operation, the brass slides under the extractor.  When you let the slide slam home with a round in the chamber the extractor has to snap over the the brass.  This may cause some wear. imhop people over rate this as a potentional problem.
Link Posted: 4/28/2009 9:20:07 AM EDT
What the people above said.

Letting the slide close on a round in the chamber is not a big deal at all.

I have been doing it for years on my 1911 to prevent bullet set back, The only thing I have noticed it does it mess up the rim of the bullet eventually. No damage to my 1911's extractor.
Link Posted: 4/28/2009 11:00:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2009 11:05:16 AM EDT by SP10]
The first time I formally trained for this, I did malfunction clearance drills with Giles Stock in a www.FIREInstitute.org  3 day pistol class back on 2004. My Springfield loaded had been running 100% until after we did some failure to extract malfunction drills, similar to what the OP describes. It was the original factory extractor and had a decent # of rounds on it. This process of forcing the extractor over the rim is probably harder on a 1911 than a Glock.  I had a couple of FTF (maybe an actual FTE, can't really remember now) after the malfunction block. I pulled the extractor, retensioned it, and went back to running fine with it. I replaced the extractor with a Wilson Bullet proof part after the class and have had literally 0 malfunctions with the pistol sense.

I prefer to use my Glock 17 when I do malfunction clearance drills where I'm creating failures to extract.

BTW, I consider this type of malfunction in a pistol a failure to extract, not a true doublefeed (although MANY call it a doublefeed). A classic doublefeed in my mind is more of a carbine issue, with 2 rounds trying to occupy the same space in the chamber, forming a "V". Think V for doublefeed. Not a linear failure, with 2 rounds lined up with the one still occupying the magazine forced up agaisnt the (unextracted) chambered case.



Thanks to old-painless, who also calls this a doublefeed

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=52142&an=0&page=0#52142
some good pictures here with 1911s.

The FIRE class with Giles is HIGHLY recommended!

Link Posted: 4/28/2009 8:39:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/29/2009 8:28:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2009 8:28:53 AM EDT by brickeyee]
Originally Posted By cybrscream:
I've always carried a glock and take pistol courses several times a year.  During malfunction clearing training we always chamber a round with the slide locked back and then insert a magazine to induce a double feed.  

From what I've read on 1911's chambering a round manually with the slide back is a no-go as it can damage the extractor.  Will letting the slide ride home on top of a seated magazine (thus causing a double feed) possibly damage the extractor as well?  If so, how do you train for double feeds?


The possibility of damage comes from having the extractor have to 'jump' over the head of the cartridge to seat into the extractor groove.
It is not a problem if done occasionally, and with a correctly made (tempered spring steel) extractor.

It is not a problem at all in your drill set up since the second cartridge stop the slide and the second cartidge would slide under the extractor correctly anyway.
Link Posted: 4/29/2009 10:12:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/29/2009 10:13:53 AM EDT by SP10]
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
It is not a problem at all in your drill set up since the second cartridge stop the slide and the second cartidge would slide under the extractor correctly anyway.


I think you may be a little confused here.

There are 2 ways to fix this malfunction. The most common way is to pull back and lock open the slide, remove the magazine/top round, and then let the slide go forward under full spring tension. This is where the extractor rides OVER the rim of the chambered case. The magazine and the top round HAS to be removed before your can extract the offending case. Rack the slide 3X, insert magazine, rack again to chamber a round, and then reassess/fire. Unless you have a broken extractor hook which is unable to engage the rim, this will get you up and running.

The group of guys I train with occasionaly enjoy a little informal malfunction training. We set up a variety of malfs, place the pistol in our friend's holster, and then start a drill with a timer. We can time how long it takes to clear the unknown malf under a little simulated pressure. And for more fun, you should be able to clear these malfunctions in lowlight, not being able to SEE your pistol. Most bad guys move at night.

We do an awesome block of formal malfunction clearing drills for pistol/shotgun/rifle with www.mdtstraining.com, an industry partner with Arfcom. If you carry a gun or just employ one for self-defense in your home,  you are doing yourself and your loved ones a disservice by not getting some formal training.
Link Posted: 4/29/2009 10:54:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chase45:
What the people above said.

Letting the slide close on a round in the chamber is not a big deal at all.

I have been doing it for years on my 1911 to prevent bullet set back, The only thing I have noticed it does it mess up the rim of the bullet eventually. No damage to my 1911's extractor.


Uhh...
Link Posted: 4/29/2009 11:07:15 AM EDT
yeah, no kidding.
Link Posted: 5/1/2009 12:01:22 AM EDT
I'm trying to figure out how a double feed is even possible in a single stack firearm.
Train for realistic scenarios.
Link Posted: 5/1/2009 7:34:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
I'm trying to figure out how a double feed is even possible in a single stack firearm.
Train for realistic scenarios.


The term "double feed' doesn't refer to two rounds coming out of the magazing at the same time, if that's what you were suggesting.  What happens in a double feed is after firing, the extractor frees itself from the rim of the case as the slide moves to the rear, leaving the fired case in the chamber.  As the slide comes forward again, it picks up the next round off the magazine begins to chamber it.  This is where the double feed occurs.  It is in essence the pistol trying to chamber a fresh round when there is a fired case still in the chamber.  And yes, I can personally attest this is possible with a 1911, as it is with any other magazine fed weapon.
Link Posted: 5/1/2009 7:57:29 AM EDT
We ran this drill in one of the classes I took. It SUCKS when you do it with dummy rounds and the extractor of a 1911 rips through the plastic dummy round without extracting it.
Link Posted: 5/1/2009 8:30:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
I'm trying to figure out how a double feed is even possible in a single stack firearm.
Train for realistic scenarios.


"BTW, I consider this type of malfunction in a pistol a failure to extract, not a true doublefeed (although MANY call it a doublefeed). A classic doublefeed in my mind is more of a carbine issue, with 2 rounds trying to occupy the same space in the chamber, forming a "V". Think V for doublefeed. Not a linear failure, with 2 rounds lined up with the one still occupying the magazine forced up against the (unextracted) chambered case."

I'm guessing you missed this part of my earlier post. The malfunction discussed by the OP is NOT a true doublefeed. Guys who don't know any better call them that. A linear failure is absolutely possible in a semiauto. Check out my link a few posts above for some very good photos with descriptions of types of failures.




Link Posted: 5/1/2009 9:10:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SP10:
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
It is not a problem at all in your drill set up since the second cartridge stop the slide and the second cartidge would slide under the extractor correctly anyway.


I think you may be a little confused here.

There are 2 ways to fix this malfunction. The most common way is to pull back and lock open the slide, remove the magazine/top round, and then let the slide go forward under full spring tension. This is where the extractor rides OVER the rim of the chambered case. The magazine and the top round HAS to be removed before your can extract the offending case. Rack the slide 3X, insert magazine, rack again to chamber a round, and then reassess/fire. Unless you have a broken extractor hook which is unable to engage the rim, this will get you up and running.

The group of guys I train with occasionaly enjoy a little informal malfunction training. We set up a variety of malfs, place the pistol in our friend's holster, and then start a drill with a timer. We can time how long it takes to clear the unknown malf under a little simulated pressure. And for more fun, you should be able to clear these malfunctions in lowlight, not being able to SEE your pistol. Most bad guys move at night.

We do an awesome block of formal malfunction clearing drills for pistol/shotgun/rifle with www.mdtstraining.com, an industry partner with Arfcom. If you carry a gun or just employ one for self-defense in your home,  you are doing yourself and your loved ones a disservice by not getting some formal training.


The loose round will fall out when the mag is removed a large portion of the time.
Remember it is an unfired round, so it has plenty of chamber clearance.

Doing it once in a while for a drill is not going to harm a well made spring steel correctly tempered extractor.

Doing it over and over can eaily break a less than top of the line extractor.

Been to Gunsite more than once.

Link Posted: 5/1/2009 10:47:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
The loose round will fall out when the mag is removed a large portion of the time.
Remember it is an unfired round, so it has plenty of chamber clearance.

Doing it once in a while for a drill is not going to harm a well made spring steel correctly tempered extractor.

Doing it over and over can eaily break a less than top of the line extractor.

Been to Gunsite more than once.



So you are betting the chambered, unextracted  round will fall out when you remove the mag? It has likely been fired if it happens for real. Do you wait to see if it falls out before you take other measures? I'm not sure I'm tracking with what you are saying.

I haven't been to gunsite, but I have trained with Giles Stock. I highly doubt he'd recommend that as a course of action

Link Posted: 5/1/2009 1:29:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/1/2009 1:32:00 PM EDT by operator81]
Originally Posted By SP10:
Originally Posted By brickeyee:
The loose round will fall out when the mag is removed a large portion of the time.
Remember it is an unfired round, so it has plenty of chamber clearance.

Doing it once in a while for a drill is not going to harm a well made spring steel correctly tempered extractor.

Doing it over and over can eaily break a less than top of the line extractor.

Been to Gunsite more than once.



So you are betting the chambered, unextracted  round will fall out when you remove the mag? It has likely been fired if it happens for real. Do you wait to see if it falls out before you take other measures? I'm not sure I'm tracking with what you are saying.

I haven't been to gunsite, but I have trained with Giles Stock. I highly doubt he'd recommend that as a course of action




+1.  The one time I had it happen was using Aluminum cased Blazer in my 1911 (I know I know, but it wasa all I could find).  Once the pistol got hot and dirty, that little bugger got stuck in there and it took a few times of racking the slide to get it to extract.  Further inspection of the case showed part of the rim had been chipped off (not sure if it was like that before or after firing).  But it wasn't as simple as letting the case drop free.  Just food for thought.

Also, referring to the quoted section in red.  The only time you'll have an "unfired" round in a double feed is when you set it up yourself.  If you have a "TRUE" double feed, the case in the chamber will have been fired, which will more than likely require working the slide to extract it, as my above example shows.
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