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Posted: 4/13/2006 11:41:56 PM EST
I CHOOSE THE GOLDEN SABER 185 +P 45 ACP

AND HERE IS WHY
45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.

NOW KEEP IN MIND THEY ARE USING 185 I AM USING 185+P
EVEN MORE POWER SO I WOULD SAY 98%
www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/golden_saber/
www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm


Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:15:10 AM EST
I really dont buy into the one shot stop stats, too many variables involved. I doubt seriously that you're gonna find any really poor stoppers in any of the modern 45acp JHP loadings. I personally care the Ranger 230gr standard pressure loads as issued to me. They are reliable feeders and relatively accurate. Each of my carry guns has about 500 or so of these through them without malfunction. Whatever load you use, shoot enough of it to ensure the pistol is reliable with it. It wont be cheap but peace of mind rarely is.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:20:56 AM EST
Tagged to learn more. I'm new to .45 APC.




_______________________________________________



Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:23:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
I really dont buy into the one shot stop stats, too many variables involved. I doubt seriously that you're gonna find any really poor stoppers in any of the modern 45acp JHP loadings. I personally care the Ranger 230gr standard pressure loads as issued to me. They are reliable feeders and relatively accurate. Each of my carry guns has about 500 or so of these through them without malfunction. Whatever load you use, shoot enough of it to ensure the pistol is reliable with it. It wont be cheap but peace of mind rarely is.




Your right but look at the ballistics of the 230 gr at 50 yrds hmmm not enough power the 185+p is screaming
LOOK AT THE NUMBERS
Distance (yds) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.lbs.) Mid-Range Trajectory (in.)
Muzzle 880 396 -
50 846 366 1.5
100 816 340 6.1

396 ENERGY TRANSFER COMPARED TO 534

Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 50 100
Golden Saber™ 185 1140 1042 971

Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 50 100
Golden Saber™ 185 534 446 388

DO THE MATH
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:27:50 AM EST
By that same line of reasoning we'd all be carrying the 165gr +P loadings. There's more to the equation than simple energy.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:30:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
By that same line of reasoning we'd all be carrying the 165gr +P loadings. There's more to the equation than simple energy.



this is true the 185 was choosen do to the perfect formula of penetration expantion and energy transfer
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:32:02 AM EST
I have both 165gr. +P Golden Sabers and 165gr. +P Corbons on my G21; excellent combination of speed and power.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:37:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
I have both 165gr. +P Golden Sabers and 165gr. +P Corbons on my G21; excellent combination of speed and power.



Did you know that the Glock achives higher fps then othr guns do to the polygon barrel I have the same weapon with m-6
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:42:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 12:43:32 AM EST by KeltechSu16CA]

Originally Posted By KeltechSu16CA:

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
I have both 165gr. +P Golden Sabers and 165gr. +P Corbons on my G21; excellent combination of speed and power.



Did you know that the Glock achives higher fps then othr guns do to the polygon barrel I have the same weapon with m-6


40 S&W - This caliber has become extremely popular with law enforcement agencies due to the perceived deficiencies of the 9mm round. All manufacturers have at least 2 loadings of this caliber and it has served very well. The Remington 165 grain Golden Saber was used in 311 shootings and made 292 one shot stops for a 94% rating followed closely by the CCI 165 and 155 grain loadings and the Federal 155 grain Hydra-Shok bullet. These 3 loads made 93% one shot stops. Other manufacturers loads in the 90% range were the Federal 155 grain JHP and the CorBon 135 and 150 grain JHP bullets. Thirteen other loadings were evaluated with the poorest being the Winchester 180 grain FMJ that was involved in 134 encounters and made 95 (71%) one shot stops.

i dont see that in g saber 165 for 45 do you have a .40?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:53:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:56:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:



I had to say something
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 3:58:00 AM EST
None of the above.

Federal 230 grain HST.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:03:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By FedGunner:
None of the above.

Federal 230 grain HST.



+1 or 230gr Win Ranger Ts or Speer Gold Dots
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 5:45:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 5:46:31 AM EST by Karl_Withakay]
I'm suprised the referances to "one shot stops" hasn't ingited another war over the scientifically useless Evan Marshal one shot stop statistics.

It's sooooo tempting to want to give validity to those stats, but the underlying premis seems to be that given a large enough sample of data, the wildly uncontrolled varialbes will all cancel each other out, but anybody who knows anything about scientific or statistical analysis should know that won't work.

For one the samples aren't anywhere near large enough to make that kind of assumption. Also, while the variables are completely uncontrolled, they aren't completely random; some variables will follow a pattern that will skew the data. Say, hypothetically, the police department in a high crime area had the most shootings by officers of any dept in the country. The "unique" variables that affect those shootings (such as officer training/ skill, type of clothing typically worn in that climate, average bulk of the local population, etc) will carry greater weight than any "unique" variables that affect shootings by other depts because those shootings will account for a larger portion of the sample data.

Link Posted: 4/14/2006 6:42:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Karl_Withakay:
I'm suprised the referances to "one shot stops" hasn't ingited another war over the scientifically useless Evan Marshal one shot stop statistics.

It's sooooo tempting to want to give validity to those stats, but the underlying premis seems to be that given a large enough sample of data, the wildly uncontrolled varialbes will all cancel each other out, but anybody who knows anything about scientific or statistical analysis should know that won't work.

For one the samples aren't anywhere near large enough to make that kind of assumption. Also, while the variables are completely uncontrolled, they aren't completely random; some variables will follow a pattern that will skew the data. Say, hypothetically, the police department in a high crime area had the most shootings by officers of any dept in the country. The "unique" variables that affect those shootings (such as officer training/ skill, type of clothing typically worn in that climate, average bulk of the local population, etc) will carry greater weight than any "unique" variables that affect shootings by other depts because those shootings will account for a larger portion of the sample data.




This is true but also look at the balistics
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:21:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By KeltechSu16CA:

Originally Posted By Karl_Withakay:
I'm suprised the referances to "one shot stops" hasn't ingited another war over the scientifically useless Evan Marshal one shot stop statistics.

It's sooooo tempting to want to give validity to those stats, but the underlying premis seems to be that given a large enough sample of data, the wildly uncontrolled varialbes will all cancel each other out, but anybody who knows anything about scientific or statistical analysis should know that won't work.

For one the samples aren't anywhere near large enough to make that kind of assumption. Also, while the variables are completely uncontrolled, they aren't completely random; some variables will follow a pattern that will skew the data. Say, hypothetically, the police department in a high crime area had the most shootings by officers of any dept in the country. The "unique" variables that affect those shootings (such as officer training/ skill, type of clothing typically worn in that climate, average bulk of the local population, etc) will carry greater weight than any "unique" variables that affect shootings by other depts because those shootings will account for a larger portion of the sample data.




This is true but also look at the balistics



This is true, but one needs to look at what is actually acomplished by the ballistics. Energy is the ability to do work. At handgun velocities, the work that is effective is the work to drill a bullet sized hole deep into the target, and the work to expand the bullet to the maxium diameter that will keep the bullet intact and retain most of its mass. At handgun velocities, energy "dumped" into disrupting tissue with the temporary stretch cavity has not been shown to be an effective tool for incapacitating a subject.

Large diameter, deep holes (within the limit of how deep you can expect the target to actually be) are the most effective way of stopping a hostile target (this, of course can and has been endlessly debated). In the old days, you needed lighter JHP bullets (like the 185gr in .45) to be able to get decent expansion, but modern JHP designs allow the heavier bullets (like 230gr in .45) to expand the same as the lighter bullets, while usually penetrating deeper.

That being said, I love the Speer Gold Dots. I also like Winchester Ranger Bonded, Federal Tactical Bonded, and Golden Saber Bonded. For me, bonded bullets are where the state of the art is currently at. Who knows what will be the next innovation in bullet design?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 1:04:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Karl_Withakay:

Originally Posted By KeltechSu16CA:

Originally Posted By Karl_Withakay:
I'm suprised the referances to "one shot stops" hasn't ingited another war over the scientifically useless Evan Marshal one shot stop statistics.

It's sooooo tempting to want to give validity to those stats, but the underlying premis seems to be that given a large enough sample of data, the wildly uncontrolled varialbes will all cancel each other out, but anybody who knows anything about scientific or statistical analysis should know that won't work.

For one the samples aren't anywhere near large enough to make that kind of assumption. Also, while the variables are completely uncontrolled, they aren't completely random; some variables will follow a pattern that will skew the data. Say, hypothetically, the police department in a high crime area had the most shootings by officers of any dept in the country. The "unique" variables that affect those shootings (such as officer training/ skill, type of clothing typically worn in that climate, average bulk of the local population, etc) will carry greater weight than any "unique" variables that affect shootings by other depts because those shootings will account for a larger portion of the sample data.




This is true but also look at the balistics



This is true, but one needs to look at what is actually acomplished by the ballistics. Energy is the ability to do work. At handgun velocities, the work that is effective is the work to drill a bullet sized hole deep into the target, and the work to expand the bullet to the maxium diameter that will keep the bullet intact and retain most of its mass. At handgun velocities, energy "dumped" into disrupting tissue with the temporary stretch cavity has not been shown to be an effective tool for incapacitating a subject.

Large diameter, deep holes (within the limit of how deep you can expect the target to actually be) are the most effective way of stopping a hostile target (this, of course can and has been endlessly debated). In the old days, you needed lighter JHP bullets (like the 185gr in .45) to be able to get decent expansion, but modern JHP designs allow the heavier bullets (like 230gr in .45) to expand the same as the lighter bullets, while usually penetrating deeper.

That being said, I love the Speer Gold Dots. I also like Winchester Ranger Bonded, Federal Tactical Bonded, and Golden Saber Bonded. For me, bonded bullets are where the state of the art is currently at. Who knows what will be the next innovation in bullet design?




But what if your target is far away say 50 yards then what? I like light fast moving bullets
ok how about this if energy is nothing then why does a 55gr .223 blow huge wholes into things? Because energy transfer and fragmentation creates a huge permanent cavity

this goes back to the light vs heavy bullet theory
don’t get me wrong I like heavy bullets out to 25 yards but after that……
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 8:49:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 8:49:44 PM EST by Karl_Withakay]

Originally Posted By KeltechSu16CA:

But what if your target is far away say 50 yards then what? I like light fast moving bullets
ok how about this if energy is nothing then why does a 55gr .223 blow huge wholes into things? Because energy transfer and fragmentation creates a huge permanent cavity

this goes back to the light vs heavy bullet theory
don’t get me wrong I like heavy bullets out to 25 yards but after that……



The heavier bullets do retain velocity (and energy) better at distance that light bullets (that's why the 62gr M855 is a longer reaching round than the higher velocity 55gr M193 in 5.56X45mm), but generally light and fast does have the advantage of flatter trajectory. Of course, typical combat distance for a handgun is something like 7 yards, where just about everything shoots flat. I would guess that many, if not most, shooters would be pressed to be particularly effective beyond 25 yds with a handgun in true combat conditions. (of course, it might be correct to say the MOST shooters are not particularly good shots, it doesn't mean there aren't a lot of good shots.)

I never said energy was nothing; I said that at handgun velocities, energy "dumped" into disrupting tissue with the temporary stretch cavity has not been shown to be an effective tool for incapacitating a subject. At handgun velocities, human tissue stretches and returns to normal shape without wounding, the stretch cavity is temporary, only the bullet hole is permanent. When we start talking about high velocity rifle bullets, we're talking about a whole different ball game. At higher rifle velocities, the hydrostatic shock actually tears and damages tissue.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 7:28:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Karl_Withakay:

Originally Posted By KeltechSu16CA:

But what if your target is far away say 50 yards then what? I like light fast moving bullets
ok how about this if energy is nothing then why does a 55gr .223 blow huge wholes into things? Because energy transfer and fragmentation creates a huge permanent cavity

this goes back to the light vs heavy bullet theory
don’t get me wrong I like heavy bullets out to 25 yards but after that……



The heavier bullets do retain velocity (and energy) better at distance that light bullets (that's why the 62gr M855 is a longer reaching round than the higher velocity 55gr M193 in 5.56X45mm), but generally light and fast does have the advantage of flatter trajectory. Of course, typical combat distance for a handgun is something like 7 yards, where just about everything shoots flat. I would guess that many, if not most, shooters would be pressed to be particularly effective beyond 25 yds with a handgun in true combat conditions. (of course, it might be correct to say the MOST shooters are not particularly good shots, it doesn't mean there aren't a lot of good shots.)

I never said energy was nothing; I said that at handgun velocities, energy "dumped" into disrupting tissue with the temporary stretch cavity has not been shown to be an effective tool for incapacitating a subject. At handgun velocities, human tissue stretches and returns to normal shape without wounding, the stretch cavity is temporary, only the bullet hole is permanent. When we start talking about high velocity rifle bullets, we're talking about a whole different ball game. At higher rifle velocities, the hydrostatic shock actually tears and damages tissue.




Alot of people are going to say stupid things but I tested the RBCD ammo and it blew a huge permenant hole in the meat
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 3:57:19 PM EST
Please stop feeding this Person and his magic bullets
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:28:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By mrassII:
Please stop feeding this Person and his magic bullets




I am not your baby daddy go away
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:48:47 PM EST
I use Corbon 230gr +P. 1050 fps.
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 5:51:11 PM EST
clean_cut Redux?
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:00:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By mrassII:
Please stop feeding this Person and his magic bullets



+1001
Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:44:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By 20iner:
I use Corbon 230gr +P. 1050 fps.



Now that would do some damage a 230gr 1050 fps ouch

Link Posted: 4/16/2006 6:46:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By HEADACHE:

Originally Posted By mrassII:
Please stop feeding this Person and his magic bullets



+1001





you think you have a headache now

Link Posted: 4/17/2006 6:51:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2006 3:39:14 PM EST by mrassII]
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 9:12:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By mrassII:
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
won­der why he has not been banned yet.

Keltech do you know this guy
I teach brasilian jiujitsu and kickboxing love hip hop and rock love going out to clubs Vegas Hollywood. I love chilling with good friend and just having fun.
Male
29 years old
Bellflower, CALIFORNIA
United States
img208.imageshack.us/img208/6279/354946138l6ew.jpg

img464.imageshack.us/img464/4527/484142635l8xv.jpg





And you posting pictures of me with out sanction is highly verboten.

Why are you so intent in fulfilling my demise?
Is it something I did?
Do you not have something to occupy your time?

I dont want to date do you understand?
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 12:03:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By KeltechSu16CA:

Originally Posted By mrassII:
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
won­der why he has not been banned yet.

Keltech do you know this guy
I teach brasilian jiujitsu and kickboxing love hip hop and rock love going out to clubs Vegas Hollywood. I love chilling with good friend and just having fun.
Male
29 years old
Bellflower, CALIFORNIA
United States
img208.imageshack.us/img208/6279/354946138l6ew.jpg</a>

img464.imageshack.us/img464/4527/484142635l8xv.jpg</a>





And you posting pictures of me with out sanction is highly verboten.

Why are you so intent in fulfilling my demise?
Is it something I did?
Do you not have something to occupy your time?

I dont want to date do you understand?





No Option for Federal HST 230 grain +p
Link Posted: 4/17/2006 3:39:47 PM EST
Keltech
Appoligy accepted
I removed my posts about you
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