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Posted: 12/19/2003 6:36:12 AM EDT
I want to try some in teh 45ACP. Anyone have experience with it? Are they going to come out with a 9mm version?

SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 11:52:51 AM EDT
Is this stuff an the market yet?  I have not seen any for sale in shops or at the shows, just read about it in gun magazines.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:33:09 PM EDT
I have not seen any either but if their claims are accurate it could be the next hot round. I hope if so the bullets are available as components.

SorryOccifer
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 10:35:59 AM EDT
If you reload you can buy the bullets from Barnes.  My local shop sells the .45 hex round for $26.00 a box.  I am planning on reloading the XPB bullet in my .44 Mag for a CCW load.
I can load the round for alot less than $1.30 a round.
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 11:27:16 AM EDT
Watch for your state laws, guys.  Missouri requires that the round have at least a lead core.  (We ought to get the Green Party on this for us!)  Otherwise, the state considers it an armor-piercing round.

I'll try to back this up, but it's been months since I went through this with the instructor at the police academy.
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 1:13:19 PM EDT
also if your involved in a shoot with hand loads your in for a guilty verdict because you used "special killer bullets" insted of factory bullets...like factory bullets aren't just as dangerous
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 4:54:54 AM EDT
I've been carrying them in my .45 for about 4 months now. From everything I've read, they expand very well.

I've put abput 200 rounds downrange all are accurate thru my H&K recoil is not bad at all.

My only reservation about them is that I haven't heard any real world shooting with them, So the first three rounds are Taurus followed by hydro-shoks. (just in case)
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:05:16 AM EDT
The Barnes bullets expand at 1,050fps. I load it to 1,100 fps out of my 4" 29-2.  I also load
the WW Silvertip at 1,000fps. also a low end .44. mag load. Hope I get a jury of gun educated peers, if not let the cards fall as they may.
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 11:36:15 PM EDT
Found it:

Use or possession of a metal-penetrating bullet during the commission of a crime--definition--penalty.

571.150. 1. As used in this section, the term "metal-penetrating bullet" means handgun bullet or projectile of 9 mm, .25, .32, .38, .357, .41, .44, or .451 or other caliber which is comprised of a hardened core equal to the minimum of the maximum attainable hardness by solid red metal alloy which purposely reduces the normal expansion or mushrooming of the bullet's or projectile's shape upon impact. Metal-penetrating bullet does not include any bullet or projectile composed of copper or brass jacket with lead or lead alloy cores or any bullet or projectile composed of lead or lead alloys.

2. Any person who uses or possesses a metal-penetrating bullet during the commission of a crime is guilty of a class B felony.

   (L. 1986 S.B. 450 § 3)

   Effective 3-17-86

Link Posted: 12/23/2003 11:15:31 AM EDT
Neither the Barnes Copper bullet or the Silvertip possess a hardness sufficient to stop them from the mushrooming effect.  So that to me would non make them armor piercing.
Armor piercing in Florida means any bullet which has a steel core or core of equivalent
hardness and a truncated cone which is designed for use in a handgun as either an armor or metal piercing bullet. Wonder what your state laws say about super hard cast lead bullets.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:49:42 PM EDT

Metal-penetrating bullet does not include any bullet or projectile composed of copper or brass jacket with lead or lead alloy cores or any bullet or projectile composed of lead or lead alloys.

Lead/uranium/tungsten alloy, anyone?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:21:28 PM EDT
I've been carrying them in my Sig P-245. I've fired them into water, soaked newsprint, and various other mediums. I know this is not scientific but they have opened up every time into the Hex configuration they advertise them as doing. Load is very mild in recoil and has good accuracy. David at ammolab recommends them in 4" barreled guns. Seems like the slightly slower velocities keeps them from peeling back their petals too far. I feel pretty comfortable with them. When I don't use them I carry 230 gr. Ranger T's.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 4:33:09 AM EDT
I've done my usual un-scientific testing of them. Expansion is as advertised. However, penetration, was pretty shallow. I personally prefer penetration first, expantion second. All the expansion in the world wont do me any good if the bullet doesnt go deep enough to get to the vitals.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 4:45:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
I've done my usual un-scientific testing of them. Expansion is as advertised. However, penetration, was pretty shallow. I personally prefer penetration first, expantion second. All the expansion in the world wont do me any good if the bullet doesnt go deep enough to get to the vitals.



The way I see it, its the opposite. Such a big deal is made of penetration, if your shooting cars or BPVs that's one thing, but your heart is what...3" deep in your chest? 6" from either side of the chest from the sides? The only way you need such deep penetration is if you shoot them up the ass as they are bent over and you want it to hit their heart.

I may pick up a couple of boxes today in 40 and 45.

SorryOciffer
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 6:14:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SorryOciffer:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
I've done my usual un-scientific testing of them. Expansion is as advertised. However, penetration, was pretty shallow. I personally prefer penetration first, expantion second. All the expansion in the world wont do me any good if the bullet doesnt go deep enough to get to the vitals.



The way I see it, its the opposite. Such a big deal is made of penetration, if your shooting cars or BPVs that's one thing, but your heart is what...3" deep in your chest? 6" from either side of the chest from the sides? The only way you need such deep penetration is if you shoot them up the ass as they are bent over and you want it to hit their heart.

I may pick up a couple of boxes today in 40 and 45.

SorryOciffer



The human body is a very tough thing to go through. From my time in Property & Evidence with the SO, I saw a LOT of rounds recovered from people an the incident reports and photos to go eith them. I NEVER saw a 9mm, .40, or .45 round over penetrate a human body on a direct frontal hit. Most rounds stopped inside. The better ones stopped just undfer the skin on the opposite side, making a slight bulge. I'd rather have a non-expanding bullet go through and through, than a super expander stop short. A good controlled expansion round with good penetration is the best, for me.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 11:52:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
I've done my usual un-scientific testing of them. Expansion is as advertised. However, penetration, was pretty shallow. I personally prefer penetration first, expantion second. All the expansion in the world wont do me any good if the bullet doesnt go deep enough to get to the vitals.



Very true. That's why I stick with Gold Dots.

The FBI protocol calls for a bullet to consistantly penetrate a minimum of 12", with 18" being preferred.

Lack of penetration will get you killed- as the FBI found out in the Dade County (Miami) shootout. In this case , I believe it was the 9mm Winchester SilverTip that failed to deliver.

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