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Posted: 1/27/2006 11:00:27 PM EDT
How many use this?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:40:54 PM EDT
I don't, but I am sure some people here do. I recall a heated discussion about it about a year or so ago.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 11:47:22 PM EDT
Only in a SHTF situation. There are too many better choices out there.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 3:19:07 AM EDT
I use Hungarian MFS +P FMJ
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:20:13 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:40:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 5:45:27 AM EDT
I used to, but now running Golden Sabres in my USP45f and Win Silvertips in my 1911.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 6:44:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dennysguns:
To quote Jeff Cooper "They all fall to hard ball."

230 grain mil spec or equivilent will get the job done.

That said there is better defensive ammo out there. Just make sure if it is a SHTF pistol that it feeds it reliably 100% of the time. Also make sure your have the right spring in your .45 for the load you are going to bet your life on.

Personally I use 230 grain Winchester Black Talon. Each of my 1911's are test fired with at least 10 mag fulls of the stuff before I use the pistol for carry. If there are issues we polish the ramps, check the feed angles, magazines etc. Some times we have to tune the extractor.

What ever you choose just make damn sure your 1911 likes it too

I use 1911's almost exclusively for a personal protection handgun. I kinda figure if the bullet expands it is just bonus points, you are punching a .45" hole in the guy anyway

Denny



+1 I use 230 grain Winchester, more then enough to get the job done.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 7:06:03 AM EDT
Personally I think .45 ball ammo woudl work just fine, after all that is what it was made for. Taking out doped up loonies in their tracks with a single shot at close range.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 9:59:22 AM EDT
Hardball is just fine with me. I shoot WW Silvertips on occassion but never worry with ball. JD
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:29:24 AM EDT
not the best option but it sure as hell beats a sharp stick
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:34:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 10:35:06 AM EDT by rmdugan84]

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Personally I think .45 ball ammo woudl work just fine, after all that is what it was made for. Taking out doped up loonies in their tracks with a single shot at close range.



Sorry but that isn't the real world...

ETA: I've seen a few tests done that show that 45 ball has like 2% more one shot stops than 9mm ball. They seem to be almost the same performance wise
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:49:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rmdugan84:

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Personally I think .45 ball ammo woudl work just fine, after all that is what it was made for. Taking out doped up loonies in their tracks with a single shot at close range.



Sorry but that isn't the real world...

ETA: I've seen a few tests done that show that 45 ball has like 2% more one shot stops than 9mm ball. They seem to be almost the same performance wise



but but but, .45ACP is the tactical nuke of the handgun world! one discharge and its all over!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:
I don't, but I am sure some people here do. I recall a heated discussion about it about a year or so ago.



Ain't that the truth...
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:32:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 11:37:56 AM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By twonami:
Only in a SHTF situation. There are too many better choices out there.



+1
For everyday carry, you can afford a box of 50 top notch JHPs for your carry gun and spare mags.
For SHTF, I would not feel undergunned with FMJ.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:51:24 AM EDT
Why the hell would you not use something that could make your weapon more effective? Sure, some HPs might not expand ALL the time, but ball NEVER will. For some people, I think its just an excuse to be cheap.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:38:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:41:02 AM EDT by DienBienPhu54]
I use the same ammo I use at the range, Winchester 230 gr fmj ball 100 rd value pack from Walmart
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:47:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 8:48:36 AM EDT by danpass]
I carry 230 Gold Dots but would have no problem using WWB 230grn FMJ. A recent article recommended FMJ as an adequate defensive round based on its history and the authors personal experience.

He describes 5 instances where he used .45ACP FMJ, only one where bullet penetrated all the way and even then was found just several feet behind the perp. He said most were one stop shots and never more than 2 shots.

I believe it was a .45ACP specific article so no mention of any other calibers, much less any comparison.

Will try to get magazine and issue date tonight (its on the nightstand)
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:51:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Why the hell would you not use something that could make your weapon more effective? Sure, some HPs might not expand ALL the time, but ball NEVER will. For some people, I think its just an excuse to be cheap.



The argument that you are asking for would take hours to deliver. I am converted, I no longer believe in JHP's.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:00:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 9:02:55 AM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By ASU1911:

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Why the hell would you not use something that could make your weapon more effective? Sure, some HPs might not expand ALL the time, but ball NEVER will. For some people, I think its just an excuse to be cheap.



The argument that you are asking for would take hours to deliver. I am converted, I no longer believe in JHP's.




...and would probably invlove lots of circular logic nonsense. How can you not "believe" in JHP. It's not as if we are discussing UFOs or Bigfoot.

An expanded JHP IS more effective than FMJ. A larger, irregularly shaped, rough object will disrupt more tissue and thus induce more trauma than a smaller, rounded, smooth object.

Some argue that they carry FMJ because it is "more reliable." If your primary means of self defense will not feed JHP, it's time to buy a new pistol.

I would only advocate the possible use of FMJ as defensive ammo in a caliber that is LIGHT and SLOW, such as the .32ACP.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:30:49 AM EDT
Depends on the situation. FMJ has better penetration and feeds more reliably, so that would probably be a better choice in a serious SHTF situation when you might have sand or dust in the weapon and/or may be dealing with hostiles who are wearing heavy clothes or light body armor (flak vests). FMJ will punch right through that stuff. JHP may or may not. For normal personal defense stuff, though, you want JHP because it incapacitates quicker (ask any experienced hunter about the difference in terminal performance between FMJ and expanding ammo) and limits overpenetration, which would be a concern if there's bystanders or neighbors. I think Clint Smith said it best: "A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle". As much as I admire Jeff Cooper (and I think he was right about the 10mm ), his frame of reference was from a different era, when we didn't have reliably expanding JHP loads like we have today and his experience was primarily military in nature and I'm sure we all know there's some major differences between using a pistol in a military situation vs. using one as a civilian in self-defense.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:45:37 PM EDT


Originally Posted By danpass:
I carry 230 Gold Dots but would have no problem using WWB 230grn FMJ. A recent article recommended FMJ as an adequate defensive round based on its history and the authors personal experience.

He describes 5 instances where he used .45ACP FMJ, only one where bullet penetrated all the way and even then was found just several feet behind the perp. He said most were one stop shots and never more than 2 shots.

I believe it was a .45ACP specific article so no mention of any other calibers, much less any comparison.

Will try to get magazine and issue date tonight (its on the nightstand)




Found it:

Chuck Taylor in Combat Handguns, Feb 2006 talks about the feasability of .45ACP FMJ as a defensive round.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:54:19 PM EDT
I'm sure this link is not new to anyone on this forum; but it does show information about the JHP vs FMJ issue from the FBI's study. Everyone should shoot what they have confidence in and what works in their own pistol. JD

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:02:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jackd1:
I'm sure this link is not new to anyone on this forum; but it does show information about the JHP vs FMJ issue from the FBI's study. Everyone should shoot what they have confidence in and what works in their own pistol. JD

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm



Good publication. Would be nice if they would update it a bit (July 14, 1989)
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:16:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By danpass:
Originally Posted By jackd1:
I'm sure this link is not new to anyone on this forum; but it does show information about the JHP vs FMJ issue from the FBI's study. Everyone should shoot what they have confidence in and what works in their own pistol. JD

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Good publication. Would be nice if they would update it a bit (July 14, 1989)

No doubt things have improved since then. Lets hope we have made some improvements since then!! JD
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:19:08 PM EDT
It punches a hole, causing massive blood loss - therefore, it works. (just my opinion)
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 9:23:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By rmdugan84:

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Personally I think .45 ball ammo woudl work just fine, after all that is what it was made for. Taking out doped up loonies in their tracks with a single shot at close range.



Sorry but that isn't the real world...

ETA: I've seen a few tests done that show that 45 ball has like 2% more one shot stops than 9mm ball. They seem to be almost the same performance wise



but but but, .45ACP is the tactical nuke of the handgun world! one discharge and its all over!

True, but I think it could be improved GREATLY if we added a pump and action bars to our pistols, that way, we could just rack it and the FMJ vs. JHP debate would be solved as the perp would be shitting himself as he ran away!
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:06:27 PM EDT
Arguing about which .45 ACP round is more deadly is like arguing about weather it hurts more to be hit by a School bus or a dump truck! Both will kill you just fine and there is probably no wrong answer to the debate.

One different reason to use a JHP round is that they are marketed as personal defense ammo. This is important if you would be in an unfortunate position that required you to shoot a criminal. If ball ammo is used, the criminal's lawyer (or local DA) could argue that your failure to use appropriate defensive ammo was indicative of your desire to inflict undue pain on the criminal, not just stop an attack. When my uncle had to defend his store against a midnight attacker, the local DA attempted to charge him with murder citing this same "logic". A good lawyer, $100,000, and 10 months later, the DA dropped the charges, but a good JHP round might have prevented the fiasco.

On a personal note: the same uncle mentioned above was in Vietnam and he swears by the .45 ACP FMJ round, citing several incidents were the round performed flawlessly during "stressful" situations.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:34:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 6:34:56 PM EDT by danpass]

Originally Posted By vaughn4380:
Arguing about which .45 ACP round is more deadly is like arguing about weather it hurts more to be hit by a School bus or a dump truck! Both will kill you just fine and there is probably no wrong answer to the debate.

One different reason to use a JHP round is that they are marketed as personal defense ammo. This is important if you would be in an unfortunate position that required you to shoot a criminal. If ball ammo is used, the criminal's lawyer (or local DA) could argue that your failure to use appropriate defensive ammo was indicative of your desire to inflict undue pain on the criminal, not just stop an attack. When my uncle had to defend his store against a midnight attacker, the local DA attempted to charge him with murder citing this same "logic". A good lawyer, $100,000, and 10 months later, the DA dropped the charges, but a good JHP round might have prevented the fiasco.

On a personal note: the same uncle mentioned above was in Vietnam and he swears by the .45 ACP FMJ round, citing several incidents were the round performed flawlessly during "stressful" situations.



I wonder why the DA charged him at all

Did the defending lawyer use the ol' "military use ball ammo to prevent undue pain"?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:48:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 6:54:34 PM EDT by vaughn4380]

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By vaughn4380:
Arguing about which .45 ACP round is more deadly is like arguing about weather it hurts more to be hit by a School bus or a dump truck! Both will kill you just fine and there is probably no wrong answer to the debate.

One different reason to use a JHP round is that they are marketed as personal defense ammo. This is important if you would be in an unfortunate position that required you to shoot a criminal. If ball ammo is used, the criminal's lawyer (or local DA) could argue that your failure to use appropriate defensive ammo was indicative of your desire to inflict undue pain on the criminal, not just stop an attack. When my uncle had to defend his store against a midnight attacker, the local DA attempted to charge him with murder citing this same "logic". A good lawyer, $100,000, and 10 months later, the DA dropped the charges, but a good JHP round might have prevented the fiasco.

On a personal note: the same uncle mentioned above was in Vietnam and he swears by the .45 ACP FMJ round, citing several incidents were the round performed flawlessly during "stressful" situations.



I wonder why the DA charged him at all

Did the defending lawyer use the ol' "military use ball ammo to prevent undue pain"?



It was a very liberal state and the DA clearly was more worried about making a political statement over any concern for doing the right thing. I am not sure how the charges were dropped, I will have to ask at the next family get together.

ETA: the family was in shock, we were like "this guy tried to kill our relative and the local PD is more pissed about a "victim" fighting back than the criminal who originally intiated the attack!
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:51:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vaughn4380:

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By vaughn4380:
Arguing about which .45 ACP round is more deadly is like arguing about weather it hurts more to be hit by a School bus or a dump truck! Both will kill you just fine and there is probably no wrong answer to the debate.

One different reason to use a JHP round is that they are marketed as personal defense ammo. This is important if you would be in an unfortunate position that required you to shoot a criminal. If ball ammo is used, the criminal's lawyer (or local DA) could argue that your failure to use appropriate defensive ammo was indicative of your desire to inflict undue pain on the criminal, not just stop an attack. When my uncle had to defend his store against a midnight attacker, the local DA attempted to charge him with murder citing this same "logic". A good lawyer, $100,000, and 10 months later, the DA dropped the charges, but a good JHP round might have prevented the fiasco.

On a personal note: the same uncle mentioned above was in Vietnam and he swears by the .45 ACP FMJ round, citing several incidents were the round performed flawlessly during "stressful" situations.



I wonder why the DA charged him at all

Did the defending lawyer use the ol' "military use ball ammo to prevent undue pain"?



It was very liberal state and the DA clearly was more worried about making a political statement over any concern for doing the right thing. I am not sure how the charges were dropped, I will have to ask at the next family get together.



Excellent example of how tort reform would have prevented a $100,000 case, not to mention the time involved.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:57:42 PM EDT
To you and I that makes sense, to a liberal you speak blasphemy!
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:16:05 PM EDT
I have been using the federal .45 ammo with a nylon ball inside. It's good stuff, I've switched from gold dots
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:22:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 7:30:48 PM EDT by unkempt1]
I carry ball ammo 99% of the time in my Para P12. it eats it up.

I'm pretty sure I could hit them with either though and pretty sure they'd go down. one shot or 13.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:24:01 PM EDT
IMHO its irresponsible.

I carry 230gr Speer Gold Dot. My G21 will eat anything.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:29:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By jackd1:
I'm sure this link is not new to anyone on this forum; but it does show information about the JHP vs FMJ issue from the FBI's study. Everyone should shoot what they have confidence in and what works in their own pistol. JD

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm



Good publication. Would be nice if they would update it a bit (July 14, 1989) hr



I don't think it has needed to be updated. It is still valid.

Dave Williams
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:57:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 10:00:09 PM EDT by ASU1911]

Originally Posted By triburst1:

...and would probably invlove lots of circular logic nonsense. How can you not "believe" in JHP.




They don't seem to work nearly as well as they are supposed to. they plug and they don't always feed right, let alone expand under all possible conditions. Bullets do weird things, but ball seems to do weird things less often.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:58:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:
Excellent example of how tort reform would have prevented a $100,000 case, not to mention the time involved.



That's not tort, those were criminal murder charges being pressed for the political gain of the prosector.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 6:33:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ASU1911:

Originally Posted By danpass:
Excellent example of how tort reform would have prevented a $100,000 case, not to mention the time involved.



That's not tort, those were criminal murder charges being pressed for the political gain of the prosector.



Understood. I was talking in the sense that the loser pays ALL the fees. Would have made this self-serving DA fool think twice before pressing any kind of charges at all!
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:03:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 7:04:10 AM EDT by TheWonkerer]
A loser pays system would be good.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:58:26 AM EDT
Personal day to day carry ammo should be premium self-defense ammo (Ranger's, Gold Dots, Golden Saber, TAP) not doing so is just plain stupid. Also there are a lot of cheap lesser quality JHP's out there that would be good choiced to add to the SHTF stockpile. I would use FMJ ammo in the handgun only as a last resort.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 10:52:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 10:53:41 AM EDT by JJREA]
I should've never came in here and looked.

I just love how people will call other people ignorant or stupid for not doing something that they do. Are you guys that unsure of yourself that you have to berate people for their choices? Just because someone chooses to carry Ball in .45 or anything doesn't make them less intelligent. We may have good reasons for it. That's our choice. Not yours. Triburst. I'm sure you've shot lots of people with .45 HP's, Ha? If anyone is ignorant it's you by believing all the HP hype by the manufactures and gun rags.

Shoot what you want, it's a free country. I just can't sit by and listen to sniveling upstarts that think they know everything try and school everyone.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 11:41:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JaketheSnake:
I have been using the federal .45 ammo with a nylon ball inside. It's good stuff, I've switched from gold dots



You bring up a good point, the federal ammo with the nylon ball is just one example, corbon's power ball is another. There are several types of new ammo on the market that contain a nylon ball that improve the basic hollow point design. The ball prevents plugging up with clothing and allows the round to function like a FMJ in a pistol, but expand like a JHP in flesh. It combines the best of both worlds, might be a good choice for those that can't make up their mind between FMJ and JHP. I personally use corbon's power ball in my G19 and love it.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 12:05:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 3:54:17 PM EDT
i thought the reason the military did not use hollow points was they were not allowed by nato or geneva conv or something. causing unnecessary destruction, like pineapple grenades. i could be wrong though. so this makes that DAs argument backwards.
i use 230 gr FMJ. people wear a lot of clothes up here in AK. i would rather have hollow points in a 9mm, but for a .45 they are not necessary.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 3:59:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rmdugan84:

Originally Posted By GaryM:
Personally I think .45 ball ammo woudl work just fine, after all that is what it was made for. Taking out doped up loonies in their tracks with a single shot at close range.



Sorry but that isn't the real world...

ETA: I've seen a few tests done that show that 45 ball has like 2% more one shot stops than 9mm ball. They seem to be almost the same performance wise



Marshal and Sanow are not reliable sources.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 4:02:10 PM EDT
All I know is Clint Smith carries harball. I do to, mostly because I can't legally buy pistol ammo so it is much easier to have someone just buy me a case of ammo instead of mix and match practice ammo and hardball.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:01:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/4/2006 5:02:03 PM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
All I know is Clint Smith carries harball.



Only because an ammo company hasn't offered him an endorsement deal for "Thunder Ranch" hollow points.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:11:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Personal day to day carry ammo should be premium self-defense ammo (Ranger's, Gold Dots, Golden Saber, TAP) not doing so is just plain stupid. Also there are a lot of cheap lesser quality JHP's out there that would be good choiced to add to the SHTF stockpile. I would use FMJ ammo in the handgun only as a last resort.



I'd carry good JHP's for standard defensive stuff, but I would use ball if I was concerned about lack of penetration or I was using a pistol (out of necessity) that had questionable reliability.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 5:12:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
All I know is Clint Smith carries harball.



Only because an ammo company hasn't offered him an endorsement deal for "Thunder Ranch" hollow points.





I heard a story about Clint. He sent his TR special in to Les Baer to be tuned up after he had shot it for a year or two. They called and asked if he wanted a new barrel because "you don't have any rifling left in the first inch of it."

Crazy.
Link Posted: 2/4/2006 7:23:40 PM EDT
I agree with that fact that Hollow points "MAY" work better.


BUT!

For those that say it is ignorant NOT to use HP ammo you need to step back and take a look in the mirror. Do you train to fight? Of course....you should at least.

With this in mind...you should be using your ranger ammo or what not at the range right!?!

I willing to bet though you dont!

I would feel more comfortable trusting my life to FMJ than HP because I KNOW how it functions in my 1911. On occasion I throw in some HP and of course....it doesnt feed as reliably as my FMJ. Sure you can blame this on a number of factors but my feedramp IS polished...I have a flared ejection port and all the other bells and whistles.

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