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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/31/2005 8:38:51 PM EDT
Out of the East Germans, Poles, Russians, Czechs (CZ-52), and Bulgarians. (Makarovs&1 CZ-52)

Curious about buying one and I was curious about which one was the better design. The Bulgarians look nice and the finish is good but they bring a higher price, whereas the CZ-52s are everywhere for 160$ in good shape, and C&R eligible.

Ben
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:48:39 PM EDT
I owned a Chinese and Bulgarian Tokarev, and I hated the damn things, got rid of both, I still have a CZ52, best damn combloc pistol I have ever used....


that said, they still ain't a 1911
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:51:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
I owned a Chinese and Bulgarian Tokarev, and I hated the damn things, got rid of both, I still have a CZ52, best damn combloc pistol I have ever used....


that said, they still ain't a 1911



Isn't the CZ-52 up there with the FiveSeven on penetrating bullet proof vests? if I recall correctly the 7.62x25 round is like 2000 or so FPS.

Ben
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 8:54:41 PM EDT
Shot a CZ-52 today, and wasn't terribly impressed. I really don't like the mag catch. The rear, upper part of the grip (like where the grip safety on a 1911 is) just doesn't fit my hand. The forward part of the grips are too sharp and hurt my hand. I kept hitting waaay low with it - the sights were pretty poor. I don't like the lack of a slide release.

The recoil was much less than I expected for the ammunition, though.

It felt like a $160 pistol to me, let's just say.
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:12:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
I owned a Chinese and Bulgarian Tokarev, and I hated the damn things, got rid of both, I still have a CZ52, best damn combloc pistol I have ever used....


that said, they still ain't a 1911



Isn't the CZ-52 up there with the FiveSeven on penetrating bullet proof vests? if I recall correctly the 7.62x25 round is like 2000 or so FPS.

Ben



Our local crime lab did some testing several years ago with the 7.62X25 and common surplus ammo. They tested it against several Level IIA ballistic vests of various materials. The hottest load they could find was Yugo steel core at 1600 FPS. Good old fashioned 100% Kevlar stopped all loads consistently. The newer lighter materials like zylon stopped all of them but the Yugo.

Granted, the tests were somewhat informal and tested a common loads against common ballistic material
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 9:58:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
I owned a Chinese and Bulgarian Tokarev, and I hated the damn things, got rid of both, I still have a CZ52, best damn combloc pistol I have ever used....


that said, they still ain't a 1911



Isn't the CZ-52 up there with the FiveSeven on penetrating bullet proof vests? if I recall correctly the 7.62x25 round is like 2000 or so FPS.

Ben



Our local crime lab did some testing several years ago with the 7.62X25 and common surplus ammo. They tested it against several Level IIA ballistic vests of various materials. The hottest load they could find was Yugo steel core at 1600 FPS. Good old fashioned 100% Kevlar stopped all loads consistently. The newer lighter materials like zylon stopped all of them but the Yugo.

Granted, the tests were somewhat informal and tested a common loads against common ballistic material



Huh. I recall hearing someone say that the CZ-52 was a poor man's 5-7.

ben
Link Posted: 7/31/2005 10:37:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By fadedsun:

Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin:
I owned a Chinese and Bulgarian Tokarev, and I hated the damn things, got rid of both, I still have a CZ52, best damn combloc pistol I have ever used....


that said, they still ain't a 1911



Isn't the CZ-52 up there with the FiveSeven on penetrating bullet proof vests? if I recall correctly the 7.62x25 round is like 2000 or so FPS.

Ben



Our local crime lab did some testing several years ago with the 7.62X25 and common surplus ammo. They tested it against several Level IIA ballistic vests of various materials. The hottest load they could find was Yugo steel core at 1600 FPS. Good old fashioned 100% Kevlar stopped all loads consistently. The newer lighter materials like zylon stopped all of them but the Yugo.

Granted, the tests were somewhat informal and tested a common loads against common ballistic material



Huh. I recall hearing someone say that the CZ-52 was a poor man's 5-7.

ben



I don't make the news, I just report it. The fact is, our lab decided to do the tests because of the buzz about the 7.62X25 among the militia types. A local Cop was murdered by a constitutionalist/militia whacko with a CZ-52. The vest was not a factor due to point of impact. The good news is that the whacko was killed by other Cops on the scene. As far as a "poor man's 5.7" I guess it's another example of the old adage, "you get what you pay for".
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 12:23:58 AM EDT
Does the Radom count?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:21:07 AM EDT

Makarov, no question
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 5:51:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2005 5:52:21 AM EDT by Cross_Steel]
Not a C&R but my vote goes to the CZ75.

Even after 30 years the design is still as modern as tomorrow. So much of the other CommBloc stuff looks like WWII stuff.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 7:05:21 AM EDT
I have CZ52. I really doubt it's little 85 gr. round nose will penetrate body armor, but I'm sure at 1400-1600 fps it's a better penetrator than most rounds. The gun is well made, but like others said, the mag release sucks. Not having a slide release I can get used to. It's very accurate from what I hear, but I'm still new to pistol shooting and can't hit anything with it (but neither can I with my Glock 17). It's a flat shooting round and hitting targets even at 200 yards is possible without aiming high. Trigger pull is VERY nice. Pretty cool gun that shoots a pretty interesting round. That's why I bought it.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 7:21:09 AM EDT
I dont know much, but I would rank

CZ-75, Hell its still a good 9mm auto
Makarov
TT33, simple cheap, and fires a potent round, seems better then the cz52 IMHO
CZ52, seen several with cracked slides, and they seem to have soft roller balls not to mention most of the decockers dont work(WTF decocker on a SA pistol?)
Nagant. Would perfer a peacemaker, but hey, its better then nothing, and an interesting design.

Now would someone give me a PSM so I can try it out?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 7:37:50 PM EDT
I've never had or shot one, but I've never heard any one say anything bad about the CZ75's. What is the deal. Why are they not more popular? They're cheap, and supposedly very reliable and very accurate? I guess it's like AK's. Don't they have a factory here?
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 9:20:24 PM EDT
My CZ52 launches brass about 30 feet behind me and to the right and generates a wicked muzzle flash at night.

That makes it cool in my book.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 11:26:09 PM EDT
The Warsaw Pact thought of pistols more as badges of rank than combat tools so there designs are pretty weak.

Makarov would be the best for CCW and the CZ-52 is the best for getting attention at indoor ranges.

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 2:37:20 AM EDT
Stechkin
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:23:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:
Stechkin



That's an SBR to us, and a class 3 NFA. Sure is cool though.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 11:54:36 AM EDT
The Czechs replaced the CZ-52 with the CZ-82 in, well, 1982. I'd have to say that's probably the best Warsaw Pact handgun.

The CZ-82 is the military version of the CZ-83 in 9mm MAK. Polygonal rifling, excellent trigger, SA/DA, cocked and locked capable, ambi safety, 12 rd mag, VERY well made, and accurate.

Link Posted: 8/2/2005 1:57:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 1:59:10 PM EDT by DienBienPhu54]
I like the TT-33 Tokarev better than the CZ52...

the Tokarev TT-33 fits my hand better, feel more compact than the CZ52

my first choice would be a Makarov and my second choice is the Tokarev

the East Germans built the best quality Makarov
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 3:07:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DienBienPhu54:
I like the TT-33 Tokarev better than the CZ52...

the Tokarev TT-33 fits my hand better, feel more compact than the CZ52

my first choice would be a Makarov and my second choice is the Tokarev

the East Germans built the best quality Makarov



What's special about the East Germans? Milled receiver? Finish? Etc?

I honestly don't care about finish, if the pistol is well made and runs fine it's good with me.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 3:59:51 PM EDT
To answer the topic question, probably CZ-75. It's in 9mm Para, still being produced/refined, etc. Everything else (CZ-52, Mak, Tok, etc) is no longer produced for military/govt use because they're outdated designs. I like the Mak, but it's a little chunky for being a .380/9mm Mak as opposed to 9mm Para. I've heard the stuff about 7.62x25 Tok being capable of penetrating armor, but I doubt it could with standard loads. An idea I've had, however...what if someone were to make a 7.62x30 round and load it hotter and heavier than 7.62 Tok and chamber it in a 10mm-sized gun ? Would be big and heavy, but I'm sure that could penetrate armor better than 7.62 Tok (yet could be loaded with the same projectiles (or perhaps even 7.62 rifle projectiles in some cases) if one wanted) and probably outperform 5.7x28 for that matter.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 4:18:02 PM EDT
Gotta be the Mak. Who couldn't like such a tiny little gun, that eats such cheap ammo and which runs and shoots so well? I also think it's a class above the rest of them.

I don't even consider a CZ-75 a commie gun. It was never used by the Czech military, and it's a class above even the Mak. I think it's in the same category of great 9mms as the BHP, the P7 and the SIG 226*. And having lots of experience with both, I'm not so sure I'm getting much more by paying several hundred more for the SIG>........

* I do think the CZ-75 is a better pistol than the Glock.........
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 6:11:11 PM EDT
Is there a MAK out there in 9mm? (Not 9mm mak) How are the models in 380?

Ben
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 7:56:26 PM EDT
Agree with Tyrants on the CZ75 -- a neat piece but it really doesn't fit in the "Combloc Officer Pistol" category.

Amongst the usual suspects I'm a Mak addict. Have four of them. Out of 2500+ rounds total, I've never had a FTF except for clearly bad ammo (multiple hammer strikes wouldn't make it go) and no FTE. All hold under 5" at 25 yds, with one of my Poles capable of 3-4". And the four put together cost less than many modern 1911 clones.

CZ52 is a must-have as it's unique with the roller-lock mechanism and a generally strange but racy look. But it does have some flaws (sensitive firing pin, sometimes soft rollers, etc.). Grip angle is not natural. I have one just to humiliate know-it-alls at the range as it is difficult to shoot well if you don't spend some time w/ it. Got new hardened rollers and springs at Makarov.com. Cheap but essential improvements.

TT33 is built like a brick s***house. Yes, it's ugly, but it's extremely strong (can shoot the super high-pressure surplus rounds intended for PPSh that may damage the CZ). Another must have because it will never break (IMO). Love mine (Chicom) rattles and all.

In conclusion, the best weapons are the ones that whose designs have been bloodied many times over. A tragic part of the human condition, but we work our asses off to fight wars well, and the tested weapons that see use again and again are likely to serve best. TT's fit that requirement in spades, Maks a bit less so. CZ52 does not, having been used more often by Cold War terrs (like Red Brigade) trained in the old Eastern Bloc who were issed the piece in "camp".
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 8:46:22 PM EDT
Are Makarovs C&R elegible?
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:01:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rose:
Are Makarovs C&R elegible?



Some may be.

ben
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:04:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xm193cure:
Agree with Tyrants on the CZ75 -- a neat piece but it really doesn't fit in the "Combloc Officer Pistol" category.

Amongst the usual suspects I'm a Mak addict. Have four of them. Out of 2500+ rounds total, I've never had a FTF except for clearly bad ammo (multiple hammer strikes wouldn't make it go) and no FTE. All hold under 5" at 25 yds, with one of my Poles capable of 3-4". And the four put together cost less than many modern 1911 clones.

CZ52 is a must-have as it's unique with the roller-lock mechanism and a generally strange but racy look. But it does have some flaws (sensitive firing pin, sometimes soft rollers, etc.). Grip angle is not natural. I have one just to humiliate know-it-alls at the range as it is difficult to shoot well if you don't spend some time w/ it. Got new hardened rollers and springs at Makarov.com. Cheap but essential improvements.

TT33 is built like a brick s***house. Yes, it's ugly, but it's extremely strong (can shoot the super high-pressure surplus rounds intended for PPSh that may damage the CZ). Another must have because it will never break (IMO). Love mine (Chicom) rattles and all.

In conclusion, the best weapons are the ones that whose designs have been bloodied many times over. A tragic part of the human condition, but we work our asses off to fight wars well, and the tested weapons that see use again and again are likely to serve best. TT's fit that requirement in spades, Maks a bit less so. CZ52 does not, having been used more often by Cold War terrs (like Red Brigade) trained in the old Eastern Bloc who were issed the piece in "camp".



In your opinion, which one is the best made? IE solid? Solid steel frame (milled?), milled slide...etc. Just a really well put together peice. The Bulgarian Maks have the nicest finish Ive seen.

ben
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:24:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 7:25:54 PM EDT by xm193cure]
fadedsun:

There is a lot of variability, even within nationalities. It's surprising to see, as you would think the centralized planning and production would have led to some consistency within a given country of origin (e.g., all Polish guns made in one Gdansk factory, etc.). But they do differ.

By and large, I agree that the Bulgys you see today generally look the best, and I just bought one (not yet fired). Almost totally free of typical Commie tool marks. NIIIICE!

I had two Russians (sold one); the one I kept seems to have the least "play" of the four. It required comparitively little break-in though it appeared unfired when I bought it. Finish is a bit spotty.

My two poles Poles both have developed very smooth triggers. They have "typical" tool marks. As mentioned earlier, one is quite accurate (perhaps attributable to trigger).

Legend has it E. Germans are the best made of all. Some of this is probably based on the American perception of German quality. I'm yet to be convinced. I traveled to Berlin shortly after the East opened up, and , lemme tell you, if the wheezing two-cycle Trabant "automobiles" are representative of E.German manufacturing, I don't ever want one of their guns. Seriously, the Russian Lada and Czech Skoda cars of the '80s were WAY better better than their Stasi-driven counterparts.

But my knowledge of E.German Maks is just speculation. If you find a good-looking one at a good price, buy it.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 6:58:42 PM EDT
I had an EG. I also have a Bulgarian. My particular Bulgarian is just as nice as the EG I had.

That said, not all Bulgarians are up to this standard. It's luck of the draw.

I don't think they're really any better than a good Bulgarian, besides the fact that they are C&R eligible.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 8:13:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/6/2005 8:14:24 PM EDT by xm193cure]
King/fadedsun:

Just a curious point: I did my usual Saturday hang-around-the gun-shop-and-BS session today. The owner mentioned that he, too, thought very highly of the EG pieces. I told him the Trabant story. He said "their cars sucked 'cause they put all their money into gun factories." Whether he's right or not (and he's traded a number of Maks) the EGs definitely pull down a sweet $$ these days. I've heard $400 or more.

Faded, I'd say it's definitely caveat emptor, and buy what ya like. Maks all pretty much shoot great. If you trust the cartridge, it'll take small game, impress your buddies, ring some pepper poppers, and even save your life.

In any case a Bulgy is still a GREAT bargain today.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 8:20:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xm193cure:
King/fadedsun:

Just a curious point: I did my usual Saturday hang-around-the gun-shop-and-BS session today. The owner mentioned that he, too, thought very highly of the EG pieces. I told him the Trabant story. He said "their cars sucked 'cause they put all their money into gun factories." Whether he's right or not (and he's traded a number of Maks) the EGs definitely pull down a sweet $$ these days. I've heard $400 or more.

Faded, I'd say it's definitely caveat emptor, and buy what ya like. Maks all pretty much shoot great. If you trust the cartridge, it'll take small game, impress your buddies, ring some pepper poppers, and even save your life.

In any case a Bulgy is still a GREAT bargain today.



Well my girlfriend is dealing with an abusive father and she's scared really bad that he will come over and terrorize her, thus my interest in a MAK. Can't seem to find a good Bulgarian FTF in Texas, so I might be SOL there until I find a good deal.

Ben
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