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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/21/2006 9:15:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 11:57:02 AM EDT by _DR]
Armalite has announced they will be marketing a pistol based on the Turkish made Sarsilmaz-produced "Kilinc" (Sword) 9mm pistol. I did some research on this pistol and found that it basically a clone of the outstanding CZ-75B pistol which I can buy new, locally for around $400-$500

Now please tell me why I should be interested in buying an Armalite-badged imported Turkish made CZ-75B clone when I could purchase the original CZ item for a reasonable price. How many of you think the pricing will be less than CZ's?

Add to that the fact that Turkey cost us millions of dollars when they refused to let us use their country as a launching point for our forces in OIF as they had previously agreed, forcing our troop ships to travel through the Suez canal and around the Arabian peninsula because their parliament decided we were not their buddies anymore.

Frankly I would have expected more from Armalite, like manufacturing a pistol here, by Americans in the US, alongside their rifles. Or maybe I just don't get it.



The Sarsilmaz-produced "Kilinc"


The Original


Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:24:13 AM EDT
I'd wager that there is some hope that brand loyalty will play a part in the purchase decision.

Other than that, I'm not sure what the motives might be.

However, I will probably buy one or two to stash away. They may end up being kinda rare at some point.

Armalite marked pistols...
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 9:27:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 9:28:06 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I'd wager that there is some hope that brand loyalty will play a part in the purchase decision.

Other than that, I'm not sure what the motives might be.

However, I will probably buy one or two to stash away. They may end up being kinda rare at some point.

Armalite marked pistols...



OK. Possible Collector's item, that's a good valid reason I hadn't really considered.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:10:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Frankly I would have expected more from Armalite, like manufacturing a pistol here, by Americans in the US, alongside their rifles. Or maybe I just don't get it.



Like Springfield Armory and the XD?
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:18:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 10:34:24 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By VTwin60:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Frankly I would have expected more from Armalite, like manufacturing a pistol here, by Americans in the US, alongside their rifles. Or maybe I just don't get it.



Like Springfield Armory and the XD?



Well as far as I know, Croatia has been very friendly to the US, but the difference is that the HS2000 was it's own design. The Kilinc is a clone of a CZ design, so it's not quite the same, IMO.
Springfield basically has continued to make the HS2000 available under a different name.

Armalite will be bringing us yet another clone of something we already have, the CZ75.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:23:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 10:25:43 AM EDT by VTwin60]
Yes that is true, I was thinking more along the lines of Croatian built weapons are probably on the same level of refinement of the Turks and their CZ clone. I could be wrong.

I am curious as to the asking price as the CZ's are already fairly cheap and easily available, also nothing beats good old "white" chrome for a finish.......
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 10:31:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 12:17:17 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
Yes that is true, I was thinking more along the lines of Croatian built weapons are probably on the same level of refinement of the Turks and their CZ clone. I could be wrong.

I am curious as to the asking price as the CZ's are already fairly cheap and easily available, also nothing beats good old "white" chrome for a finish.......



I am not doubting that Sarsilmaz is capable of producing a fine weapon, they have a very good reputation.

Just questioning the desirability of purchasing a rebadged clone of a weapon that is already available in it's original form to us right now. To each his own, but that just doesn't add up to me.

I suppose for every gun, there is a buyer.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 12:49:29 PM EDT
Looks identical to the EAA/Tangfolio Witness.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 4:07:25 PM EDT
Maybe. Let's see street prices first.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:03:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I'd wager that there is some hope that brand loyalty will play a part in the purchase decision.

Other than that, I'm not sure what the motives might be.

However, I will probably buy one or two to stash away. They may end up being kinda rare at some point.

Armalite marked pistols...



OK. Possible Collector's item, that's a good valid reason I hadn't really considered.




INDEED ! They could be the "HighPoint" of a Collection!




Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:14:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 6:15:08 PM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
INDEED ! They could be the "HighPoint" of a Collection!





An AK-nut looking down their nose at ANY gun is simply hysterical...........
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 6:19:53 PM EDT
The CZ75's patents are expired. I don't really see how it's any different than buying a SA or Kimber 1911.

That said, CZ has a long time reputation for making quality firearms that Sarsilmaz doesn't. I had never even heard of them before SHOT 06.

In any case, I'm not buying one.
Link Posted: 2/21/2006 11:21:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2006 11:22:09 PM EDT by Variablebinary]

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Looks identical to the EAA/Tangfolio Witness.



That's because it is a Tangfolio clone.

CZ failed to patent some designs and they were copied by western companies. The Armalite guns are copies of an imitation

Besides the current generation of CZ guns are better than the classic designs, so I'd rather give CZ my money
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:22:33 AM EDT
Armalite is probably having them built in Turkey because the 180B taught them they aren't capable of making a good gun from scratch here in the states.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:55:29 AM EDT
That's a Tanfoglio, components made in Italy and assembled in many different places like Israel (Jericho, Baby Desert Eagle) and now Turkey. Tanfoglio pistols are sold by EAA in the US. Massimo puts different cuts and profiles on the slide and frame to make them look a bit different to other customers' pistols. Tanfoglio have an ultr-modern factory pouring out components for anyone, much like Ruger with their investment casting plant and S&W with their CNC machines. Tanfoglio are IMPROVED CZ75s, damned good guns with better triggers than a CZ75 and made of much harder steel with much better finishes.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 6:19:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
Tanfoglio are IMPROVED CZ75s, damned good guns with better triggers than a CZ75 and made of much harder steel with much better finishes.



You make it sound like CZ's are made of pot-metal. The P-01 made it though NATO trials, I do not think there is any defeciany in the choice of metals.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:14:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 7:24:32 AM EDT by _DR]
In light of all this information it will be interesting to see how Armalite markets the pistol the American public.

At least Springfield Armory markets their XD as "Made in Croatia". It's even rollmarked on the top of the slide.

I'll wager the AR-25 will NOT have "Made in Turkiye" prominently rollmarked on the frame as does the Kilinc.



Of course, I have been wrong before.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:16:50 AM EDT
I'd go CZ.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:27:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 7:28:38 AM EDT by yekimak]
Didn't Springfield import cz copies for a while a few years back?

Just ain't up my alley or else I would own a witness or CZ already. I was hoping for more from Armalite, but they continue to disappoint when it comes to anything but their AR15/AR10's. ....and the AR50's....and the AR30's......

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:28:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 7:28:39 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By _DR:
In light of all this information it will be interesting to see how Armalite markets the pistol the American public.

At least Springfield Armory markets their XD as "Made in Croatia". It's even rollmarked on the top of the slide.

I'll wager the AR-25 will NOT have "Made in Turkiye" prominently rollmarked on the frame as does the Kilinc.

i1.tinypic.com/oa9gn9.jpg

Of course, I have been wrong before.



It will have Made in Turkey on it, if it is imported.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:35:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 7:35:24 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By _DR:
In light of all this information it will be interesting to see how Armalite markets the pistol the American public.

At least Springfield Armory markets their XD as "Made in Croatia". It's even rollmarked on the top of the slide.

I'll wager the AR-25 will NOT have "Made in Turkiye" prominently rollmarked on the frame as does the Kilinc.

i1.tinypic.com/oa9gn9.jpg

Of course, I have been wrong before.



It will have Made in Turkey on it, if it is imported.



Oh, a legal requirement. OK.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:36:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 8:32:55 AM EDT by _DR]
On the other hand, I suppose you can't get something like this from CZ...

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:21:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I'd wager that there is some hope that brand loyalty will play a part in the purchase decision.

Other than that, I'm not sure what the motives might be.

However, I will probably buy one or two to stash away. They may end up being kinda rare at some point.

Armalite marked pistols...



OK. Possible Collector's item, that's a good valid reason I hadn't really considered.




INDEED ! They could be the "HighPoint" of a Collection!






You owe me a new keyboard and a can of soda!!!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:23:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Looks identical to the EAA/Tangfolio Witness.



That's because it is a Tangfolio clone.

CZ failed to patent some designs and they were copied by western companies. The Armalite guns are copies of an imitation

Besides the current generation of CZ guns are better than the classic designs, so I'd rather give CZ my money



Remember, the CZ 75 was designed back in the days of Gold Ol' Russian Communism, Tolerance and Love of Intellectual Property....there probably WASN'T a patent.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:02:03 AM EDT
it would have to be price competitive. i can buy CZ-75Bs all day long for $425 out the door. why would i want to buy a copy for more money.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:27:08 PM EDT
It doesn't trip my trigger this CZ clone. Our market is becoming clone happy the last few years. Stick with the real deal.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:38:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
Tanfoglio are IMPROVED CZ75s, damned good guns with better triggers than a CZ75 and made of much harder steel with much better finishes.



I disagree ... twice.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:30:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 10:23:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:
On the other hand, I suppose you can't get something like this from CZ...

i1.tinypic.com/oa9n5c.jpg



OH my eye's,my eye's.
Too much bling bling for me....but Im not into pimp guns.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 7:12:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blankwaffe98:

Originally Posted By _DR:
On the other hand, I suppose you can't get something like this from CZ...

i1.tinypic.com/oa9n5c.jpg



OH my eye's,my eye's.
Too much bling bling for me....but Im not into pimp guns.





Me neither. But I think they are into that sort of thing in that part of the world (Turkey).
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 8:34:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 8:35:09 AM EDT by Bob1984]
Get the Glock Get both ? Seriously, I'd have to go with getting a CZ75 myself if I wanted one. Or a High Power. Besides, has anybody heard any actual range reports or anything close to a review (gun rags don't count) on these pistols ? For all we know, they could be complete crap. Btw, Sarsilmaz pirated some music from the video game Rogue Spear (the sequel to Rainbow Six) for their website. Did anybody else catch that ?
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:08:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/23/2006 9:16:20 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
Get the Glock Get both ? Seriously, I'd have to go with getting a CZ75 myself if I wanted one. Or a High Power. Besides, has anybody heard any actual range reports or anything close to a review (gun rags don't count) on these pistols ? For all we know, they could be complete crap. Btw, Sarsilmaz pirated some music from the video game Rogue Spear (the sequel to Rainbow Six) for their website. Did anybody else catch that ?



No, had the sound turned off.
I loved that soundtrack.

Will check it out.


ETA
Holy crap you are right! That is blatant. Someone needs to email Red Storm games or whoever the publisher is...

I doubt they are paying for the rights (although it is possible) - but if not...Armalite partnering with a copyright pirate? Not good.


website here
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 9:51:11 AM EDT
if you check armalites website they have an armalite marked pistol with a pre-b style round trigger guard. that just might be a deal maker for me.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:04:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
That's a Tanfoglio, components made in Italy and assembled in many different places like Israel (Jericho, Baby Desert Eagle) and now Turkey. Tanfoglio pistols are sold by EAA in the US. Massimo puts different cuts and profiles on the slide and frame to make them look a bit different to other customers' pistols. Tanfoglio have an ultr-modern factory pouring out components for anyone, much like Ruger with their investment casting plant and S&W with their CNC machines. Tanfoglio are IMPROVED CZ75s, damned good guns with better triggers than a CZ75 and made of much harder steel with much better finishes.




Sorry man but the trigger on my 10MM Witness does not even compare with any of my CZs. Especialy my 40B or 97B. I like Witness pistols but they are not an improvement over CZs.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 10:11:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
INDEED ! They could be the "HighPoint" of a Collection!





An AK-nut looking down their nose at ANY gun is simply hysterical...........




Why?
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 11:34:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GenghisKhan:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
INDEED ! They could be the "HighPoint" of a Collection!





An AK-nut looking down their nose at ANY gun is simply hysterical...........




Why?





Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:06:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 6:10:23 AM EDT by BlackandGreen]




The Sarsilmaz-produced "Kilinc"
i1.tinypic.com/o8yo7s.jpg .............. .. .hey....how`d somebody get this pic of my 9mm witness???.............


Link Posted: 2/24/2006 6:11:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Trey-W:

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
Tanfoglio are IMPROVED CZ75s, damned good guns with better triggers than a CZ75 and made of much harder steel with much better finishes.



You make it sound like CZ's are made of pot-metal. The P-01 made it though NATO trials, I do not think there is any defeciany in the choice of metals.



Sorry, that wasn't my intention. CZ metal is as good as Browning HP or most 1911s. What I meant to say was that the Tanfoglio steel is a level above that, we have to use carbide drills to make holes for ghost holsters.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:31:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:

Originally Posted By Trey-W:

Originally Posted By Monkey-man:
Tanfoglio are IMPROVED CZ75s, damned good guns with better triggers than a CZ75 and made of much harder steel with much better finishes.



You make it sound like CZ's are made of pot-metal. The P-01 made it though NATO trials, I do not think there is any defeciany in the choice of metals.



Sorry, that wasn't my intention. CZ metal is as good as Browning HP or most 1911s. What I meant to say was that the Tanfoglio steel is a level above that, we have to use carbide drills to make holes for ghost holsters.



What grade is it? 410 stainless? Most use 416 AFAIK, 410 is nice but a lot harder to machine.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 12:30:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
Didn't Springfield import cz copies for a while a few years back?

Just ain't up my alley or else I would own a witness or CZ already. I was hoping for more from Armalite, but they continue to disappoint when it comes to anything but their AR15/AR10's. ....and the AR50's....and the AR30's......




Yes. Late 80's, early 90's. Called the P-9 if I remember right.

Unless the price on these is VERY attractive (unlikely given their AR prices) I can't see this thing working. CZ's aren't exactly flying off the dealer's shelves. Ditto for EAA/Tangfolio/etal. Good design. A tad heavy. And a very long double action. The name will only get you so far. And I'm not convinced the Armalite name is the gold standard in firearms anyway.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 7:26:27 PM EDT
Armalite would have to sell these for LESS than a CZ75 is going for to get my money.
And with the record Armalite has, they'll overcharge for it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 12:50:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
The last thing we needed was another CZ/Tangfolio/Witness/SpringfieldP9/Baby Eagle/Jericho clone.

Not knocking the gun, it's a good design. But doing the same thing others are doing is hardly going to get you a lot of attention.



Found another....Sphinx. Swiss gun based on the CZ.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 7:28:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/25/2006 7:29:10 AM EDT by Derek45]
I wouldn't piss on that thing if I saw it on fire.



Wasn't there a recent thread about Turkey producing a very anti USA film about the war in Iraq?


Get a real CZ-75, they are very nice and affordable.


I'd rather have the CZ than the EEA/ Tangfolio clones.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 9:22:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
The last thing we needed was another CZ/Tangfolio/Witness/SpringfieldP9/Baby Eagle/Jericho clone.

Not knocking the gun, it's a good design. But doing the same thing others are doing is hardly going to get you a lot of attention.



Found another....Sphinx. Swiss gun based on the CZ.



Link please.

I'll take a good look at Anything Swiss made.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 2:02:33 PM EDT
Link to Sphinx arms. They are harder to find then a bull with tits.

www.sphinxarms.com/en/3000std_std.html

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:11:24 PM EDT
From what I have seen Armalite offers nothing that would cause me to even think about straying away from my beloved HKs.
Swing and a MISS!
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 3:49:11 PM EDT
The Turkish gerndarms who worked with me in Bosnia, carried these and liked them. Turks have been doing the war thing for a while and their shotguns are better than the average Chinese stuff.

Turkish population is for the most part pro American, lately there has been a lot of talk by the EU
not wanting to let the Turks in the EU, this is making the Americans look like big brother again.
Would have been nice if the 4th could have jumped off out of Turkey, that would have made the war what exactly ....a day and a half shorter? We would still be where we are now.

Judge Turk guns on how well they work, they may be pieces of dung or Hershey Bars for a nickle.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 4:13:19 PM EDT
First of all, why would you want one when you could get a browning hipower type, or a HK USP, 1911 etc etc. Second of all:

FUCK TURKEY

Did you see that shit in that post about that anti american movie made in Turkey that shows americans troops wholesale slaughtering innocents.

THe post features an article about thas anti american anti semitic movie being show to Turks in Germany.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:06:27 PM EDT

"Valley of the Wolves: Iraq" is the name of the Anti USA movie.

Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:14:04 PM EDT
To be fair, a country's liberal or anti war movements are not always the best benchmark for their arms industry. We have our own history of anti-war and liberal hoopla.
Link Posted: 2/25/2006 5:49:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:
To be fair, a country's liberal or anti war movements are not always the best benchmark for their arms industry. We have our own history of anti-war and liberal hoopla.



Good point.


I'd still rather just get a real CZ-75.

They're only about $400
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