newbie phobia: I was wondering if we train with ear protection and then when it comes to real life situation, am I going to flinch because now I am not wearing ear protection?

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but how do you pyschologically prepare for that?

and how are the soliders in combat situation handle that? are they all being made deaf?

You won't hear a thing in a real shooting.  Can't speak for Combat Vets, but I fired a shot out front of my house out of my 14.5 inch M4, and the noise didn't even phase me.  

Train with your ear protection, and don't even worry about the real deal.

In a combat situation adrenaline takes over and you basicaly (from my experiences) hear nothing  but, every combat vet I know has suffered 'some' hearing loss, myself included.

Quoted: You won't hear a thing in a real shooting.  Can't speak for Combat Vets, but I fired a shot out front of my house out of my 14.5 inch M4, and the noise didn't even phase me.   Train with your ear protection, and don't even worry about the real deal.

I was thinking firing inside the house, eg self defense situation

Go to an indoor range, and give it a shot if they're okay with it.  I've done this both inside and out and I was actually surprised that the report wasn't louder.  It's worth getting the experience.

I still stand by my post.  If you have to shoot someone in your house...  The loudness will be the last thing on your mind.

Unless you're running an 11.5" AR or somthing that would make your freakin ears bleed!!

I beleive it is called auditory exclusion.  If you are in a situation where you are fighting for your life and a shot is fired you will not be phased by the sound.  I can speak from experience.

I'm sure u wont flinch from noise. Just from the adrenaline of having a deer jump up 5yds away or a grouse flushing the same way in heavily wooded area where the sound is sorta trapped I  never hear the report of the rifle/shotgun. You may have your ears ringing afterwards though.  I'm sure in a self defense situation your adrenaline is cranked up way higher so you'd be even less likely to flinch from the sound.

+1 to what everyone else has said.

or you can run around with peltors all the time and folks will think your a Star Wars nerd portraying Lando's Chief of Communications

Quoted: You won't hear a thing in a real shooting.

I disagree......my last one shocked me how loud it was. Under a big awning at a gas station. I didn't expect it to be so loud.

Now, for round count, that is another issue. It just seems like the auditory exclusion kicks in. I couldn't tell you how many times I was shot at, but I could tell you how many I put down range. Not from noise, but from sight picture and good aiming.

The previous times the gun wasn't nearly as loud.

I have never suffered any ringing, in fact, the only real issue was everything was louder than normal. Nothing like the sound of the bad guy's gun dropping. It seemed EXTREMELY loud!!!

So, gunshot was less, yet everything else was a lil' louder.

Quoted: Quoted: You won't hear a thing in a real shooting. I disagree......my last one shocked me how loud it was. Under a big awning at a gas station. I didn't expect it to be so loud.

Maybe I just don't remember hearing it!  I can't remember hearing the brass bounce off the deck either...    I couldn't find the empty at first.

A few days later I found it in the garage. (I often keep the garage door slightly open)

Quoted: Quoted: You won't hear a thing in a real shooting. I disagree......my last one shocked me how loud it was. Under a big awning at a gas station. I didn't expect it to be so loud. Now, for round count, that is another issue. It just seems like the auditory exclusion kicks in. I couldn't tell you how many times I was shot at, but I could tell you how many I put down range. Not from noise, but from sight picture and good aiming. The previous times the gun wasn't nearly as loud. I have never suffered any ringing, in fact, the only real issue was everything was louder than normal. Nothing like the sound of the bad guy's gun dropping. It seemed EXTREMELY loud!!! So, gunshot was less, yet everything else was a lil' louder.

Ok...let's hear the story!

Which one??

Last one was a group of home invasion robbery suspects.....

Stop one and I didn't think he was armed. After playing the game for a lil' while, he figures it is time to run (lots of sirens was his main motivator).

Hops up and pulls the gun. Chase is on waiting to see if he needs to get popped. He is getting ready to go for the doors to the gas station, so I slow and begin to take a knee to shoot the guy. He changed his mind. Starts running back towards me at a slight angle and figures he is going to take me out.

That didn't happen. It was more of a run and shoot type stuff.....good opportunity for me to close the gap and I had a great back frop.

After he was hit by my rounds, he screamed like a lil' girl, dropped the gun, and the mag came flying out. The sound of my weapon was extremely loud. I could hear the brass hitting the pavement. His gun dropping was a sound I won't forget (coupled with his girly scream ;))

The gun he had was the homeowner's. Had the homeowner not been such a puss, all three suspects would have been shot in his house.....instead they kicked his butt, stole all his guns, and decided to act tough.

After being shot, he ran, got hit by a car, ran some more, and then wanted to fight. Cocaine is such a great drug...........

Other 2 watched their buddy get shot and decided to just run. Left all the guns behind.

Quoted: Quoted: You won't hear a thing in a real shooting. I disagree......my last one shocked me how loud it was. Under a big awning at a gas station. I didn't expect it to be so loud. Now, for round count, that is another issue. It just seems like the auditory exclusion kicks in. I couldn't tell you how many times I was shot at, but I could tell you how many I put down range. Not from noise, but from sight picture and good aiming. The previous times the gun wasn't nearly as loud. I have never suffered any ringing, in fact, the only real issue was everything was louder than normal. Nothing like the sound of the bad guy's gun dropping. It seemed EXTREMELY loud!!! So, gunshot was less, yet everything else was a lil' louder.

I strongly suggest anybody with questions regarding "auditory exclusion" read Dave Grossmans book On Combat. An entire chapter is devoted to the phenomenon of auditory exclusion and it's effects. IIRC, of officers surveyed that were involved in shootings, approximately %75 experienced auditory exclusion.

Auditory exclusion is a remarkable instance where, somehow, it is believed the inner ear "expects" the loud noise and blocks it. Amazingly though, many of the officers questioned did not hear their own gunshots, but accurately described the tinkling of the expended brass hitting the ground.

Still a mystery, but it's something you should be aware of.

I heard a muffled pop and that was from a 357mag, don't worry about it

Quoted: I heard a muffled pop and that was from a 357mag, don't worry about it

I heard the same thing just as a nasty stinging from a .45acp started to kick in.  

The defense class I took suggested that a few of the final shots during the range time were done without hearing protection to know what to expect. Honestly, it doesn't bother me. Yesterday I was having trouble with one of the ear plugs, so I guess I put it in my poclet during the ceasefire. When we started up again I only noticed it being slghtly louder than normal (in an enclosed concrete building).

I had no idea I was gonna pop off a round in my garage, but afterwards my ears were fine. I had bigger issues to worry about after the round went off.

Just thank god that I dont have to worry about my hearing, cuz I'm DEAF !

I just thank god I can turn off my hearing aid when I dont need to hear those crappy noise everyday .!

for the guns, I just go *mmwahahehheahhehah* at the gun range and those guys were looking at me ...

I had a friend ND a Beretta Tomcat in a .25 ACP in a parking lot.  I wasn't expecting it and my ear (directed toward the shot) was ringing for the rest of the day.

Auditory exclusion works when you are in a high-stress situation and you are aware that you are about to pull the trigger.  If you calmly and deliberately shoot your gun at the range under less than SHTF circumstances it will not likely kick in.  

Quoted: The defense class I took suggested that a few of the final shots during the range time were done without hearing protection to know what to expect. Honestly, it doesn't bother me. Yesterday I was having trouble with one of the ear plugs, so I guess I put it in my poclet during the ceasefire. When we started up again I only noticed it being slghtly louder than normal (in an enclosed concrete building).

I have heard of this too.  Somewhere, somehow, somebody dropped their firearm, thinking it had exploded, because they never fired a round without hearing protection.

A .45ACP or a .38SPL can be extremely loud in a canyon, a building, or in a car.  It is one less thing to worry about if you know how loud it can be.

Quoted: The defense class I took suggested that a few of the final shots during the range time were done without hearing protection to know what to expect.

We did this too in Advanced hand gun.  It was optional.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You won't hear a thing in a real shooting. I disagree......my last one shocked me how loud it was. Under a big awning at a gas station. I didn't expect it to be so loud. Now, for round count, that is another issue. It just seems like the auditory exclusion kicks in. I couldn't tell you how many times I was shot at, but I could tell you how many I put down range. Not from noise, but from sight picture and good aiming. The previous times the gun wasn't nearly as loud. I have never suffered any ringing, in fact, the only real issue was everything was louder than normal. Nothing like the sound of the bad guy's gun dropping. It seemed EXTREMELY loud!!! So, gunshot was less, yet everything else was a lil' louder. I strongly suggest anybody with questions regarding "auditory exclusion" read Dave Grossmans book On Combat. An entire chapter is devoted to the phenomenon of auditory exclusion and it's effects. IIRC, of officers surveyed that were involved in shootings, approximately %75 experienced auditory exclusion. Auditory exclusion is a remarkable instance where, somehow, it is believed the inner ear "expects" the loud noise and blocks it. Amazingly though, many of the officers questioned did not hear their own gunshots, but accurately described the tinkling of the expended brass hitting the ground. Still a mystery, but it's something you should be aware of.

Exactly.  Grossman describes multiple cases of officers in a firefight retreating or trying to clear a malfunction because they thought their weapons weren't functioning properly.  Auditory exclusion can cause a gunshot to sound like a "popgun."  If you carry a weapon and aren't familiar with the works of Grossman, you're wrong.

This happens to me when I hunt.  I've never heard a round I fired at a deer.

Interestingly, if you watch some of the testimony from ATF after the Waco incident, one of the senior officers on the scene said he knew they were outgunned because the ATF firearms sounded "like popguns."  Exact quote.  That was long before Grossman had identified the phenomenon.  The human mind is an amazing thing.

Auditory exclusion works.  Both the deer and the elk I shot in Colorado were done without ear protection, with plenty of time to line up the shot, and I didn't hear a thing-out of my .300 Win Mag.  But I distinctly remember hearing the "whump" as the round hit the critter (Both shots were under 30 yds).  Weird phenomenon.

As for "practicing" by cranking off a couple of rounds sans hearing protection, NO THANKS.  My hearing is bad enough.

I had a SHTF in 03. My friend was glued flat on the ground and said it was deafening although he recalls every expletive I was shouting at the POS whild firing at him. I didn't recall most of what I said, but I heard the shots ring out and they were not extremely loud to me. All of this took place outside though.

I've been shot at inside a building.  First guy was using a .38, and I didn't even believe it was real.  It was so quiet I thought it was a starter gun... at least untill I saw the rounds impacting around me.  The second was a 9mm.  Again it sounded like a cap gun it was so quiet. Both shooters were within 15-20 feet of me.  Afterwards there was so much going on I couldn't even tell you if my ears were ringing.  

New rule: If you start a story about being in some SHTF, you have to finish it. With details. Beginning, middle, end.

Sorry, pulpsmack and sixpack. Thems the rules. So on with it.

Quoted: New rule: If you start a story about being in some SHTF, you have to finish it. With details. Beginning, middle, end. Sorry, pulpsmack and sixpack. Thems the rules. So on with it.

Pulpsmack has shared his story in the past, you might find it if you do a search.

I think the jist of it is some punk pulled a glock to rob him and he started shooting back.

Quoted: New rule: If you start a story about being in some SHTF, you have to finish it. With details. Beginning, middle, end. Sorry, pulpsmack and sixpack. Thems the rules. So on with it.

Those men have the right not to share a story if they don't want to. This is their life, not yours. Just sit back say thank you when they offer part or all of their experience to us who have not BTDT.

That is, IMO, quite rude.

Quoted: Quoted: New rule: If you start a story about being in some SHTF, you have to finish it. With details. Beginning, middle, end. Sorry, pulpsmack and sixpack. Thems the rules. So on with it. Those men have the right not to share a story if they don't want to. This is their life, not yours. Just sit back say thank you when they offer part or all of their experience to us who have not BTDT. That is, IMO, quite rude.

See the smiley face at the end of my post? That means it was in good humor. It wasn't a demand.

Here's my food for thought:

When hunting Antelope, I take plugs with me & insert them before the shot.  The reason is, I set up on the game at distance.  As I take my time, I think about the noise and I have missed antelope in the past when not using plugs because I was anticipating the report rather than concentrating on the shot itself.  When I have plugs in, I'm focused on the shot & am much more accurate.

On deer & elk I leave the plugs out.  Unless I'm stalking the game from a distance and have time to set up for the shot.  When I spot a deer/elk suddenly, instinct takes over and I focus on the prey.  When a snap shot is made, whereas time is of importance before the prey gets away- I never hear the report of my 30-06.  After the shot, I can hear the echo of the report returning from long distances away.  But I can never remember an audible report when the shot broke.

When a Rottweiler charged me in my back yard at a beginning distance of 20 yards, I dumped 4 rounds of 40S&W from my Glock 22 into it's head @ a distance of 3-5'. (Obviously w/ no hearing protection)  I didn't hear the shots nor could I discern how many rounds I fired until I checked the magazine and collected the spent brass.

The loudest firearm discharges I've ever witnessed were NDs.  40 S&W, 357 & 12 gauge.  (No, not all mine)  This is the part that really surprises me but would confirm what others have noted in this thread, if you're in "Kill or be killed" mode- you won't hear it. But when you're truthfully not engaged or expecting to shoot or to have a shot occur near you- it's louder than hell.

My conclusion is:

You shoot under stress w/ adrenaline.  You won't hear the report.

You shoot anticipating the report. It will be loud as you are concentrating on the report, not the shot.

You have a weapon go off near you on accident or if someone is firing at you- it'll be loud.

Somewhat hypothetical on my part so, "YMMV".  I practice w/ plugs in and expect that when the time comes, the noise of the report will pass unnoticed.  However, I do believe that while the shots may not register as being "heard", the accumulated damage will mount whether firing under stress or not.  Ears can begin to ring hours, even days after such an event.

Sly

Quoted: The loudest firearm discharges I've ever witnessed were NDs.  40 S&W, 357 & 12 gauge.  (No, not all mine)  This is the part that really surprises me but would confirm what others have noted in this thread, if you're in "Kill or be killed" mode- you won't hear it. But when you're truthfully not engaged or expecting to shoot or to have a shot occur near you- it's louder than hell. Sly

The loudest sounds in the world are a bang when you're expecting a click and a click when you're expecting a bang.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: New rule: If you start a story about being in some SHTF, you have to finish it. With details. Beginning, middle, end. Sorry, pulpsmack and sixpack. Thems the rules. So on with it. Those men have the right not to share a story if they don't want to. This is their life, not yours. Just sit back say thank you when they offer part or all of their experience to us who have not BTDT. That is, IMO, quite rude. See the smiley face at the end of my post? That means it was in good humor. It wasn't a demand.

My humor detector was broke this morning. I'm sorry. I've absolutely had enough of the toadies coming into each of the Carry Issues forums I frequent and begging to get their kicks off others events.

I apologize.

It's all in good natured curiosity and I do appreciate the defense.

I don't get sick telling the story but it's a bitch to type.

bare bones: An overconfident guy tried to rob me at gunpoint and it didn't work out the way he planned. I saw what he was up to and had my weapon dead on him before he even turned to face us w his brandished pistol. I had the opportunity to kill him where he stood but he saw I had the jump on him and it was over he ran off as expected, and dumped his mag on us (not expected). Losing my opportunity for a good aimed shot I returned fire (triple tap, side step to cover, one aimed shot) and I saved the rest because my stupid ass couldn't be bothered that day to fetch the extra mag. My friend was shot twice (one in each leg) but came through just fine (able to walk on the legs & all at the time) Many things were learned that night... namely NEVER go w/out your spare and if you can put a bullet in the back of a motherfucker's head who brandished a pistol, damn the consequences: DO IT.

When shooting my past deer rifle (.270 win) I noticed no deafness afterwards.  WHen shooting my pistol for 3 shots (9mm) without hearing protection, I had a headache and ears ringing for a couple of hours.

From the FWIW category...

Three years ago my Dad took a doe with a new, short barreled 30-06. He said that he didn't hear the shot, but immediately after he saw the doe drop, he noticed a "buzzing" in his ear. by the time he walked up to the doe (who dropped like she was hit by a bag of hammers, BTW), he noticed that everything seemed very, very quiet. Later that night, he had a hard time understanding speech at a conversational level.

He was seen by an ENT doc two days later: bilateral eardrum ruptures. The ENT doc told him that "younger ears" probably would've been more resilient. Dad was ~65 years old at the time.

FWIW.

Doesn't matter to me...  I saw this guy last week and STILL can't hear...  

Shooting intentionally without hearing protection is self destructive and unnecessary (self defense excluded, better to trade a little hearing and still be alive). With electronic hearing protection what it is today there is no reason not to protect the ears.  Even the valved ear plugs offer some protection.

Talk to a war vet, talk to an old-timer, talk to a doctor, talk to an old duck hunter...   Hell, ask Ted Nugent, he's deaf as they come.  Anyone who has been around firearms for a long time will give you the straight dope.  Ever hear of the NRA salute?

The report of a firearm runs 140-160 decibels.  Any exposure to sounds over 120 db will cause some amount of hearing loss, this is well documented.  Do the research and please protect your hearing.

 I fired a 9mm Sig 226 without my right plug in once, at the range.  My ear rang the rest of the day and I noticed IMMEDIATELY.
 If you're young and dump a mag in really, really stressful situation then you are going to be okay but don't do it on a regular basis.

so the consenses are don't do it too much or you'll go deaf. and during high stress auditory exclusion kicks in...

back to my original 2nd part question: "how are the soliders fight for us handle this?"

do they practice everyday? with or without ear protections? does the government compensate these people for hearing damage?

just wanted to know since I've never been in the military.

I've never been in a firefight (thank God) but I have done a bit of hunting (just a little ) and can tell you that when the event takes place, you won't even hear the sound. I remember one time when I was about 14 or so, I emptied an entire 30-30 lever action on an entire herd of deer 300 yards away in the hopes of actually hitting the lead deer. I didn't realize I emptied the gun, and the excitement of the hunt took over, gun was empty and I never heard a shot.

Of course, I don't empty an entire gun any more!

Quoted: When a Rottweiler charged me in my back yard at a beginning distance of 20 yards, I dumped 4 rounds of 40S&W from my Glock 22 into it's head @ a distance of 3-5'. (Obviously w/ no hearing protection)  I didn't hear the shots nor could I discern how many rounds I fired until I checked the magazine and collected the spent brass.

You shot a Rott?

A pitbull charging, I could understand.

Quoted: so the consenses are don't do it too much or you'll go deaf. and during high stress auditory exclusion kicks in... back to my original 2nd part question: "how are the soliders fight for us handle this?" do they practice everyday? with or without ear protections? does the government compensate these people for hearing damage? just wanted to know since I've never been in the military.

A lot of soldiers use electronic hearing protection like sordin supreme pros, peltors etc.. the others use the reversable browning type of plastic ear plugs.

Blackops_1.

Most everyone I knew left one earplug in, the one on the side of your  weapon and didnt put one in the other ear.  Cuts down on the noise alot but you can still hear fine.  As long as you arnt in the cuncussion blast of the gun the sound usually doesnt effect hearing too much ive noticed, but if they are shooting from behind you its going to hurt.

After reading this thread I went out to play with some of my pistols, I can shoot all of them confortably (.22, .9mm and .45acp)  The only one I had a small problem with was the .22 cause its more a POP then a boom.  Shotguns are like nothing, just low rumbles.


Go out shooting if you havent already, put 1 earplug in the right side, your finger in the other.  take one shot, remove finger  halfway, take another shot then remove finger all the way.  you should be able to fire your weapon without the 2nd earplug once you got that down.

Quoted: You won't hear a thing in a real shooting.  Can't speak for Combat Vets, but I fired a shot out front of my house out of my 14.5 inch M4, and the noise didn't even phase me.   Train with your ear protection, and don't even worry about the real deal.

+1

when the SHTF, and your addrenaline is moving and the bullets are flying, you wont even notice the "bang"--stay safe, shoot straight, stay alive: thats all that matters

Whenever I buy a new gun I fire several shots open ear so i get an idea of what to expect. I shot a .40 out of a car once(legally) and it wasnt too bad at all.

height=8

Quoted: New rule: If you start a story about being in some SHTF, you have to finish it. With details. Beginning, middle, end. Sorry, pulpsmack and sixpack. Thems the rules. So on with it. hort(er)... I was doing security in a bar in the ghetto.  I went after a guy who ran in and jumped over the bar.  He started shooting randomly, and his buddy came in and started shooting at me.  I decided not to continue my initial course of action.  They grabbed purses and loot from the till and ran out.  Since I was in a bar none of us were packing.  Seems like bars get robbed here more than other places since the state went shall issue.

Quoted: It's all in good natured curiosity and I do appreciate the defense. I don't get sick telling the story but it's a bitch to type.

"copy and paste", save in "notepad"--relist when neccessary

Hmm I thought I replied to this thread but I guess it was one w/ a similar question.  I can personally say that the only non-protected firing I've done was once, outside, w/ 8 rounds of .45 loudness from my 1911.  I just wanted to see how loud it was.

My ears rang for about 15-20 minutes afterwards.  Crazy.  I watch shows of troops in combat and wonder how any of them can hear anything.  Do they wear any protection?

Had to discharge a .40 indoors.  Never Heard it.

First thing I noticed was the smell.   I didn't expect the gunpowder smell to be the only sensory experience.

In dreams of the incident later it was the smell that was 100% real in the dream.

Still love the smell of gunpowder, gun oil, the marina, and the pits at the race.   Mmmm

I fired my weapon in Iraq, I didn't remember hearing my gun fire. I do remember the RPG, they sound like a dumpster door slamming shut.