I just got a Kimber Custom II for CCW and needed to get familiar with it.

Took about 250 rounds to the range.
I did this with my Springer too:
walk around the "stall" while looking like a wacko, just to take my eyes off the target and mix my stance up. This way I am NOT in any sort of firing mindset.

90% of the time I am wearing a T shirt or non tucked in dress shirt.

Anyways I am on the line, lifting shirt, drawing, saftey , point, NOT shooting.
(sidearms was unloaded). I do this to see where I may have impacted the target.
Once I got a good feel for the Kimber I load it up and rack it.
Repeat the above steps, only I double tap the COM and single to the head.
so BANG, BANG,....Bang. All of 2 seconds at most.
I had 2 100 yard shoot N C ( 1 com, 1 head) on a very used silhouette.
I squeezed off about 15 rounds, stopped and was making more "DRY" runs.

Guy comes over and ask if I was practicing for competition.
ME: no, just self defense
Him: Are you a LEO?
ME: No, just a truck driver
Him: are you ex .MIL?
Me: No, what are you getting at, BTW?
Him: Well... where are your rounds landing?
Me: in the COM and somewhere in the head region, but the old target has alot of holes in it so I am not too sure.
Him: Well if you line up this middle .....
Me: ok, thanx, but I know how to use my sites... I am not target shooting.
(oh, I have the stand at 10 yards instead of 7) I am practicing fast draw and shoot. I don't intend on using the sites at this close of a range. I am making sure I draw and point the muzzle in the right area. IF I can palm the grip exactly how I need to EVERYTIME I don't need to aim on a fast approaching BG. So the sites are kind no biggie in this to me.

HIM: well I am an LEO in XXX city, and you should aim before you pull the trigger. You need to blah blah blah...
Me: (thinking) and you guys expell how many rounds and and what %'s are hit to the COM?

No offense to LEOs but we know a majority of them do not get the trigger time they need. Now if he was a Marine or other .mil that did CQB in the Sand box, or a SpecOp, I would have listened to everything he had to offer..


Now you kinda know what the situation is, and what is the right way in a fast draw / shoot situation?
Draw, aim, shoot.
or spend alot of time "feeling" how the sidearm sets in your hand and making sure that when the trigger is squeezed it goes without questioning where your "pointing"?

Point aiming is very effective in certain situations. I would practice it too.

Unless you take a reputable course that teaches the fundamentals of point shooting, I would say: "Draw, Aim, Shoot" in all cases except when the assailant is in the "can't miss" range, and taking the extra time to align the sights would put you in jeopardy.

Yes, it is good to pratice point-blank point shooting as well as aimed fire. I wouldn't practice one to the exclusion of the other.

Quoted: Unless you take a reputable course that teaches the fundamentals of point shooting, I would say: "Draw, Aim, Shoot" in all cases except when the assailant is in the "can't miss" range, and taking the extra time to align the sights would put you in jeopardy. Yes, it is good to pratice point-blank point shooting as well as aimed fire. I wouldn't practice one to the exclusion of the other.

+1 Good advice.

Curious as to the distance of your targets on the range.  Typically, point shooting or shooting from retention is done at contact distance only to a maximum of 15 feet.  Get some training from a reputable instructor and make sure you do aimed fire as well as shooting from retention.

When I go to the range, I generally practice both point shooting (in much the same manner as the OP described) and aimed shooting. Catch all sorts of odd looks from the LEOs and Security Guards that shoot there too.

I feel point shooting is good to practice for several reasons.

My personal reasons are

A) my vision isn't the greatest in the first place
B) my vision will be even worse in a intense situation where I would have to draw down
C) any extra practice is good

A pretty basic rule of thumb is "If you can use your sights, you should use your sights."  Aimed fire is always preferred if the situation allows it.  However, many situations, particularly stressful situations, preclude the ability to use the sights, so point shooting is a good skill to develop.

Quoted: Quoted: Unless you take a reputable course that teaches the fundamentals of point shooting, I would say: "Draw, Aim, Shoot" in all cases except when the assailant is in the "can't miss" range, and taking the extra time to align the sights would put you in jeopardy. Yes, it is good to pratice point-blank point shooting as well as aimed fire. I wouldn't practice one to the exclusion of the other. +1 Good advice. Curious as to the distance of your targets on the range.  Typically, point shooting or shooting from retention is done at contact distance only to a maximum of 15 feet.  Get some training from a reputable instructor and make sure you do aimed fire as well as shooting from retention.

+1

I like the point shooting philosophy and it is something taught to us.

Front sight, press.
 After a number of classes, that's ingrained in my mind.
 With enough practice, mounting the weapon to your line of sight, isn't any slower than draw and shoot, and with it comes a flash sight picture and a guaranty of improved accuracy.
Just my .02

Quoted: Quoted: Unless you take a reputable course that teaches the fundamentals of point shooting, I would say: "Draw, Aim, Shoot" in all cases except when the assailant is in the "can't miss" range, and taking the extra time to align the sights would put you in jeopardy. Yes, it is good to pratice point-blank point shooting as well as aimed fire. I wouldn't practice one to the exclusion of the other. +1 Good advice. Curious as to the distance of your targets on the range.  Typically, point shooting or shooting from retention is done at contact distance only to a maximum of 15 feet.  Get some training from a reputable instructor and make sure you do aimed fire as well as shooting from retention.

+1

most times, it would be best to have sights on target....h/w, there are those times where point shooting/contact shots are needed

I guess I should sum it up...

I had the target about 10 yards
I shot 10 full mags and had 10 loose rounds, so I always started with 8 rounds.

I had 2 head misses
I had one shoulder graze

Did not even look at the sites.

NOW, if I had time to do a precision shot I use my sites and will pop a melon all day long.
this was lifting T-shirt, drawing, pointing, double tap to the COM, and then one to the head.

all rounds pointed to the com hit the com.

The other thing to consider is that shooting from retention or shooting from any position other than 2 hand supported may more likely cause a weapon malfunction such as a FTE or "limp wristed" shot.  You may also get your clothing caught up in the action of the pistol as it is cycling depending on your shooting position.

10 yards or 30 feet is an acceptable distance to practice point shooting at, IMO.  Assuming the target can charge you from 30 feet and be on top of you within a matter of split seconds, I'd say it is a valid practice tool.  It develops your skill at closer ranges where it may be actually needed.  Anything further than that is not effective practice, IMO.

Good Luck!  I believe there are some quality instructors in your area to study with this summer.  See  ARFCOM training forums.

You need to train using the sites at 10 yards. Your target shoud not be "somewhere in COM" it should be a fist sized group in the triangle between the nipples and the adams apple. Your head target should be between the bottom of the nose, top of the eyebrows and the outside of the eyelids.

If you are hitting outside of these areas you are not hitting the target.
With a real self defense situation your skill level will be about 1/3 of what it is at the range. If you accept sloppy hits while training you will get sloppy misses on the street.


If you want to practice point shooting, set up a target at 3 yards and make sure you can hit the above areas. Move out to 7 yards and practice using a flash sight picture making sure you hit the same areas.

The only reason to use point shooting is for  weapons retention. If you can't shoot as fast with sighted fire as you can without, you need to practice sighted fire some more.

Gringop

I have been shooting for about 22 years. I have only carried for 3 years since I moved from New Germany down to NC. I have drawn my weapon twice in the last six month. Wrong place at the wrong time. Both times involved split second decisions whether to shoot or not, and I did not. But I was taking up trigger.

Situation #1 - two guys come out of nowhere as I head to my car at the gas stattion and want to know if I have any money. They don't take no for an answer and they keep closing on me. My hand went inside my coat. When one of theirs went in his pocket he got a "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS"  and a barrel. They ran away. I was very happy. I do not want to be a toy in the DA's hands.

Situation #2 - pulled into a parking spot against the building in a strip mall at night with only 2 other cars. Note the usage of "pulled in". I will never do that again. A car came behind me immediatrly [I found that this was done 4 times that week in a 4 block area with gunmen and one carjacking] and pinned me into the spot. I threw the dome light on, lifted the gun out of the wedge my seat holds it in and turned to the rear as an agent that teaches tactical shooting said in any carjacking, shoot first and shoot out you window. Unless they know you are a jewler or something with a tremendous score, they won't hang around. The car pulled back out and left. I can't accurately say if it was 5 seconds or 20 seconds.

I have NOT practiced what could be considered a lot drawing and real shooting as it's not safe at the range with six stalls. I do practice with the gun starting in the middle of a draw, by my waist, and I push it out and I fire. I don't want someone next to me drawing, that's for sure. I have practiced with an airgun that's virtually identical to my HK about 2000 times in the last year as that's the number of bb's that were in the bottle. I even have an alarm clock program on my PC and sometimes I'll sit here and have it go off and I have to draw and fire at a target to my left or right that's 10-12 feet away. I set it anywhere from 5 to 8 minutes as you'll lose track of time and the sound file I have it set to use is gun fire. It's a bit of a jolt as I have it set quite loud and I know I have to act immediately.

My question regarding the real-life situations is this: Anyone else ever experience time not existing? I had an eternity to fix my eye on the front sight as I appeared to watch it in slow motion. I'm just wondering if that is why they say to use the sights because you  WILL  use them and you will shoot more accurately. Having read the book "Blink" it seems to be a phenomenem when you subconcious tells you that everything is dangerous and you might be spending your last moment alive, time all but stops.

This also happened one other time as a car pulled out from a side street and then hit the brakes and sat there and I was doing 50 mph and I counted 9 thoughts for evasive action in what couldn't have been more than a second-and-a-half. The first two were: 1 - bury the brake, then 2 - it's not going to matter. Then I literally made considerations of turning left or right and thought of other cars and their location, ultimately throwing the wheel to the left into oncoming traffic and making it back in before a head on collision. I got home and my wife said "are you alright?" and I said I needed a drink! Then I sat and pondered how all of that happened as it did. That was a year before the gun incidents. I can only think that if this has never happened to you, you can't possibly understand what the feeling is like. It is quite bizzare!

Walsh

Quoted: My question regarding the real-life situations is this: Anyone else ever experience time not existing? Walsh

That is common and is taught during various firearm courses. You could also add the auditory exclusion.

Neither of which I have ever experienced. In fact, my hearing became more sensitive during the incidents.

Quoted: My question regarding the real-life situations is this: Anyone else ever experience time not existing? I had an eternity to fix my eye on the front sight as I appeared to watch it in slow motion. I'm just wondering if that is why they say to use the sights because you  WILL  use them and you will shoot more accurately. Having read the book "Blink" it seems to be a phenomenem when you subconcious tells you that everything is dangerous and you might be spending your last moment alive, time all but stops.

Yup, been there several times. not for shooting but other incidents that required shall we say "Undivided attention".  Just remember a well worn buzz phrase "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast"  If you practice, practice, practice, your draw and aim slowly over and over you can gradually increase your speed.  Then when you need it, it's there in muscle memory.  What part of NC are you located in?  I'm in the foothills/Hickory area.

Its called Tachypsychia (speed of the mind)

some interesting info on tachypsychia and other bodily reactions under high stress: www.recguns.com/Sources/PhysPsych.html

Train to use the sights. If you can't see them, you are in literally the same shitty position the point shooters start out in.

And yes, I have experienced warps in my perception of time. I had what you might call a moment of clarity.

Practice makes perfect. I've been shooting for so long now that i don't even think about it when i draw and aim and shoot. Its all just one smooth motion now. I prefer to stick with one pistol and rig that works for me and get good with it and don't change. I also like the airsoft guns for practice. And i have snap caps and dry fire a lot as well. Just being very comfortable with your pistol and rig is very important.

The only time you shouldnt be using the sights is when you are shooting from retention.

Quoted: The only time you shouldn't be using the sights is when you are shooting from retention.

Whatever. I shot down 5 bowling pins with as many shots at 8 yards in the dark (The pins were white in the moonlight while my gun is all black with no night sights). It's called proprioception.  

Just because it can be done... doesn't mean its right.

I can shoot pretty well by feel in the dark too, but its no substitute for aimed fire.

I guess the thought of being responsible of where the round terminates isn't a concept some people practice.

Bowling pins at night with dark sights.. wow

Only one of my guns I carry has night sights. I still use the sights at night. Believe it or not, you can train yourself to use sights that aren't illuminated. I would say 30% of each academy class doesn't have night sights, yet they can still use them and hit the target.

Seriously, what has the world done without tritium for their guns up until this point??

RDP, to answer your question in all seriousness, you can align the sights by moonlight, use an ivory or gold front sight, or my favorite, find the sight against your own muzzle flash.  All are taught by reputable schools.

Yeah, I'll take a G2 Nitrolon for $34, Alex.

Quoted: Seriously, what has the world done without tritium for their guns up until this point??

Missed more often?

Quoted: RDP, to answer your question in all seriousness, you can align the sights by moonlight, use an ivory or gold front sight, or my favorite, find the sight against your own muzzle flash.  All are taught by reputable schools. Yeah, I'll take a G2 Nitrolon for $34, Alex.

No kidding... the concept of using sights. What some people here are not advocating.

You point and shoot.


When you carry an XD though you can do that and hit dead on.

Quoted: What part of NC are you located in?  I'm in the foothills/Hickory area.

Meck...I get to pay high taxes. Jealous?

Walsh

SouthNarc training review

This archived review of an excellent firearms training class is relevent to this topic.

Those of you who only shoot cardboard might be in for a surprise. If you get the chance to take this class, or anything similar, do it.

SouthNarc is coming back to my club in October.

Quoted: Quoted: You point and shoot. When you carry an XD though you can do that and hit dead on. Sometimes I have to wonder where people come up with this BS...

I come up with what you call BS because...

If you put a target out at 10-15 yards and I draw and shoot (pointing) as fast as I can I will hit the head probably 98 out of 100 times.

If I use my 642 I wouldnt be on it. If we use a Glock or Sig it wont happen.

I love my 642 and I like Glocks and Sigs, they are great guns.

I came up with that "BS" from my experience.

I can spin draw and hit a target more accurately at 15 yards with my XD than most people can by taking 30 seconds to line up the shot and get their breathing right.

Give me any other gun and I cant hit for crap. If you ever come to TN send me an IM. I'll put up $50 that I can point and shoot you out of a match. You can aim and take your sweet time.

Can you just put rounds in the head or can you put them where you need them? World of difference between the two

Quoted: I can spin draw and hit a target more accurately at 15 yards with my XD than most people can by taking 30 seconds to line up the shot and get their breathing right.

What is spin draw?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You point and shoot. When you carry an XD though you can do that and hit dead on. Sometimes I have to wonder where people come up with this BS... I come up with what you call BS because... If you put a target out at 10-15 yards and I draw and shoot (pointing) as fast as I can I will hit the head probably 98 out of 100 times. If I use my 642 I wouldnt be on it. If we use a Glock or Sig it wont happen. I love my 642 and I like Glocks and Sigs, they are great guns. I came up with that "BS" from my experience. I can spin draw and hit a target more accurately at 15 yards with my XD than most people can by taking 30 seconds to line up the shot and get their breathing right. Give me any other gun and I cant hit for crap. If you ever come to TN send me an IM. I'll put up $50 that I can point and shoot you out of a match. You can aim and take your sweet time.

Waldo, he wouldn't be giving you a hard time if you had said "When I carry an XD I can hit every time."

To insinuate that it works that way for everyone is silly.

BTW, don't bet against Burton. He will eat you alive and spit you back out. Believe me.

Let's put it this way. I can shoot with the sights much more accurately than you can without. I can shoot without the sights just as accurately as you can without. Your best case scenario is the same as my worst case scenario.

Quoted: If you put a target out at 10-15 yards and I draw and shoot (pointing) as fast as I can I will hit the head probably 98 out of 100 times.

Did I see you in "The Quick and The Dead?"

Walsh