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Posted: 8/21/2005 2:20:33 PM EDT
I need some help in deciding what would be the best home defense pistol round. The .45ACP has a large bullet but low mag capcity on most guns. The 9mm has low energy and a smaller bullet but it you get +P ammo with the hi capacity 9mm mags, you could have a lot more chances to shoot and hit the target. The .40S&W has the most energy and a slightly bigger bullet than the 9mm but a lower mag capacity. Which would be the best for a home defense situation for the majority of people?
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:28:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 2:40:36 PM EDT
I personally feel more comfortable with the higher mag capacity while I'm out on the street, but I think a .45 single stack should have plenty of shots in it to take care of most any home invasion scenario.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:01:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
So how many holes to you plan on shooting into your house before you hit the bad guy? High Magazine Capacity does not compensate for lack of SKILL.

.45ACP rules



+1

.45ACP rules
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:08:06 PM EDT
A revolver. .357 or .38 Special.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:17:32 PM EDT
Something reliable, as long as it's caliber starts with a 4
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 3:53:22 PM EDT
The biggest caliber you can shoot well, in a gun that is reliable and fits your hands and shooting style. No need for compacts or lightweights here.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:02:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vanilla_gorilla:
Something reliable, as long as it's caliber starts with a 4



+1
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:02:54 PM EDT
The one you shoot the best.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:09:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The biggest caliber you can shoot well, in a gun that is reliable and fits your hands and shooting style. No need for compacts or lightweights here.


+1
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:12:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 4:14:07 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 4:41:36 PM EDT
I know it sounds like a cliche, but whatever feels best. The reality of that is that will be ther most natural pointer, which translates to being on target faster.

This is NOT to be taken as an insult of the usual type handed out to someone new at a particular piece of equipment or skill but, if you have to ask that question, it implies a certain lower level of familiarity with handguns. If that is the case, I would recommend a 12 ga. shotgun. If you ultimately want to wind up with a handgun, then by all means do so, but shoot a bunch first.

I would suggest as a general comment regarding handguns in the home, fiddle with some tactical ammo. You will be shooting at short ranges, and should minimize wall penetration. Frankly, I would look at either standard performance 9mm or .45, forgetting +p, and go for something like Winchester Silvertip or SXT, or Ranger T if you can get it in your state. You'll see why if you see a photo of an expaqnded round. You might also look into Magsafe. There are limitations in its performance, but I do not feel that's an issue in the house. And, they will basically come apart when hitting a wall.

Pay attention to your tactics, also. If you have kids in another room, that dictates one response to an intruder. If it's just you and the wife, that's another. In the latter case it is simple, call 911, say what you can, leave the phone on line and microphone up. Don't "go hunting". Let the intruder come to you (assuming) in your bedroom. You will only have to worry about a narrow field of fire (your bedroom door). Don't go around the house exposing yourself to an unknown number in unknown locations. Hopefully the Sheriff will come and take them as guests. ANd, if the worst has to happen, you will have a more legally defensible position in your bedroom.
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 5:49:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 5:49:56 PM EDT by MST2]
Auto or Revolver calibers?

If auto .45acp

If revolver 500 SW
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 8:03:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Death_005:
I need some help in deciding what would be the best home defense pistol round. The .45ACP has a large bullet but low mag capcity on most guns. The 9mm has low energy and a smaller bullet but it you get +P ammo with the hi capacity 9mm mags, you could have a lot more chances to shoot and hit the target. The .40S&W has the most energy and a slightly bigger bullet than the 9mm but a lower mag capacity. Which would be the best for a home defense situation for the majority of people?



The .45 ACP round would be the best.
But why would you want a pistol for home defense? I know for a fact that you own a Bushmaster 20inch A2 model so perhaps that is too big for you to lug around the home. Why not pick your 870? True it doesn't have very many rounds and it doesn't have much of a spread when using buckshot at those close ranges, especially since you cannot use birdshot because it cannot reach vitals. I would grab my M4 and tap the baddies with a few 55gr. fragmenting copper and lead shrapnel bits. 31 Rounds, small package, you ain't gonna miss with a rifle and its got a nice energy foot poundage behind it.

Back to my reasoning;
The .45 ACP would be the best round. In a USP you get 12+1 and in a fullsize Glock I think you may even get more rounds. If your into some reading you can read: www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf.

Out of the three rounds you listed and you had a USP of each on a table (16 9 "Mini" Meteres, 14 .40 S&W, and 13 .45 ACP) I woud grab the .45 ACP and blast away. The recoil difference is minimal and can easily be overcome with just a little bit of practice and upper body workout. The wounding difference is better. You get a bigger hole which is the only thing that matters in a pistol caliber, as temporary cavity doesn't matter unless it is either the brain which cannot strech well or the liver. Your blood vessels and muscles will merely "strech" along with the temporary cavity then collapse back onto the permant cavity caused by the diameter of the lead slug in the enemy thug. (Lol ryme). Which of the three causes the biggest cavity? The .45 ACP.

Now if given a broader selection, I think the .50 GI would be a great round as you get .05 larger cavity. The 500 S&W might honeslty dump enough energy into the target to actually nock it down, as well as the .50 AE, since both of those have alot of kick which is how much "energy" the other guy is going to get hit with.

Here is your baddie target: Pop cans (spinal chord) stacked vertically with a canelope (head) stacked atop. Your going to have to hit that target to IMMEDIATLY put the bad guy down, any other shot, even a heart shot will NOT work instantly. You know this perhaps from hunting deer that they can run for hundreds of yards after taking a fatal shot. A human doped up on drugs will act instinctivly just as the deer does. Please read the link included in this thread as it will broaden your understanding of how bullets kill people.

Disclaimer for all Death_006 to Death_005 posts
You guys jump to conclusions waaaaaaaay to fast. We both are friends in the outside world and when he joined this forum he chose a name similar to mine since we play video games together and use the same name online. Gotta put that into there to prevent flaming.

"DEATH_005" JUST GOT A NEW SIG P226R!!!
(Nine Mini-Meter)=9mm
(A. C.aliber that P.wns.)=ACP
(Strength and Weight)=.40 S&W

Link Posted: 8/21/2005 8:06:11 PM EDT
Mine is a SW40VE with 15 rounds! But bigger is always better...
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:02:25 PM EDT
A relable .45 that is comfortable to you.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:18:43 PM EDT
I myself use a 45ACP, the wife uses a hi-cap 9mm, that's what she is comfortable with. She is more accurate with her 9mm, than when she tries to shoot the 45ACP. The largest caliber you can handle accurately.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:26:00 PM EDT
12 gauge pump!!! There is nothing better for home defense!!! You don't have to worry much about marksmanship. It will make a bit more of a mess than a .45, but hey, paint is cheap your life is priceless!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:40:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 12:40:41 PM EDT by meltdown]

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
12 gauge pump!!! There is nothing better for home defense!!! You don't have to worry much about marksmanship. <snip>



Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:48:25 PM EDT
One word GLOCK !!!

hi cap mags for ALL those cals .....
Shit in my G21 has 13 round mag !, my G17 has a 17 round mag !
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:51:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
12 gauge pump!!! There is nothing better for home defense!!! You don't have to worry much about marksmanship. It will make a bit more of a mess than a .45, but hey, paint is cheap your life is priceless!



+1

- on the PART you don't NEED any marksmanship !!!!
you've been watching toooo much tv !!!!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:12:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tooly:

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
12 gauge pump!!! There is nothing better for home defense!!! You don't have to worry much about marksmanship. It will make a bit more of a mess than a .45, but hey, paint is cheap your life is priceless!



+1

- on the PART you don't NEED any marksmanship !!!!
you've been watching toooo much tv !!!!hr


If you are trying to say that a shotgun requires just as much marksmanship as a pistol, then I'm afraid you and gomer pyle have some issues. I believe that there is a good reason they call it a "scatter gun"
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:18:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 1:23:55 PM EDT by AJohnston]
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:27:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AJohnston:

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
If you are trying to say that a shotgun requires just as much marksmanship as a pistol, then I'm afraid you and gomer pyle have some issues. I believe that there is a good reason they call it a "scatter gun"



Contrary to popular belief (and depending on barrel choking, length and load used) at short-range engagement distances (read 25 yards and in) a shotgun acts very much like a rifle and if one fails to aim one will fail to hit the target. You can’t just point the shotgun down the hall, out the door, or around the corner and expect to hit what you see. You must use and align the sights if you want to make hits, as the spread of the shot is generally far less than what people think and the “scatter gun” philosophy is not much more than wishful thinking.

I suspect a shotgun class would be fairly enlightening for you.



+ 1
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:30:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AJohnston:

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
If you are trying to say that a shotgun requires just as much marksmanship as a pistol, then I'm afraid you and gomer pyle have some issues. I believe that there is a good reason they call it a "scatter gun"



Contrary to popular belief (and depending on barrel choking, length and load used) at short-range engagement distances (read 30 yards and in) a shotgun acts very much like a rifle and if one fails to aim one will fail to hit the target.

I suspect a shotgun class would be fairly enlightening for you.



The shotgun under short distances acts just like a rifle, depending on the load. If your using a fine shot such as #8, you do get a little spread effect, but the pellets lack the ability to penetrate to reach the vital organs. To do this requires the use of 00 or 000 Buckshot. However using these greatly reduce the scatter effect the shotgun is so famous for. Hornady advertises something like a 1.5x2'' group at 10 yards (30') using their 00 TAP load. Considering most shotguns carry somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-8 rounds you are hard pressed if you miss anything. Coupled with this is the fact that the shotgun is so very long and large in order to carry this number of rounds, which makes it very hard to go through doorways and such. Recoil usually for most people prevent the quick follow up shots which are so often needed to subdue a threat.

A much better choice for home defense is a small compact M4 style carbine. Under close ranges it will act just as the shotgun pellets do. With the small size, it is perfect for home defense and it very easy to handle with the use of a forward grip. You also get 31 rounds compared to 5-8 and in some cases with a Beta C-Mag 101 rounds. Death_005 doesn't have access to this type of weapon so I suggested he used his 870 as it is the best he has access to, not becaue you do not have to aim, but just because it is the best HE can bring to the table.

Disclaimer for all Death_006 to Death_005 posts
You guys jump to conclusions waaaaaaaay to fast. We both are friends in the outside world and when he joined this forum he chose a name similar to mine since we play video games together and use the same name online. Gotta put that into there to prevent flaming.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:41:28 PM EDT
From my experience, I have managed to hit everything that I put that little white bead on.

I'm sure that your neighbors would appreciate you and your 100rd beta C-mag turning your walls into swiss cheese from your FMJ rifle rounds in hopes of clipping your intruder. If you can't drop a person in the confines of your own house with a shotgun, then it scares me to know that you have access to rifle with a 100rd mag.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 4:12:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 4:14:47 PM EDT by Death_006]

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
From my experience, I have managed to hit everything that I put that little white bead on.

I'm sure that your neighbors would appreciate you and your 100rd beta C-mag turning your walls into swiss cheese from your FMJ rifle rounds in hopes of clipping your intruder. If you can't drop a person in the confines of your own house with a shotgun, then it scares me to know that you have access to rifle with a 100rd mag.



From my experience I have managed to hit everything that I put my little red Aimpoint dot on. I know for a fact that my neighbors would be fine if a round hit my outer walls. Some of us do not live in low income housing or an apartment. I have made a mock wall using the excess building materials left over from our home and the 5.56 XM193 was easily stopped. I am sorry if your outer walls of made of siding and dry wall. I would not recommend a Beta-C Mag for self defense as they are pretty finicky about feeding. I would take the tried and true USGI or Labelle Magazine.

Disclaimer for all Death_006 to Death_005 posts
You guys jump to conclusions waaaaaaaay to fast. We both are friends in the outside world and when he joined this forum he chose a name similar to mine since we play video games together and use the same name online. Gotta put that into there to prevent flaming.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 5:30:18 PM EDT
Well then I fear for the poor burglar that gets into your bullet proof house and finds you with your M4gery, 100rd C-mag, Aimpoint, and NVGs. Am I missing anything?

And to think that I was accused of watching too much TV. I think you play too many video games my friend.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 6:28:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tooly:
One word GLOCK !!!

hi cap mags for ALL those cals .....
Shit in my G21 has 13 round mag !, my G17 has a 17 round mag !



Glock 19 is my new home defense pistol. I think 16 hydra-shoks should take care of them. If not 30 q313a will
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:34:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Srigs:
Mine is a SW40VE with 15 rounds! But bigger is always better...



I forgot to add one that points well and reliable! Lack of safeties are a good thing in a HD gun because there is less to remember when you need it!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 7:40:30 PM EDT
USPf 12rd
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:47:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
Well then I fear for the poor burglar that gets into your bullet proof house and finds you with your M4gery, 100rd C-mag, Aimpoint, and NVGs. Am I missing anything?

And to think that I was accused of watching too much TV. I think you play too many video games my friend.



What did you expect when you try to say the scatter of a shotgun makes up for bad aim? Thats one of the big urban legends we all dispel when we hear ignorance like that.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:17:41 PM EDT
for home defense, I use my S&W .500 revolver hahaha
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 5:39:37 PM EDT
if you're at home, you only need enough rounds to get to your AR
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:27:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
if you're at home, you only need enough rounds to get to your AR



+1

And for me this will hopefully be 13 or less .45 Gold Dots.

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:16:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
12 gauge pump!!! There is nothing better for home defense!!! You don't have to worry much about marksmanship. It will make a bit more of a mess than a .45, but hey, paint is cheap your life is priceless!

+1. It's always good to have a variety though. If you live by yourself, keep a pistol at your bedside incase an intruder can sneak up on you, but definitely have a 12 gauge with bird shot, it wont over penetrate, it is hard to miss a person in close quarters, and it has more knockdown power than any pistol.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:59:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
if you're at home, you only need enough rounds to get to your AR



Yep, that's why I like to keep it simple. I have a pistol by my bedside, and an AR-10 ready to go in the closet. The Hornady tactical rounds are qui nice, and I don't think they'll penetrate the outer walls of the house.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:02:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Death_005:
I need some help in deciding what would be the best home defense pistol round. The .45ACP has a large bullet but low mag capcity on most guns. The 9mm has low energy and a smaller bullet but it you get +P ammo with the hi capacity 9mm mags, you could have a lot more chances to shoot and hit the target. The .40S&W has the most energy and a slightly bigger bullet than the 9mm but a lower mag capacity. Which would be the best for a home defense situation for the majority of people?



Anything reliable in .45 ACP

If you can't hit what your shooting at in 7 shots, it's too late anyway.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:21:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 52brandon:

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
12 gauge pump!!! There is nothing better for home defense!!! You don't have to worry much about marksmanship. It will make a bit more of a mess than a .45, but hey, paint is cheap your life is priceless!

+1. It's always good to have a variety though. If you live by yourself, keep a pistol at your bedside incase an intruder can sneak up on you, but definitely have a 12 gauge with bird shot, it wont over penetrate, it is hard to miss a person in close quarters, and it has more knockdown power than any pistol.



I must respectfully disagree.

It will hardly penetrate at all and will have nowhere near as much "knockdown power" as any commonly accepted hd/sd round.

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:18:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Seydou:

Originally Posted By 52brandon:

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
12 gauge pump!!! There is nothing better for home defense!!! You don't have to worry much about marksmanship. It will make a bit more of a mess than a .45, but hey, paint is cheap your life is priceless!

+1. It's always good to have a variety though. If you live by yourself, keep a pistol at your bedside incase an intruder can sneak up on you, but definitely have a 12 gauge with bird shot, it wont over penetrate, it is hard to miss a person in close quarters, and it has more knockdown power than any pistol.



I must respectfully disagree.

It will hardly penetrate at all and will have nowhere near as much "knockdown power" as any commonly accepted hd/sd round.


Seydou



+1

Omg, what is it with these shotgun people?

"me birdie shotter take dat badie down real good!"

Tactical weapons are made for tactical home defense situations. Shotguns are not the best choice for home defense. They do work however if you cannot find an alternative. I must say that you will have an easier time of shooting a bad guy 5 times with a short AR-15, or even once for that matter than you will with a massive long, hunting type shotgun. If your shooting a double tap, it will be harder to hit the target a second time with the semi-shotgun, or if it is a pump, lol good luck getting a second shot. The AR-15 has no kick, is much more manuverable and has EXCELLENT terminal ballistics.

I would take the biggest gun you can handle, which in your case would be a .40 S&W. If you had a .45 ACP I would say that. If you had a 50 GI I would say that. But you don't and I would recomend your XD (as long as you get it fixed) over the nine minimeter SIG P226R.

Disclaimer for all Death_006 to Death_005 posts
You guys jump to conclusions waaaaaaaay to fast. We both are friends in the outside world and when he joined this forum he chose a name similar to mine since we play video games together and use the same name online. Gotta put that into there to prevent flaming.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:26:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 12:29:10 PM EDT by Marksman14]

Originally Posted By Greco7778:
Well then I fear for the poor burglar that gets into your bullet proof house and finds you with your M4gery, 100rd C-mag, Aimpoint, and NVGs. Am I missing anything?

And to think that I was accused of watching too much TV. I think you play too many video games my friend.



You'd best do some more research on ballistics before you come in here running your mouth.

I'd be more than happy to explain to you why you're wrong on a majority of the crap you've spouted, but there are so many other places on this site that the information can be found...its amazing.

Read up a bit bud.

Plus, its also good to stay on topic.

This thread is about HOME DEFENSE PISTOLS

it has nothing to do with what weapon is ideal for HD.

As far as my choice...

Kimber TLE RL 2 w/ M3x, or USP Tactical with M2.

Both have magazines loaded up with Hornady 230grn +P JHP's ready to go. Its only a matter of which one is closer.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:17:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By Death_005:
I need some help in deciding what would be the best home defense pistol round. The .45ACP has a large bullet but low mag capcity on most guns. The 9mm has low energy and a smaller bullet but it you get +P ammo with the hi capacity 9mm mags, you could have a lot more chances to shoot and hit the target. The .40S&W has the most energy and a slightly bigger bullet than the 9mm but a lower mag capacity. Which would be the best for a home defense situation for the majority of people?



Anything reliable in .45 ACP

If you can't hit what your shooting at in 7 shots, it's too late anyway.



With multiple attackers you need additional rounds. Never enough in the magazine.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 2:46:09 PM EDT
Another vote for the USPf 12rd .
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:12:42 PM EDT
I have to agree about the 12ga being a great home defense wepon however the question was about pistols and even though you can put a pistol grip on a 12ga I do not normaly count it as a pistol. So I still go with the most relable and comfortable .45 you can afford.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 3:52:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:05:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Death_006:
Omg, what is it with these shotgun people?

"me birdie shotter take dat badie down real good!"

Tactical weapons are made for tactical home defense situations. Shotguns are not the best choice for home defense. They do work however if you cannot find an alternative. I must say that you will have an easier time of shooting a bad guy 5 times with a short AR-15, or even once for that matter than you will with a massive long, hunting type shotgun. If your shooting a double tap, it will be harder to hit the target a second time with the semi-shotgun, or if it is a pump, lol good luck getting a second shot. The AR-15 has no kick, is much more manuverable and has EXCELLENT terminal ballistics.

I would take the biggest gun you can handle, which in your case would be a .40 S&W. If you had a .45 ACP I would say that. If you had a 50 GI I would say that. But you don't and I would recomend your XD (as long as you get it fixed) over the nine minimeter SIG P226R.

Disclaimer for all Death_006 to Death_005 posts
You guys jump to conclusions waaaaaaaay to fast. We both are friends in the outside world and when he joined this forum he chose a name similar to mine since we play video games together and use the same name online. Gotta put that into there to prevent flaming.


ever hear of a tactical shotgun? Don't mean to overload you with info here or anything. Have you seen somebody shot pointblank in the chest with a 12 gauge? Don't get me wrong an AR is a great weapon, which is why I own 2. But I do not want to deal with the legal reprocussions of hitting a neighbor through a flimsy apartment wall with a missed shot. Which is why I still have to say shotgun. And you saying "the biggest caliber" proves to me that you don't know what you are talking about. It's all about placement, as long as you use the right ammo a 9 is just as deadly as a .45.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:12:23 PM EDT
Glock 21

.45acp, hi-cap (13 rnds), low-recoil felt (for a .45), cheap/readily available mags, simple, reliable, rail for tac light, durable, easy to use

you can still make the argument of 9mm vs. .45acp or .40sw, but at close ranges/CQB/inside your home, its tough to beat a .45acp (recoil, but less 'snappy' than .40sw, decent penetration w/ any load

--you can use +p .45acp ammo too, and that still tops +p(+) 9mm; also, 9mm +p(+) ammo will have more recoil than regular 9mm, so its still a trade off for more recoil for more energy/velocity

if you are worried about mag capacity--CARRY MORE MAGS!!!

paramount (besides reliablity) is to practice and good shot placement--i.e.: if you dont practice, it wont matter if its 9mm or .45acp or .40sw (i'd still go .45acp)

as to shotguns, well you asked for a PISTOL....so i'll leave the long guns alone
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:09:02 PM EDT
I've said it before. The .45 is GREAT for laying down cover fire on the way to the 12 ga. shotgun. If I'm gonna hurt 'em in my house, I'm gonna hurt 'em REAL bad. Yes dear, in the event you must use the guns to repel home invaders while I'm not around, just pull the trigger until it goes click and then pick up the next one and keep shooting. When the nice policeman asks why you shot them that many times, tell him you ran out of bullets.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:16:50 PM EDT
glock 19:

the best handgun ever produced
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:56:55 PM EDT
I personally have a .357 mag revolver, if that's not enough I was probably screwed to begin with, or it will get me to the safe for a rifle.

On the subject of penetration with different calibers/ammo : www.theboxotruth.com/
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 12:06:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 12:06:22 AM EDT by swingset]

Originally Posted By EternalVigilance:
glock 19: Sig 220 in .45acp

the best handgun ever produced



Couldn't agree more. I like the way you think.
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