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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/24/2005 8:48:26 PM EDT
There was a recent home invasion robbery here; one of the orcs was wearing body armor.

So, is the 7.62 X 25 as good or better than the 9mm? (penetration wise especially)

And what about the CZ-52...is this a good gun?

I guess the 5.7 is out because we can't get the good ammo...
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 3:36:13 AM EDT
I would think it would have to penetrate deeper, but I doubt it could go through body armor. If you want to scare the crap out of the 'orcs' and split armor, wouldn't the S&W .460 Magnum do that? Some of the rounds for that thing are really fast and use spitzer bullets, over 2000 FPS I think.

I have a CZ52 and it's a nice pistol. Understand that it's a military gun and wasn't made to be pretty. The fit of the parts is absolutely excellent as is it's nice, solid feel but the external machining, compared to newer guns, is rough. The grip is long. Not vertically, but from front to back. It's very accurate, far more so than I am. It has a very nice trigger.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:48:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 6:48:26 AM EDT by pillbox]
5.7 is out cause we cant get the good ammo...hmmmm the SS192 civy round and its later replacement SS195LF has no problems with level 1,1+,2A, and 2 kevlar armor at normal handgun distances....at 15 yards it will penetrate the 22 layers of kevlar of a L2 vest and two 900 page phone books. The cz52 was tested at the same time with Norinco FMJ on the L2 vest. It went through the 22 layers and one 900 page phone book. The same vest panel then proceeded to stop .357 158gr, .44mag 240SP,.45acp 230gr,.45win mag 230gr
the watered down SS196 with the hornady v-max huntingbullet that mushrooms and is downloaded to 1600fps is the 5.7 round that wont poke a L2 vest panel.

5 shots of SS192..Vs a level 2, and 1800 pages of phone book at 15 yards(get the picture lol)

And another shot of the phone books that werent quite protected from a magazine of civy 5.7 ammo

But as far as stopping power compared to the best 9mm hollow point against unarmored targets....9mm would win..but its because of the very thing that wont let it pass through the vest...expansion,which is the enemy of penetration , and enery dump...in flesh that is a good thing, in kevlar its not. There is simply no free ride when it comes to pistols and Kevlar. If you want penetration AND massive wounding nothing short of a centerfire rifle will get you both. But its the pistol that we are most likely to have when on us in a fight.
5.7 makes no attemp to expand(except SS196) it uses tumble after vest preforation as the mechanism of wounding...long .82inch tail heavy bullet. 7.62x25 doesnt tumble or expand which may make it the least wounding of the three....but make no mistake , it will kill...shot placement is the key with ANY firearm. also 7.62x25 is the most likely of the 3(9mm/5.7/7.62) to come out the 130lbs crack heads back with enough steam left to injure a bystander.....not a concern if you are in a war shooting your ppsh41 at imperial running dog lacky capitalists, but is a concern to your apartment neibors. There are other hanguns of resonable size that also punch common soft armor types...Ruger Blackhawk in .30US Carbine, Automag III in .30 US carbine is another two.
pic showing 7.62x25 hole and stopped magnum bullets
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:19:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:33:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 11:34:11 AM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
There was a recent home invasion robbery here; one of the orcs was wearing body armor.

So, is the 7.62 X 25 as good or better than the 9mm? (penetration wise especially)

7.62X25 is overall better at penetration.

And what about the CZ-52...is this a good gun?

Inexpensive. Solidly built. Commercial and surplus ammo available. It also has the 'cool' Com-Block
factor.





Check out one of my threads here--->www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=74466 reprinted below:

My parents are originally from Hungary and I've always been intrigued by Soviet block firearms. I recently purchased a CZ-52 pistol and have done some reading about it. I've come across a lot of threads that tout its soft body armor piercing capability but I would like to see what others have to say about this.

What I've found seems rather underwhelming for 85gr. FMJ lead-core ammo, although I didn't buy the pistol so I could shoot criminals wearing level IIA vests. That's what AR's (ETA: and AK's) are for.

The following is what I've found on the internet (big qualification) and I'm simply interested in people's comments about it:

1) According to Body Armor #1:

Level III-A
(24-28 Layers of Kevlar)

Caliber-----------Bullet Weight (Grains)---Bullet Type-----Barrel (Inches)----Velocity (Feet/Second)
7.62x25 Tokarev-----------86---------------------AP-----------------?---------------------------1440

This does back up the body armor piercing capability, but since AP ammo is not legally available in the U.S. in handgun calibers it is a moot point.

2) According to Body Armor #2,

Level II
(20-24 Layers of Kevlar)

Caliber--------Bullet Weight (Grains)----Bullet Type----Barrel (Inches)------Velocity (Feet/Second)
7.62X25--------------------85gr.----------------VSP FMJ----------24------------------------------1250

I'm not sure where they got the 24" barrel. Since it is a British site I thought maybe it is in cm, but it clearly shows that it is in inches. I don't know of any rifles that shoot the 7.62X25mm cartridge, but I'm sure there are some. I thought maybe the CZ/VZ-52 but according to this it is chambered in either 7.62 x 45mm M52 cartridge or 7.62 x 39 mm M43.

ETA: I'm not sure why the velocity was so low with such a long barrel.

The submachine guns chambered in 7.62X25mm have much shorter barrels. An example is the Klin-2:



Klin-2


The Klin-2 was designed by Victor kalashnikov and Alexey Dragunov, the sons of the two most notable Russian smallarms designers. The weapon utilizes a modified version of the AK-108s balanced recoil system which is reported to make the high rate of fire very controlable. 7.62x25mm is best known for it's use in the TT-33 Tokarev, but was chosen for the Kiln-2 because the terminal ballistics and armor penetration are superior to the 9x18mm and 9x19mm.



3) According to Body Armor #3:

Level III-A+ (not sure what the "+" means)
(24-28 Layers of Kevlar)

Caliber-----------Bullet Weight (Grains)---Bullet Type-----Barrel (Inches)----Velocity (Feet/Second)
7.62x25 Tokarev--------------?---------------'steel jacket'----------?----------------------1443 (440m/s)

I'm not sure if they truly mean a copper gilding steel jacket or steel-core (AP), but I'm guessing the former.

There are other sites that give even more incomplete descriptions such as only describing the bullet as '7.62X25 Tokarev'.

Comments?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:54:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 11:57:23 AM EDT by pillbox]
yes the body armor stats are wrong...on the post above you list them all having about the same number of layers???????????

IIA = approx 16 layers kevlar
II = approx 22 layers Kevlar
IIIA = approx 48 layers kevlar
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 12:14:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 12:14:41 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By pillbox:
yes the body armor stats are wrong...on the post above you list them all having about the same number of layers???????????

IIA = approx 16 layers kevlar
II = approx 22 layers Kevlar
IIIA = approx 48 layers kevlar



pillbox,

No flame, I copied the information directly from the websites listed. You can check out the sites since I posted links. I know nothing about this stuff which is why I posted my original thread.

Do you know what lead-core FMJ 7.62X25 85gr. at 1600fps will penetrate?

C-4
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 1:52:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 1:58:08 PM EDT by pillbox]
As i posted above with pictures...7.62x25 will penetrate LII at normal handgun distance.we tested it....it didnt penetrate as much as 5.7, but by the same token it dont cost as much to shoot.
and as i do know about soft body armor and have took schools on it, plus worn it 20 years..I really can say the sites are in error.
Can you honestly look at the layer info you posted and not see something really screwy???? with LII and IIIA having the same number of layers?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 2:31:02 PM EDT
12 gauge slug will kill the perp, even with body armor, if you hit them squarely in the chest. The force from the slug is enough to crush the sternum and cave in the chest cavity. Of course, this isn't a "quick" death as compared to a head shot.

If two double taps to the chest doesn't stop the perp, your follow up shots should be aimed at the head. If you are in a position to not be able to get a head shot, go for exposed extremities (legs, feet, arms, hands). Heck, go for a crotch shot too. I doubt the perp would be wearing a bulletproof cup like what's his name in the movie Super Troopers.

I remember a demonstration at the academy about 10 years ago where a dummy wearing a Level 3 vest was shot with a 12 gauge slug at about 10 yards. The slug didn't penetrate the vest, however, the dummy's chest was crushed in enough so that you could pour yourself a good sized bowl of corn flakes and have breakfast.

Ideally, you should have some type of carbine (AR-15, AK-47, FAL, etc) and a good pump-action 12 gauge. If a pistol is all you have, be sure to have some extra ammo (speedloaders for revolvers, magazines for semi-autos) close to your handgun. As with anything, practice firing your handgun. Practice double tap drills followed with headshots, practice slowly and gradually speeding it up till it becomes fluid. By fluid, I mean you can run 5 consecutive drills with all your shots on target at 7 yards.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:41:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pillbox:
As i posted above with pictures...7.62x25 will penetrate LII at normal handgun distance.we tested it....it didnt penetrate as much as 5.7, but by the same token it dont cost as much to shoot.
and as i do know about soft body armor and have took schools on it, plus worn it 20 years..I really can say the sites are in error.
Can you honestly look at the layer info you posted and not see something really screwy???? with LII and IIIA having the same number of layers?



I did see that, but I didn't know which site was wrong. Honestly,

Another question if you don't mind: Does a steel core generally make more of a difference than velocity when it comes to penetration for 7.62X25?

From what you are saying, level IIA will stop 7.62X25, but does it do so without causing the 4" 'dent' in the underlying clay?

I could have used you in my original thread.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 6:19:18 PM EDT
I wasnt shooting clay, I was doing Kevlar and phone books.....7.62x25 zipps right though IIA and LII...when shooting a LII it will penetrate the 22 layers of kevlar and do about 800 pages of phone book.
While steel core may effect its performance on things such as auto bodies...it really has no effect on Kevlar over the lead core...as the lead core has very little to no deformation going through kevlar(its a hard little bullet)

your likelyhood of dealing with a BG with a IIIA vest is slim, most out there in both police and civy ownership are the IIA, and the higher rated II......IIIA is a bitch to wear day in day out.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 7:05:19 PM EDT
Thank you. At gunboards.com, IIRC, someone on the CZ-52 board chronoed S&B 7.62X25 near 1600fps. Do you know how new the Norinco ammo was that you used ie. what the approximate muzzle velocity was? Just curious if you had an idea. I know that a lot of the surplus handgun ammo (as opposed to the significantly hotter SMG loads) can be several hundred fps slower, in the 1200-1300fps range from reading and from what some dealers actually advertise.

You have restored my faith in my CZ-52. The sites I posted likely have no idea what they are talking about. I saw many other sites that I didn't list that were even worse.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 7:26:38 PM EDT
Over on the Marcarov boards a Sheriff tested some 7.62x25 on two different IIIa vests. Yes, it penetrated quite easily.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 7:55:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 7:55:37 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By outofstep:
Over on the Marcarov boards a Sheriff tested some 7.62x25 on two different IIIa vests. Yes, it penetrated quite easily.



It was actually IIA if this is the thread you are talking about-->www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86473&whichpage=1

But thanks for pointing that out. It's one of only a few threads on the topic.

Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:21:48 PM EDT
Anyone know a good place to buy a CZ-52?
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:17:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Anyone know a good place to buy a CZ-52?



www.militarygunsupply.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=CRCZ52 have arsenal refinished pistols.

Aimsurplus and J & G Sales don't seem to have any.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:23:40 AM EDT
Glad to been a help :) the Norinco ammo we used was 1985 commercial, full power loads.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:15:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By outofstep:
Over on the Marcarov boards a Sheriff tested some 7.62x25 on two different IIIa vests. Yes, it penetrated quite easily.



It was actually IIA if this is the thread you are talking about-->www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86473&whichpage=1

But thanks for pointing that out. It's one of only a few threads on the topic.




Same guy. Later on he tests a IIIa vest. I'm pretty sure anyways, there were like 4 threads about it on the mark board. The thread you linked to only shows the first vesy he tested.

I would post a link, but its on a computer that is still packed up.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 1:21:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By outofstep:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By outofstep:
Over on the Marcarov boards a Sheriff tested some 7.62x25 on two different IIIa vests. Yes, it penetrated quite easily.



It was actually IIA if this is the thread you are talking about-->www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86473&whichpage=1

But thanks for pointing that out. It's one of only a few threads on the topic.




Same guy. Later on he tests a IIIa vest. I'm pretty sure anyways, there were like 4 threads about it on the mark board. The thread you linked to only shows the first vesy he tested.

I would post a link, but its on a computer that is still packed up.



Would you mind posting them if you get a chance? What is the 'mark board'? Thanks outofstep.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:43:13 PM EDT
Wow, $150 for a refinished CZ-52, , that's a weekends amount of fun money! Thanks for the link!
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 12:21:02 AM EDT
Heh, i guess it was at gunboards. Makarov just links to them. I was thinking Makarov had their own board. But when I checked just now, they simply linked to gunboards.

It'll be awhile before I get the other computer out. But the link you posted had the same guy that did the other tests. You could probably search under his name to find the other threads.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 6:03:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By outofstep:
Heh, i guess it was at gunboards. Makarov just links to them. I was thinking Makarov had their own board. But when I checked just now, they simply linked to gunboards.

It'll be awhile before I get the other computer out. But the link you posted had the same guy that did the other tests. You could probably search under his name to find the other threads.



These are his two threads on the topic where he shoots vests and he uses level IIa in both:


www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=92955&SearchTerms=sheriff108


www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=86473&SearchTerms=sheriff108
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