Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 5/2/2008 6:13:28 AM EDT
I know for a fact that the Cincinnati Police Department uses Winchester Personal Protection ammo. Why is this? Is is better than the Gold Dot ammo that most departments use?
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 6:15:04 AM EDT
I'm going to say it's because of the $$$
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 7:57:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Seabee_Mech:
I'm going to say it's because of the $$$


I am thinking that too.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 8:18:47 AM EDT
Could be money or just a lack of finding LE grade ammo. I get calls from small and large agencies every day looking for duty ammo. There is no quantity of Ranger, Federal Tac or GD available in the US right now. There has not been any for a long time.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 8:54:54 AM EDT
Probably a combination of the above. Definitely not because of its superior (not) performance vs. GDHP or HST.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 9:00:53 AM EDT
Although a little hotter, the US Army uses 124 gr. FMJ 9mm rounds for their side arms. It will still kill a bad guy.

Ammo is expensive and some departments just don't have the money to buy top of the line ammo.

Link Posted: 5/2/2008 9:59:10 AM EDT
Because they can probably get large quantities from local sources and its inexpensive enough to practice with. WWB personal protection is a good round though as I've seen exapnsion tests that look as good as more expensive rounds.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 12:32:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because they can probably get large quantities from local sources and its inexpensive enough to practice with. WWB personal protection is a good round though as I've seen exapnsion tests that look as good as more expensive rounds.


Do you have a link to the expansion tests? Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 12:41:31 PM EDT
I have seen some back yard tests with wet paper or water jugs posted on various gun forums in the last few years. Nothing scientific so they really do not count.

The shooters had fun doing it so I guess that counts for something.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 3:20:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2008 3:20:49 PM EDT by Chris_1522]
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 4:31:40 PM EDT
The McCook PD in Cook County Illinois uses FMJ...
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 5:27:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:
The McCook PD in Cook County Illinois uses FMJ...



So does Detroit...because they're scared of "dum-dum" bullets.



Many PDs don't buy their ammo based on performance, they mainly do on price.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 5:57:15 PM EDT
They "fear the Talon".
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 6:17:09 PM EDT
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 9:38:26 PM EDT
The GWOT has taken a huge bite out of domestic ammo supply/production. We are using more ammo than we are able to manufacture/aquire. Because of the war, non-essential contracts/calibers aren't being made, and if they are, prices have gone up. Federal/ATK and Winchester have both "shafted" LE agencies on thier Ranger T, HST or Gold Dot orders. There have been several reports about this in the media...Agencies have been forced to find other alternatives that are more affordible/availible.

WWB is most certainly inferior to Speer Gold Dot.

That being said, many LE agencies continue to use older 2nd gen JHP's for thier issue guns. Federal 9PBE is still a very popular LE load, despite it being older than the Hydrashok. While its no Ranger T, it has proven to be reasonably effective in OIS incidents. Other agencies use this same Federal "Classic" JHP in other calibers/loads.

Agencies also use Remington JHP's. This is a conventional JHP that predates the Golden Sabre. Several CA agencies use the 180grn .40 JHP and others still use the +P+ 115grn 9mm JHP.

The federal government and other LE agencies use the .40 S&W 155grn Ranger JHP, not the Ranger T. This is just a plain-jane JHP, similar or identical to what you might find in the WWB line.

While these rounds aren't as technilogically advanced as the Ranger T/Gold dot, or even the Golden Sabre/Hydrashok, they have proven to be effective in real-life shootings and the subsequent court cases.

Just like the individual, every agency has a different perspective/understanding of terminal ballistics and adopts what it can afford or what it believes to be adequate. The NYPD was using 9mm FMJ's until the early 2000's. Other agencies reliquished thier FMJ's later, or still use them...

The Ranger T, DPX, HST and Gold Dot are all among the best JHP's availible today. They are however, cost prohibitive to some agencies. To some administrators, a 20+ year old design that has an adequate/good record of street-performance is better than a newer/more expensive design that is comparitively untested, even though many shootings have been logged with the Ranger T and Gold Dot.

WWB isn't all that bad eiether. Winchester loads thier older JHP designs or derivatives there off. The 147grn 9mm load uses the OSM*Olin Super Match* JHP which was used by many LE agencies and the DoD. Its an older design, but has been used with some success in OIS incidents. Other WWB JHP's use derivatives of the Silvertip or other successful Winchester bullets.

LE agencies bid on large lots of ammo. As has happened with other agencies, they paid for a lot of ammo that they never received, thus thier budget is expended and they have no ammo. They have to make due. WWB isn't the best LE JHP, but its hardly the worst eiether.
Link Posted: 5/2/2008 10:01:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.


They must practice alot and are very good shots to boot. They must also train to make sure nothing is behind the target as well.Not knocking the 9mm FMJ...it just shows that shot placement is key.
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 12:29:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2008 6:53:57 PM EDT by hotpig]

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:

Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.


They must practice alot and are very good shots to boot. They must also train to make sure nothing is behind the target as well.Not knocking the 9mm FMJ...it just shows that shot placement is key.


I have first hand knowledge of two shoots. The first guy tried to run over a officer and was shot in the right upper arm fracturing his humerus. He stopped and surrendered because"it hurt really bad".

The second was charging a officer and was hit in the abdomen with one shot. The bullet caused lots of internal damage and the bg expired in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

In both of these cases there was no over penetration.
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 12:12:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2008 7:14:48 PM EDT by Rampant_Colt]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:
The McCook PD in Cook County Illinois uses FMJ...



So does Detroit...because they're scared of "dum-dum" bullets.



Many PDs don't buy their ammo based on performance, they mainly do on price.

That's understandable here, because McCook PD is a very small town
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 12:53:28 PM EDT
I classify hitting a kidney, spleen, and abdominal aorta as causing lots of internal damage.
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 5:43:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:
I classify hitting a kidney, spleen, and abdominal aorta as causing lots of internal damage.


That could be a lucky shot - you could just about line those up. Just because it hit all those doesn't mean the bullet bounced around inside him, unless it hit bone or something hard.
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 6:57:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancair:

Originally Posted By hotpig:
I classify hitting a kidney, spleen, and abdominal aorta as causing lots of internal damage.


That could be a lucky shot - you could just about line those up. Just because it hit all those doesn't mean the bullet bounced around inside him, unless it hit bone or something hard.


I edited my original post to make people happy by removing bounced around. I'm pretty sure the dead guy considered this a lot of damage.
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 8:08:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:
I'm pretty sure the dead guy considered this a lot of damage.

I shouldn't laugh, but that was kinda funny...
Link Posted: 5/3/2008 9:25:52 PM EDT
There are a million reasons to carry quality defensive ammo.

There are not many to carry FMJ or ammo that has been proven inferior.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 7:26:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.




They must be aim-botting. Hax.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 8:00:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rush4theYehO:
Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.


They must be aim-botting. Hax.

Huh?

100% one-shot stops in TWO shootings
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 9:02:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
Although a little hotter, the US Army uses 124 gr. FMJ 9mm rounds for their side arms. It will still kill a bad guy.

Ammo is expensive and some departments just don't have the money to buy top of the line ammo.

Yeah, it will, but there is absolutely no comparison in the effects of 9mm FMJ and good JHP rounds like Gold dot, TAP, and Ranger.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 9:04:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.
I don't buy that for a second. You're being lied to. I was an EMT for far to long and saw to many people get shot with both FMJ and JHPs to ever believe that.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 10:22:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2008 10:44:01 AM EDT by hotpig]

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.
I don't buy that for a second. You're being lied to. I was an EMT for far to long and saw to many people get shot with both FMJ and JHPs to ever believe that.


You must have very little experience to beleive that fmj will not make a person stop hostilities.

I have first hand knowledge as in MY HANDS WERE BLOODIED on the two incidents that I cited.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 10:27:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:

Originally Posted By Rush4theYehO:
Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.


They must be aim-botting. Hax.

Huh?

100% one-shot stops in TWO shootings


That was the oly two that I was there to see. They switched to H&K 40 cal with RA40T since then. No shootings with the 40 yet.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 11:41:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.
I don't buy that for a second. You're being lied to. I was an EMT for far to long and saw to many people get shot with both FMJ and JHPs to ever believe that.


You must have very little experience to beleive that fmj will not make a person stop hostilities.

I have first hand knowledge as in MY HANDS WERE BLOODIED on the two incidents that I cited.
I have a LOT of experience, way to much to ever believe the story that FMJ 9mm kept up a 100% one shot stop rate for over 20 years.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 12:02:12 PM EDT
Shows you do not know everything that you think you know. Welcome to the real world. It never ceases to amaze me.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 12:17:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:
Shows you do not know everything that you think you know. Welcome to the real world. It never ceases to amaze me.
I know that the insinuation that 9mm fmj is a one shot stop everytime is BS that won't pass even on Arfcom. Someone may believe the lie and use FMJ thinking it's an effective manstopper and carry it, I pray if they do they don't get involved in a defensive shooting.

The simple truth that EVERYONE knows is that no handgun round is really that effective of a manstopper. The mortality rate for victims of handgun shootings is only 10%.

People can, and have absorbed multiple hits from GOOD .45 ammo to COM, People have absorbed multiple hits from GOOD .40 ammo to COM, people have absorbed multiple hits from GOOD 9mm ammo to COM. Hell, people have aborbed multiple hits from 5.56 to COM and been able to keep fighting.

Yet you're going to try to convince people that absolute SHIT ammo has a 20 year history of a first shot stop?

Arfcom may have some clowns, but most of the people here are NOT stupid, certainly not stupid enough to believe that.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 12:30:21 PM EDT
I sale LE ammo so I have a good idea of what works and what does not.

I said this department had 100% and that is the truth. I never said that is what to expect from fmj of any caliber.

This Department did not change caliber or ammo until recently. Even the Chief acknowledges that one day their luck will run out. They now have RA40T as their duty ammo via H&K launching pad.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 12:44:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hotpig:
I sale LE ammo so I have a good idea of what works and what does not.

I said this department had 100% and that is the truth. I never said that is what to expect from fmj of any caliber.

This Department did not change caliber or ammo until recently. Even the Chief acknowledges that one day their luck will run out. They now have RA40T as their duty ammo via H&K launching pad.
And I was an EMT for 6 years and worked a metric shit ton of shootings. SELLing ammo does NOT mean you know what works and what doesn't. It means you know what people buy and what they don't buy.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 12:49:28 PM EDT
Firefighter/Medic since 1985. I work part time in a ER. I will be working there the next two nights then back to the FD for my regular 48.
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 1:05:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2008 7:16:43 AM EDT by Zhukov]
<Cut it out with the bickering please. This is not GD. - Z>
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 1:09:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2008 7:16:49 AM EDT by Zhukov]
<Cut it out with the bickering please. This is not GD. - Z>
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 1:15:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2008 7:16:54 AM EDT by Zhukov]
<Cut it out with the bickering please. This is not GD. - Z>
Link Posted: 5/5/2008 8:15:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:

Originally Posted By Rush4theYehO:
Originally Posted By hotpig:
A PD near me used 9mm fmj until 2002. They had 100% one shot stops in the 20+ years of using the 9mm.


They must be aim-botting. Hax.

Huh?

100% one-shot stops in TWO shootings


Sry, nerd speak. aimbot = cheats that autimatically aim for the head.
Link Posted: 5/6/2008 7:17:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2008 12:10:03 PM EDT
Any round, included 22 rimfire, can stop or kill a person with a single shot, it just depends on the person and the shot placement. The reason we're all not carrying .22 is because not all people stop as easily as others and that one in a million, perfect shot doesn't happen every time.

But if you want the answer to the original question, why would a PD use cheap ammo, as my Dad used to say "Follow the money". I'll also add political correctness, which is the cause of at least half the stupidity government does these days, could also play a role in some departments using FMJ.
Link Posted: 5/6/2008 12:49:23 PM EDT
Probably also, ironically, combined with the "Glock till they drop" approach to police shootings.
Link Posted: 5/7/2008 7:51:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elderboy02:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because they can probably get large quantities from local sources and its inexpensive enough to practice with. WWB personal protection is a good round though as I've seen exapnsion tests that look as good as more expensive rounds.


Do you have a link to the expansion tests? Thanks.


ammo.ar15.com/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf
Link Posted: 5/8/2008 2:57:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nate7out:

Originally Posted By elderboy02:

Originally Posted By Nakanokalronin:
Because they can probably get large quantities from local sources and its inexpensive enough to practice with. WWB personal protection is a good round though as I've seen exapnsion tests that look as good as more expensive rounds.


Do you have a link to the expansion tests? Thanks.


ammo.ar15.com/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf


Thanks!
Link Posted: 5/9/2008 6:49:04 AM EDT
Ryno wrote:
"LE agencies bid on large lots of ammo. As has happened with other agencies, they paid for a lot of ammo that they never received, thus thier budget is expended and they have no ammo. They have to make due. WWB isn't the best LE JHP, but its hardly the worst eiether."

Ryno, Can you explain and source this statement? Are you saying LE agencies have PAID for ammo that they never receive?


FWIW- I personally know of a small (still, tens of thousands of rounds) U.S. Government procurement of "Federal Hy-Shok" ammunition that was purchased because the person who wrote the purchase order thought they were buying "Federal Hydra-Shock". The Government "accepted" and paid for the order before the confusion was realized. My understanding is that it was issued for its intended purpose but then later a brief was issued that relegated it to "Training Purposes Only".


Link Posted: 5/9/2008 9:48:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Makarov:


FWIW- I personally know of a small (still, tens of thousands of rounds) U.S. Government procurement of "Federal Hy-Shok" ammunition that was purchased because the person who wrote the purchase order thought they were buying "Federal Hydra-Shock". The Government "accepted" and paid for the order before the confusion was realized. My understanding is that it was issued for its intended purpose but then later a brief was issued that relegated it to "Training Purposes Only".




I consider that to be a huge waste of resources. Perhaps I'm wrong, but---from a practical, real-world, standpoint----I don't think there's THAT much difference between the regular "hi-shok" hollowpoint ammo and the fancy "hydra-shok" ammo of the same weight, muzzle velocity and caliber. One has a lead post in the hollowpoint cavity whereas the other does not. Big deal.
Link Posted: 7/12/2008 8:49:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By elderboy02:
I know for a fact that the Cincinnati Police Department uses Winchester Personal Protection ammo. Why is this? Is is better than the Gold Dot ammo that most departments use?


Politics, that's why they haven't switched to a larger caliber either, former M.O.S. of NYPD here, regular street cops carried 115 GR. WWB FMJ and Transit/Housing carried Federal 147 gr. subsonic because of concerns of over-penetration. This was all changed after the Amadou Diallo shooting in 1999 because the guys involved were getting hit with their own ricochets from the steel door and frame Diallo was standing in. (hence the 41 shots that a#$hole Bruce Springsteen sings about). They now use Speer gold dot 124 gr +P HP across the board.
Heck if the PD Commissioner had any cojones they would all be carrying 230 gr. .45 ACP Hp, big,slow gets job done especially in an urban environment.
Link Posted: 7/12/2008 10:03:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2008 10:04:27 PM EDT by 918v]
The reason they use it is due to the same reason alot of other departments used it: cheap and it works well. San Diego PD used it throughout the '90s. My department issued it for a long time. Dr. Eugene Wolberg proved the merits of ballistic jello using that very same ammo: 50+ shootings where this stuff penetrated 13" and expanded to .60" every time.

It's not a black talon, nor a gold dot, but it is match-accurate, low flash, reliable ammo that will poke a .60 caliber foot-long hole in your assailant every single time.
Link Posted: 7/13/2008 8:44:25 AM EDT
In an article in the Journal of the International Wound Ballistics Association (Winter, 1991), Eugene J. Wolberg, the San Diego Police Crime Laboratory's Senior Firearms Criminalogist, presented the data collected from 28 human autopsies that involved shootings using the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. JHP and presented evidence supporting a strong correlation with results obtained by testing this ammunition in calibrated ordinance (Knox) gelatin.

I have provided the link below:

Winchester 147 gr. JHP Autopsy Data, (IWBA,1991)

The averages for expansion, retained weight and penetration depths were neither calculated nor provided for the entire sample (n=28) in the article. I have determined them and provided them below:

Average Expansion: .5406" (1.5251x caliber)
Average Retained Weight: 139.11 gr. (~94.631%)
Average Depth of Penetration: 13.18"


Given the "average" performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 gr. JHP in that it appears to expand regularly to 1.5x caliber and retain ~95% of its weight while penetrating 13+ inches in actual shootings (not calibrated gelatin), I'd have to say that it is excellent SD ammunition considering it's "Economy Value" status. I would add that it matches closely, another premium SD round that I hold in very high regard, the Hornady 147 gr. XTP "CQ" JHP, (it is my "carry ammunition" in my Glock 17) which also expands to ~1.5x caliber, penetrates 14+ inches and retains ~95-99% of its weight.

Sufficiently impressed, I have now laid in a "healthy" supply of this round as secondary CCW/SD "go-to" ammunition in light of its similar performance to the Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP.
Link Posted: 7/14/2008 8:11:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By THUNDERKISS:

Average Expansion: .5406" (1.5251x caliber)
Average Retained Weight: 139.11 gr. (~94.631%)
Average Depth of Penetration: 13.18"



That's respectable performance to have in a lesser expensive backup stash. And you're reasonably convinced that this is the same ammo that is now being sold as WWB Personal Defense?
Link Posted: 7/16/2008 8:02:48 AM EDT
That's what the box said when they issued it.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Top Top