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Posted: 7/14/2009 5:14:31 AM EST
Was the competition between 10mm and .40cal ammo won by .40caliber? Or was it never really a competition?

Are 10mm more or less not really popular enough to sustain themselves for much longer?

I was looking on Sportsman's Guide for 10mm ammo and it seems pretty scarce.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 5:18:43 AM EST
I actually think that it is becoming more popular.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 5:20:39 AM EST
10mm is maintaining the same popularity as it has had for the past 15-20 years or so, and will most likely continue to do so.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 5:43:18 AM EST
Sounds good. Thanks

But odds are it would never be more available or priced lower than 9mm, right?
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 5:43:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2009 5:44:11 AM EST by pathfinder74]
**Double Post**
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 5:53:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Sounds good. Thanks

But odds are it would never be more available or priced lower than 9mm, right?


I am doubting that there will be any hand gun ammo besides .22LR that will be.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 5:57:50 AM EST
I use the 10mm for field (woods) use. It is a "niche" caliber cause it fills a "niche."

It will remain in use for a very long time. As for new models being introduced in 10mm, I dunno. The Vltor Fortis will make a splash when it finally arrives and more people sample the addictive 10mm goodness.

The re-release of the 10mm Delta Elite was welcome news too.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 6:00:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Sounds good. Thanks

But odds are it would never be more available or priced lower than 9mm, right?



Ha.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 6:00:47 AM EST
10mm is a hunters/reloaders cartridge. I finally got my first one this year and man have I been enlightened. I'm shooting things 3 times further and the power that's arriving at the target is more energy than the muzzle of my other guns.

Nothing will ever compete with 9mm because everyone has one, a manufacturer can produce 100s of 1000s and now it will be purchased, said manufactuer can't say how long 45 win mag will sit.

The 10mm is making a good comeback and if your a pavement/dirtroad guy it solves alot of problems.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 6:04:54 AM EST
10mm Auto is a cartridge that is here to stay.... simple as that.

It's not the number one cartridge but it's as popular as .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt.....

It's staying and it's not going to die off until we get blasters and light sabers.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 8:14:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Sounds good. Thanks

But odds are it would never be more available or priced lower than 9mm, right?


Roll your own.

Link Posted: 7/14/2009 9:06:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Was the competition between 10mm and .40cal ammo won by .40caliber? Or was it never really a competition?

Are 10mm more or less not really popular enough to sustain themselves for much longer?

I was looking on Sportsman's Guide for 10mm ammo and it seems pretty scarce.



if thats where you get your info, you have more problems then that.

Link Posted: 7/14/2009 9:24:08 AM EST
10mm has very loyal (actually fanatical) but somewhat small following. The cartridge isn't going away anytime soon. I don't necessarily see a lot of growth potential for it, but it's probably here for the long haul. It will never supercede the 9mm or the 45 acp or even the 40 S&W. It has impressive ballestics but the laws of physics also means is has impressive recoil. It's not for everyone.

I'm not a fan of the round and would be hard placed to name any of my friends who even own one. But for those who like it, enjoy.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 9:29:36 AM EST
10mm is an excellent cartridge. I would suggest reloading your own since most commercial ammo is a bit weak.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 12:57:10 PM EST
.40 won.

Just like .40 won out over the .41AE

10mm however won't be leaving any time soon. I'm seeing it more now than I ever have, but I think if you're looking for a cartridge that is gaining popularity faster than most others then I'd opt for .40 S&W. Nobody can say if it will ever surpass 9mm, I personally doubt it, but for me it has.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 1:36:01 PM EST
10mm will undergo a resurgence when Vltor releases the Fortis in quantity.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 1:49:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2009 1:57:28 PM EST by Viper1357]
10mm is a superior round in so many ways, but for early semi-auto's it seemd to be too much for early designs, and for those recoil sensitive.

IMHO the .40 S&W was an early answer to a problem that only existed for a short time. The problem (20 or so years ago) was that 10mm was "too powerful" and 9mm was under powered and bullet perfomance (expansion/penetration) was also lacking. So born was the .40 S&W round to fill the void between 9mm and .45 ACP. Times have changed since then.

Fast forward to today, and look at the improvement in 9mm bullet designs and +P rated performance. While the .40 S&W is still more powerful on paper, the modern 9mm +P is just as effective ballistically in defensive use, and if you need more performance, the much larger diameter .45 ACP has made equal strides in improved performance with many new defensive rounds that leave the .40 S&W lacking. If my 9mm can't do it for me, the .45 ACP will make a bigger hole, nearly as fast with the proper loads. Not bashing the .40 S&W, but there is no real need for it anymore.

10mm was a great round when it was invented, and is still great today, (sans weaker commercial loads) and properly loaded in a gun and with user that can handle it, is truly a formidible round that for defense or hunting can really do it all. It was just ahead of it's time for some reason..

This was the last of the SA OMEGA's with all the bugs worked out. They went out of production due to legal issues with Peters Stahl company who made the uppers in Germany. I can shoot smoking hot 10mm's through it with comfortable recoil, and with dual extractors I can also shoot .40 S&W as well. The .40's have to be hot or they don't cycle the slide fully. Shooting this gun would make anyone love the 10mm.






Link Posted: 7/14/2009 2:50:31 PM EST
I have an STI wide frame I'm building.

A spare slide assembly and mag in 10mm would be a hoot.

Than again I could just get one of the SVI slides with the swappable breach face and switch calibers by changing, barrel, mag and breach face...

Multi cal 1911?
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 2:59:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2009 2:59:50 PM EST by gmtmaster]
Originally Posted By Skunkeye:
10mm will undergo a resurgence when Vltor releases the Fortis in quantity.


That wont happen. T'aint comin.....
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 3:28:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Skunkeye:
10mm will undergo a resurgence when Vltor releases the Fortis in quantity.


That wont happen. T'aint comin.....


On what info due you base this on? What are your sources?
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 3:32:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By Skunkeye:
10mm will undergo a resurgence when Vltor releases the Fortis in quantity.


That wont happen. T'aint comin.....


On what info due you base this on? What are your sources?


Maybe and I mean MAYBE pre orders in 2010.... Do you remember the Peregrine Falcon?

Link Posted: 7/14/2009 4:01:09 PM EST
When it comes to the 10mm, why are the people who know the least always the ones banging on their keyboard the hardest?

"I don't own one, don't know anyone who does own one and will never own one, but I'm here to present my expert opinion".



Thanks, I'll file that amazingly valuable info exactly where it belongs.
Link Posted: 7/14/2009 4:08:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/14/2009 4:19:04 PM EST by gmtmaster]
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
When it comes to the 10mm, why are the people who know the least always the ones banging on their keyboard the hardest?

"I don't own one, don't know anyone who does own one and will never own one, but I'm here to present my expert opinion".



Thanks, I'll file that amazingly valuable info exactly where it belongs.


If you were referring to my post..... I own several of the original 1350 guns and a lifetime parts source, including magazines. If not, I apologize in advance...I would recommend reading "Bren Ten- The Heir apparent" and suggest Vltors weblog, and any other searches you might happen to do, will reveal similarities to the current effort on its resurrection.













Link Posted: 7/14/2009 4:52:01 PM EST
True, .45 and 9mm have come a long way with the +p loadings and higher powered loads that surpass the .40 S&W, but I would counter that with the same principles being applied to the .40 S&W. There are hotter loads for it as well. Ballistically the "baseline" 180 gr .40 load is close to the energy of a "baseline" 230 gr .45 load at the muzzle. It gives the higher capacity over the .45 also. The best part of it is I can go to my local Scheels, or Sportsman's Warehouse and they will have it in stock, and I can afford it. Like the other poster said, the 10mm is a reloaders cartridge. I really like the 10mm cartridge but it has been demonstrated that humans go down from less exotic rounds than it. To quote another user, "Remember the old days when people just died when you shot them? They didn't know you had to shoot them with a super duper whoopdie freakin doo round."

IMO the debate over pistol calibers is the same as the whole .308 or other high powered rifle cartridge versus intermediate rifle cartridges. There is no do-all cartridge for everything.
Link Posted: 7/16/2009 5:58:50 PM EST
I don't care if there are more 40 cal guns or there is more 40 cal ammo on the shelves. The 10mm offers performance that other semi-auto cartridges can't match.

I'm really OK with 10mm being a niche cartridge. I'll keep my G29.
Link Posted: 7/16/2009 7:14:39 PM EST
Yep, the 40S&W has got it all over the 10mm, not even close, many PDs have adopted the 40S&W.

Originally Posted By Viper1357:
.
.
This was the last of the SA OMEGA's with all the bugs worked out. They went out of production due to legal issues with Peters Stahl company who made the uppers in Germany. I can shoot smoking hot 10mm's through it with comfortable recoil, and with dual extractors I can also shoot .40 S&W as well. The .40's have to be hot or they don't cycle the slide fully. Shooting this gun would make anyone love the 10mm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/viper1357/Guns%20stuff/SA%20Omega/omega993.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/viper1357/Guns%20stuff/SA%20Omega/omega1003.jpg
My friend has one of those dual extractor Springfield Omegas. Great gun, but spare parts are almost non-existant for them. If you break one of those extractors, you are SOL.
Link Posted: 7/17/2009 8:28:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By warlord:
Yep, the 40S&W has got it all over the 10mm, not even close, many PDs have adopted the 40S&W.

Originally Posted By Viper1357:
.
.
This was the last of the SA OMEGA's with all the bugs worked out. They went out of production due to legal issues with Peters Stahl company who made the uppers in Germany. I can shoot smoking hot 10mm's through it with comfortable recoil, and with dual extractors I can also shoot .40 S&W as well. The .40's have to be hot or they don't cycle the slide fully. Shooting this gun would make anyone love the 10mm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/viper1357/Guns%20stuff/SA%20Omega/omega993.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/viper1357/Guns%20stuff/SA%20Omega/omega1003.jpg
My friend has one of those dual extractor Springfield Omegas. Great gun, but spare parts are almost non-existant for them. If you break one of those extractors, you are SOL.


Good gunsmith should be able to make an extractor.
Link Posted: 7/17/2009 4:52:05 PM EST
I just wish Springfield Armory would come out with an XD in 10mm...

Link Posted: 7/17/2009 6:15:06 PM EST
I absolutely love my G-20.
I like the versatality of the round, from CCW to thumping big animals.
Recoil is not as bad as non-10mm owners imagine.
Link Posted: 7/17/2009 6:38:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
When it comes to the 10mm, why are the people who know the least always the ones banging on their keyboard the hardest?

"I don't own one, don't know anyone who does own one and will never own one, but I'm here to present my expert opinion".



Thanks, I'll file that amazingly valuable info exactly where it belongs.


If you were referring to my post..... I own several of the original 1350 guns and a lifetime parts source, including magazines. If not, I apologize in advance...I would recommend reading "Bren Ten- The Heir apparent" and suggest Vltors weblog, and any other searches you might happen to do, will reveal similarities to the current effort on its resurrection.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/bren007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/bren008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture398.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/IMG00003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/IMG00002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture363.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture360.jpg


Absolutely beautiful.
As to your statement that the Fortis isn't comming,
Well, we have an excuse for being at least one day late; we did not want to make a post on April Fool’s Day… but we did want to make another post to assure everyone that the Fortis Pistol is alive and well, it has not fallen victim to “the Curse”.

Okay, so here is the real deal: Unless you have been living in a cave, in the remote mountain regions of Asscrackistan, you know that there has been an overwhelming surge in the sales and demand for anything firearms related… this demand started last November and curiously skyrocketed around the third week of January, only weeks after we returned from SHOT ’09.

Of course Vltor has a great deal of product that sits at the top of this burgeoning demand, but a lot of folks may not know that there are many goodies under our roof that are not found on the Vltor website – many of these lesser known items are delivered on government contracts and naturally take priority.

So… to be perfectly honest, with the onslaught of orders for existing products, we did push the Fortis to back of the table a bit, but it is still on the table and headway is still being made. Here is a quick update: All of the final design work to the frame has been finished, and the frame is production ready; the grips have been redesigned with a slight change to the “swell” which fills the hand much better (really, really nice); the production barrels are done; and several other little spring/screw/clip things have been finalized.

We have also increased the size of our production facility and have spent many hours designing new fixtures and tooling, we have given a lot of attention to increasing our production ability and we are installing a few million dollars worth of new machinery, most of this with an eye exclusively on the production of the Fortis Pistol.

Rest assured, the Fortis is still going to happen, but also rest assured that the time we temporarily took away from the Fortis has been well spent; we have been able to continue answering the phones, shipping product and most importantly filling contract orders to get essential product to our war fighters.


Do you know of some newer info? It sounds like big bucks are being spent on the project, Why do you think it won't happen?
Link Posted: 7/17/2009 7:59:10 PM EST
I wanted a 10mm pistol for sometime now but I just can't get the ammo locally. If do get one, I'll go with a Glock.
Link Posted: 7/18/2009 10:24:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By postpostban:
Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
When it comes to the 10mm, why are the people who know the least always the ones banging on their keyboard the hardest?

"I don't own one, don't know anyone who does own one and will never own one, but I'm here to present my expert opinion".



Thanks, I'll file that amazingly valuable info exactly where it belongs.


If you were referring to my post..... I own several of the original 1350 guns and a lifetime parts source, including magazines. If not, I apologize in advance...I would recommend reading "Bren Ten- The Heir apparent" and suggest Vltors weblog, and any other searches you might happen to do, will reveal similarities to the current effort on its resurrection.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/bren007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/bren008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture398.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/IMG00003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/IMG00002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture363.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v327/gmtmaster/Picture360.jpg


Absolutely beautiful.
As to your statement that the Fortis isn't comming,
Well, we have an excuse for being at least one day late; we did not want to make a post on April Fool’s Day… but we did want to make another post to assure everyone that the Fortis Pistol is alive and well, it has not fallen victim to “the Curse”.

Okay, so here is the real deal: Unless you have been living in a cave, in the remote mountain regions of Asscrackistan, you know that there has been an overwhelming surge in the sales and demand for anything firearms related… this demand started last November and curiously skyrocketed around the third week of January, only weeks after we returned from SHOT ’09.

Of course Vltor has a great deal of product that sits at the top of this burgeoning demand, but a lot of folks may not know that there are many goodies under our roof that are not found on the Vltor website – many of these lesser known items are delivered on government contracts and naturally take priority.

So… to be perfectly honest, with the onslaught of orders for existing products, we did push the Fortis to back of the table a bit, but it is still on the table and headway is still being made. Here is a quick update: All of the final design work to the frame has been finished, and the frame is production ready; the grips have been redesigned with a slight change to the “swell” which fills the hand much better (really, really nice); the production barrels are done; and several other little spring/screw/clip things have been finalized.

We have also increased the size of our production facility and have spent many hours designing new fixtures and tooling, we have given a lot of attention to increasing our production ability and we are installing a few million dollars worth of new machinery, most of this with an eye exclusively on the production of the Fortis Pistol.

Rest assured, the Fortis is still going to happen, but also rest assured that the time we temporarily took away from the Fortis has been well spent; we have been able to continue answering the phones, shipping product and most importantly filling contract orders to get essential product to our war fighters.


Do you know of some newer info? It sounds like big bucks are being spent on the project, Why do you think it won't happen?


I will be just as happy as you if it comes out...last weblog was 02 APR. Not a peep since. Time will tell
Link Posted: 7/18/2009 10:34:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Was the competition between 10mm and .40cal ammo won by .40caliber?



Are you serious??

Link Posted: 7/21/2009 7:27:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Cheesebeast:
I use the 10mm for field (woods) use. It is a "niche" caliber cause it fills a "niche."

It will remain in use for a very long time. As for new models being introduced in 10mm, I dunno. The Vltor Fortis will make a splash when it finally arrives and more people sample the addictive 10mm goodness.

The re-release of the 10mm Delta Elite was welcome news too.


In the last few years you have had Smith and Wesson re-release the 610 10mm revolvers and Colt re-release the Delta Elite. You also have Kimber and Dan Wesson making 10mm 1911s(as well as others).

10mm is here to stay. Ammo has been harder to find as of late due to shortages on pretty much any kind of ammo. It will never be a really popular round but will have its followers.

My small collection of 10mm. Glock 20FS(going to get a 20sf or 29sf at some point as I want a smaller grip), New Delta Elite(going to try to fire it today for the first time), and a 6 inch 610.

Link Posted: 7/21/2009 2:52:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2009 2:56:57 PM EST by travis8798]
The story I read/heard: 10mm was developed for the FBI after the 1986 Miami shootout, due to the underpowered cartridges currently in use by the agency, but was considered too harsh to be used as a "one-size-fits-all" cartridge for the agency. As a result, Smith and Wesson developed the shorter cased .40S&W which featured a reduced powder load. I have no idea how true all that is, but there you have it.

1. There never really was a competition between .40 and 10mm.

2. Popularity hasn't changed much. A few companies have 10mm offerings, I wouldn't expect to see many more.

3. 10mm is not an abundant cartridge. Look into reloading if you want large, cheaper, quantities.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 12:09:41 AM EST
I have always liked the 10mm cartridge. I just haven't cared for most of the platforms out there currently chambered in 10mm. But if the Fortis makes it to market, that might change rather quickly.
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 5:07:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2009 5:09:19 AM EST by JamesP81]
10mm Auto is a handgun hunter's cartridge for those that prefer semi auto to revolver. It can be used as a combat pistol round, but recoil and getting back on target is a concern.

On the other hand, if you hit on your first shot, getting back on target probably isn't necessary
Link Posted: 8/14/2009 9:14:30 AM EST
G29 for the CCW win. Given it's size, it's actually a smooth little shooter.
Link Posted: 8/15/2009 6:35:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
10mm Auto is a handgun hunter's cartridge for those that prefer semi auto to revolver. It can be used as a combat pistol round, but recoil and getting back on target is a concern.

On the other hand, if you hit on your first shot, getting back on target probably isn't necessary


Recoil isn't that bad in the glock or in the delta elite. Pretty much nothing in the 610 but that thing is freaking huge. Don't see it as a big issue but one has to be use to the kick(I'd take one of them over the recoil of some sub-compacts in things like 45 or 357mag).

Originally Posted By sredish:
G29 for the CCW win. Given it's size, it's actually a smooth little shooter.


One of my friends bought the 29 after he shot my 20 and liked it so much. I've shot it a few times and it is a nice little gun. I bet a 29sf would be even better(haven't held one yet).
Link Posted: 8/15/2009 6:38:21 PM EST
I don't sell many of them. I think they are going the way of the 357 sig. I sell a bunch of 40s&w's though.
Link Posted: 8/15/2009 6:52:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By WolfFox:
I don't sell many of them. I think they are going the way of the 357 sig. I sell a bunch of 40s&w's though.


Well they are not a mainstream load that's for sure. I do know some people with MP5's chambered in it though. Talk about one mean little bitch.

I look at the 10 more along the lines of things like the 44mag, 454, 460sw, 50ae, 50sw etc. They have a good following but your average person wouldn't buy it. As with many of them they also seem to be reloaders cartridge as well.
Link Posted: 8/15/2009 7:02:05 PM EST
Popularity is not an indicator of excellence. The 10mm is the most perfect pistol round ever concieved. Too bad the ignorant masses will never know. I carry one every single day.
Link Posted: 8/22/2009 8:48:25 PM EST
So what happens when they come out with a .40 +P? Would that shake anything up?
Link Posted: 8/23/2009 1:49:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hb2:
So what happens when they come out with a .40 +P? Would that shake anything up?


40 S&W in it's original form operates at +P pressure levels. There really is no place for the round to go.
Link Posted: 8/23/2009 2:35:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hb2:
So what happens when they come out with a .40 +P? Would that shake anything up?


your hand, and everything else nearby
Link Posted: 8/23/2009 2:46:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By bluezerosix:
I just wish Springfield Armory would come out with an XD in 10mm...


That would be pure joy.
Link Posted: 8/23/2009 7:53:57 AM EST
I've always been a fan of the 10mm and the Bren Ten when it came out. Maybe thats way I've owned a bunch of CZ 75s. I also shoot allot of .41 mag in several guns. I would like to get a 1911 version in 10mm as I miss my two Coonan Model Bs in .357 mag. That was another sweet and enjoyable pistol.

CD
Link Posted: 8/25/2009 3:37:15 AM EST
10mm is never go to sell in the number of the 9mm/40/45; but it's not going to go away. Good round.
Link Posted: 8/25/2009 2:13:58 PM EST
I have a Delta Gold Cup, actually shot it last weekend. Just loaded up the empty brass today even.
I think it will hang around, it is pleasant to shoot (by those used to the higher power end of the pistol scale) and quite accurate. A niche caliber to be sure but still enough appeal to many to keep going.
Link Posted: 8/25/2009 4:00:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By postpostban:
Originally Posted By Hb2:
So what happens when they come out with a .40 +P? Would that shake anything up?


40 S&W in it's original form operates at +P pressure levels. There really is no place for the round to go.


You have had 40sw ammo marked +p for a while now even though it isn't an official spec(just like +p+ in some other rounds). Haven't shot any but my understanding is that it still doesn't compare to the standard loaded 10mm.
Link Posted: 8/26/2009 6:04:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By ccosby:
Originally Posted By postpostban:
Originally Posted By Hb2:
So what happens when they come out with a .40 +P? Would that shake anything up?


40 S&W in it's original form operates at +P pressure levels. There really is no place for the round to go.


You have had 40sw ammo marked +p for a while now
even though it isn't an official spec(just like +p+ in some other rounds). Haven't shot any but my understanding is that it still doesn't compare to the standard loaded 10mm.


ORLY?

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