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Posted: 3/24/2006 8:31:37 AM EDT
With near certainty this has been discussed, but as I have not seen the thread, I thought I'd pose my question.  My apologies in advance for posting this "horse that has been beaten to death."

I have a ccw and carry a 27 with a +1 extension in an IWB Desantis Gunhide leather holster at ~ 2 o'clock.  I understand that most folks say if you don't have one in the pipe, you basically have a club / brick as you won't have time to rack the slide when necessary.

My concern about carrying one in the pipe is due to the lack of a "safety" (like on a 1911).  I am afraid of a ND when pulling the gun even though the holster covers the entire trigger guard.  I like the 27, it shoots well, conceals well and is a great pistol.   Never had a failure to feed with any ammo.   I get to practice with it once every three months or so.

I ask that you guys help me understand if my concern is valid.  I fully admit I have a lot to learn so thanks for educating me.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:37:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2006 8:39:17 AM EDT by viper5194]
If your uncomfortable with carrying one in the chamber of your Glock, get a diffeent gun. The Glock is as safe as you are and as safe an any other gun out there. I used to have a USP that would by accident have the safety switched off. Was probably the holster but all guns have one thing in common. They do not fire unless YOU pull the trigger. If you are careless with your trigger finger than your gona shoot youself or someone else. If you have good trigger finger diciplin , then your gun WILL NOT fire untill you tell it to. I have a Glock 26 that I  carry  every day, round in the chamber and it has yet to shoot me.

Hmmm, come to think of it, I have a G30 as well that has yet to shoot me. Point is, the gun is safe, it is you who poses the problem/issue, not the gun. If you can keep your finger off the trigger, and make sure when reholstering it, that your trigger guard is clear, you will have no issues.

Viper out.........
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:37:52 AM EDT
Learn to be careful.  Holstering is the big problem.  Look to make sure nothing catches the trigger.  You will get used to it.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:41:03 AM EDT
Practice.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 8:57:53 AM EDT
One more thing, you should take a 3-5 day class with the gun, to get to know it and you'll learn more than you thought there was to know about pistol shooting. Secondly, carry it for a week with an empty chamber and a full mag (normally a bad idea) if it helps you develop donfidence. You will find, I am sure, on Day Seven the trigger will be forward and the striker at half cock--in other words, the trigger won't have been pulled.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 12:56:30 PM EDT
I am not giving you a hard time so I don't mean to come across that way. But I agree. If you are uncomfortable carrying one in the pipe in your 27 don't carry it. I carry my 27 off-duty and would not think about NOT having around chambered. That defeats the entire purpose of carrying the weapon. A short story: This incident just happened about two months ago. A fellow officer (a good friend) on my department responded to a car jacking. Upon arriving on scene, within seconds, the offender was surrounded by 4 officers. The offender ran over one of the officers, pinning him under the rear tire as he continued to accelerate. My friend, being fully justified in his actions, fired two rounds killing the offender. We later found out that he did not have a round chambered and had to rack a round. I am not sure if this was accidental or intentional. Luckily we, LEO's, train, train, train and that training kicked in. I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE IN THAT SAME SITUATION WITHOUT A ROUND CHAMBERED!!!!. Always have your weapon ready. Take your 27 to the range, and then take it again, and again before carrying it. You will do no one any good if you, in the moment of truth, are not properly trained or well practiced. A CCW is a large responsibility use it wisely.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 1:03:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 2:26:35 PM EDT
It boils down to a lack of familiarity, training and confidence. Time and practice is what you need. Practice drawing and reholstering with an EMPTY weapon. Take all ammo out of the room and practice drawing from the holster, coming up on ready and dry firing. Then reholster. Repeat.

As Combat_Jack suggested, take a training class. I think a 3-5 day course might be a bit advanced for you at this point so start with a one day class and then look for a 3 day class.


Link Posted: 3/24/2006 3:55:12 PM EDT
Glocks have 3 safeties.    

I carry a 27 as a BUG to my 22.   I use a rather flimsy vest carrier.  I'm not concerned about an AD.   Just keep your finger out of the trigger guard while holstering.   Do not have keys in your hand while your gun is in your hand.  I know of 1 AD from a key in the trigger guard while holstering.

Buy a good holster and practice putting it in and taking it out while it's unloaded.  If you are really nervous about it.  Set the gun on the table and watch it intently as long as humanly possibly.

IF the gun goes off by it's self I'll buy you a beer.

Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:10:07 PM EDT
Thanks for the response you folks provided.  I agree, more training would really help.  I got used to carrying the M9 on my web-belt and there was no concern then, but carrying the G27 inside my waistband as makes me a bit nervous.

I have been carrying w/o one in the pipe for a couple months to get used to the feel, and will now look into some training classes.  

BTW, Highdrag, I like dark Ale, but don't expect you'll be buying me one anytime soon
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 7:33:50 PM EDT
Keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot and never holster a Glock without looking in the holster first. What could be easier, it's a great gun.
Link Posted: 3/24/2006 9:17:41 PM EDT
Practice makes perfect.

People carried single and double action revolvers for a long long time before autos became common.  Make sure you are comfortable drawing the weapon from a cariety of positions and under stress and you will be fine.  A few minutes of practice drawing and dry firing every night for a few weeks can make a world of difference.
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:35:04 AM EDT
glock 27 carried everyday with one in the pipe holstered in milt sparks vmII


the only safety is the one carrying
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:12:33 AM EDT
Just don't touch the trigger.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:03:29 PM EDT
Keep your finger off the trigger, until you are ready to fire. Many Glock shooters index their trigger finger along the side of the slide. I have even seen shooters place their trigger finger over the top of the ejection port, until they are ready to shoot. I am not familiar with the holster you re using; but as long as it fits properly there should not be any problems with carrying the weapon loaded.
MB
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:58:09 PM EDT
CJ-what's wrong with carrying a loaded mag without one in the chamber?

Once you get more comfortable with the pistol you'll be less hesitant to carry it chambered.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:15:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 4:18:23 PM EDT by Xenogy]
I just started carrying a G26 and with one in the pipe since I started. I have beat it against numerous things while holstered and I haven't had an AD. I feel fully confident with it. I have also taken it out of the holster several times each day with no problems.
.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 4:16:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:56:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gimme_A_Carbine:
CJ-what's wrong with carrying a loaded mag without one in the chamber?

Once you get more comfortable with the pistol you'll be less hesitant to carry it chambered.



It's a bitch to load one handed. Who knows how a fight will start--maybe the attacker will have a deathgrip on my arm and I will have to draw and fire one handed.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:05:49 AM EDT
bad guys wont wait for you to chamber a round.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:07:42 AM EDT
There is a reason it's called "dead man's carry."
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:29:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/29/2006 9:41:27 AM EDT by darm441]
We went through this in another thread, and hopefully it won't get nearly as nasty here.  While there is nothing inherently wrong with carrying a Glock with one in the pipe, in reality it is a bit of a non-issue.  There are strengths and weaknesses to all modes of carry, the trick is to identify what strengths benefit you and what weaknesses can trouble you.  Historically most people have carried autos chamber empty without any trouble, and it is still the preferred method of carry in many places.  In the overall scheme of things it generally doesn't matter which you choose, chamber empty or loaded.  Figure out what fits your situation best, then practice with that mode in mind.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 12:52:31 PM EDT
Since some of the best practice you can do is at home with an UNLOADED gun try this... Drill in the garage or safe room with an UNLOADED gun with your carry rig... After a couple hundred presentations you'll get more comfortable with your gear...
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 7:09:49 PM EDT
agree with darm441 the one thing I will add is decide what is best for you trian that way and don't deviate- where people get into truble is when they start plating the game
will carry gun a in mode1
     carry gun b in mode 2 etc.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 2:47:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Learn to be careful.  Holstering is the big problem.  Look to make sure nothing catches the trigger.  You will get used to it.




Yep, holstering is it. Remember, complacency kills.

Re: Glock- fotey video
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:21:09 AM EDT
+1!  

My unit would spend hours on the firing line drawing and holstering our G19's without mags.  It helps build muscle memory and makes getting a sight picture second nature.  But we did this often.  Shooting is a frangible skill and will deteriorate over time when not practiced.  As a civie, I've noticed that when go long periods in between range visits, my skills are not as up to par.  Holster work is all about form.  Stand in front of a full length mirror and practice your form (just as you would when lifting weights or shadowboxing.
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 9:25:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2006 7:16:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/glocker199/BHD-044.jpg



Thats funny you posted that. I was thinking of that scene the whole time I read this thread.


Link Posted: 3/30/2006 1:17:09 PM EDT
I feel as long as you carry it in a holster and you are safe it should be alright.Years ago while uc I would just carry my glock27 in my waistband but didnt have one in the chamber.Got real proficient with the Israeli way of drawing etc.
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:54:51 PM EDT
You all should surrender your glock and turn in your man card to me immediately.having
Link Posted: 3/30/2006 10:58:03 PM EDT
We have to carry empty chamber at work. They are trying to switch us to Level III holsters, too. Why the fuck even give us guns if we can't bring them into action if we need to.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:21:43 AM EDT
If you need to bring your gun into action having the chamber empty will not be a problem.  It is quite easy to charge the weapon as part of the drawstroke.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:32:47 AM EDT
...still not as fast as draw and shoot.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:54:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
If you need to bring your gun into action having the chamber empty will not be a problem.  It is quite easy to charge the weapon as part of the drawstroke.



...assuming you have the luxury of the use of your other hand.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:57:33 AM EDT

...still not as fast as draw and shoot.

But quite fast enough!
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 10:58:32 AM EDT

...assuming you have the luxury of the use of your other hand.

Nice assumption, but one that looks at a problem that has not shown itself to be real over the years.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:08:24 AM EDT
Would you carry a revolver with the hammer resting on an empty cylinder? Just something to ponder.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:11:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:

...still not as fast as draw and shoot.

But quite fast enough!


Consider this.
You are 2 feet from the agressor and you need to draw and fire from the hip...yeah, fast enough my ass. And I don't want to hear they shouldnt be that close cus' in the real world you cant have a 5 foot perimeter at all times.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:24:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By darm441:
If you need to bring your gun into action having the chamber empty will not be a problem.  It is quite easy to charge the weapon as part of the drawstroke.



Did you see that recently posted video of the hotel clerk shooting the would-be armed robber?

You're telling me that he would have had time to draw, rack the slide and still get those rounds off before the felon?


I'll have to disagree.
Link Posted: 3/31/2006 11:46:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CTKurt:
Would you carry a revolver with the hammer resting on an empty cylinder? Just something to ponder.



If all I had was an old school revolver with a hammer mounted firing pin, then yes. Otherwise no.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:40:34 PM EDT
A few years ago I attented a LEO training course in New Mexico. One of the sessions was taught by an Israeli instructor. He explained that over there everyone carries their handguns with no round chambered. His arguement was that with so many (nearly every walking adult and some kids) carrying guns they worry more about an accidental shooting than an intentional one. So his course was to practice drawing the weapon, charging it and firing rounds on target in one smooth step.

We discussed the issue of losing fine motor skills under stress, cold weather, gloves etc, but he still felt this was the best way to do it.

I thought, well, I'm here to learn, I'll try something new. We did multiple dry fire drills indoors, until things were working smoothly.

Then we moved from the classroom to the range. This is in a place called Coyote Canyon (cause the wind is always howling I guess). It was January and the weather was cold for New Mexico, and Israel. What struck me was that the Israeli instructor COMPLETELY MISSED charging the weapon the first several times he attempted to demonstrate with live rounds. Now I know this was due to cold hands, but it also appeared to me to be an excellent demonstration of what could happen under stress conditions. Remember, this was an ex-MOSSAAD operative, Israeli military instructor and had practiced this evolution thousands of times.

Needless to say this really reinforced to me that the handgun was designed as a defensive  weapon, and to be carried with a round chambered.

Whatever you decide to do, you must practice, practice, practice, and not just under bluebird skies or in perfect weather conditions. The bad guys won't care.

I have carried Glocks on duty for years now. For several years I had a Glock BUG as well as a duty weapon. Never have experienced or seen a discharge that did not start witha finger on a trigger.

Stay safe, shoot straight, two to the body, one to the head, repeat as needed.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 3:49:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Radar-Rat:
Thanks for the response you folks provided.  I agree, more training would really help.  I got used to carrying the M9 on my web-belt and there was no concern then, but carrying the G27 inside my waistband as makes me a bit nervous.

I have been carrying w/o one in the pipe for a couple months to get used to the feel, and will now look into some training classes.  

BTW, Highdrag, I like dark Ale, but don't expect you'll be buying me one anytime soon



If you keep sticking your Glock inside your waistband, you WILL have a problem one day.
Get a high quality holster and practice, practice, practice.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 10:45:59 AM EDT
ARDunstan,

I carry in a Desantis horsehide IWB holster.  It is not as robust as the milt sparks holster other folks seem to be fond of.   I have been looking at the milt sparks et al. and think maybe a more rigid holster would be a good idea.  The one I have is okay, but is only rigid once the pistol is inserted.  This forces me to clip the holster to my pants with the pistol already inserted.  Fortunately, the trigger is covered.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:51:42 AM EDT
viper5194 said it best.

if you are scared of carrying a gun loaded with one in the chamber, BUY A NEW GUN. a glock is as safe as any gun out there. i get so tired of hearing that glocks arent safe... here it is nice and easy... IF YOU DONT WANT THE GUN TO FIRE, DONT PULL THE TRIGGER!!! and if your glock is holstered correctly in a holster that is MADE FOR THE MODEL YOU HAVE, then to trigger and the trigger housing will be covered by the holster and you wont be able to accidentally pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 6:31:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By meshmdz:
viper5194 said it best.

if you are scared of carrying a gun loaded with one in the chamber, BUY A NEW GUN. a glock is as safe as any gun out there. i get so tired of hearing that glocks arent safe... here it is nice and easy... IF YOU DONT WANT THE GUN TO FIRE, DONT PULL THE TRIGGER!!! and if your glock is holstered correctly in a holster that is MADE FOR THE MODEL YOU HAVE, then to trigger and the trigger housing will be covered by the holster and you wont be able to accidentally pull the trigger.



Link Posted: 4/2/2006 8:27:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:12:27 AM EDT

Would you carry a revolver with the hammer resting on an empty cylinder? Just something to ponder.

Revolver hammers don't rest on cylinders, but I get your point.  The dynamics of a revolver and an auto are quite different, therefore carry condition techniques might not be appropriate.  However, for some revolvers, yes, the standard method of carry was to keep the hammer down over an empty chamber.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:15:45 AM EDT

Consider this.

Consider that drawing and firing from the hip may not be the right response here.  Consider that selecting an extremely improbable and rare event for evidence does not support the idea at all.  Consider that this "problem" has not actually been a problem in reality based on years of history and actual use.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:17:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 9:24:05 AM EDT by darm441]

You're telling me that he would have had time to draw, rack the slide and still get those rounds off before the felon?

Yes, easily.  That is assuming that the clerk had normal physical abilities.  Racking the slide even for the untrained won't add more than 1/2 second to the overall draw stroke.  Plus all this talk about out-of-norm gunfights misses the issue, which is overall use and carry.  As I've pointed out elsewhere, focusing only on the one narrow (and perhaps most unllikely) part of the CCW concept keep sone from seeing the whole picture.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:19:51 AM EDT

A few years ago I attented a LEO training course in New Mexico. One of the sessions was taught by an Israeli instructor.

ASLET??
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 9:24:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CTKurt:

Originally Posted By darm441:

...still not as fast as draw and shoot.

But quite fast enough!


Consider this.
You are 2 feet from the agressor and you need to draw and fire from the hip...yeah, fast enough my ass. And I don't want to hear they shouldnt be that close cus' in the real world you cant have a 5 foot perimeter at all times.



Average distance for a handgun shoot out is 7 ft.  Average time of shootiut is 3 secs.  Average ammo expendature is 2-3 rounds.  ALL things being equal level 1 carry will always be faster then a level 2 carry.  If my life is on the line I want all the time I can get.  
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