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Posted: 2/21/2007 2:07:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 5:03:04 PM EST by Frag]
Choices for Self Defense, Home Protection or General Carry IMHO

My personal view on 9x19mm bullet weights:
Since I personally favor the 124 Grain +P loads in 9x19mm pistol bullets I wanted to limit testing to the middle weight bunch. I have heard over some time now that the 147gr 9mm bullets were originally designed to be sub-sonic ammunition and that they are "too heavy for the 9mm cartridge", "they won't reach proper velocities", "they suffer from poor expansion" ect... ect... etc... These statements may hold merit and may be true. I wanted to see for myself so I decided to add the 147gr HST to the bunch. I've heard such good things about it I just had to see what it will do. It's tested in a category all of it's own without any comparison. It turned out that the 147gr HST was a good frame of reference for the massive Ranger-T's expansion. see further below...

Procedure:
Each round was fired 3 times into two 12" deep water jugs placed one behind the other
Firearm:
Springfield XD-9 Service model with a 4" Barrel
Distance:
7 Yards from target
Temperature:
67F - 70F
Humidity:
Well, I'm from West Texas and it's pretty dry in the desert.

Contenders:
100 - 127 Grain Class Bullets:
Corbon Pow'R'Ball 100gr +P (PB09100)
Federal Hi-Shok 115gr JHP +P+ (9BPLE)
Federal Expanding-FMJ 105gr (PD9CSP2H)
Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr (P9HS1)
Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr +P+ (P9HS3G1)
Federal HST 124gr JHP (P9HST1)
Remington GoldenSaber BONDED 124gr +P BJHP (GSB9MMD)
SPEER GoldDot 124gr GDHP (23618)
SPEER GoldDot 124gr GDHP +P (53617)
Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)

147 Grain Bullets:
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)

Here is a summery of the testing:

For closer inspection view these larger images: 1.Front Face 2.Top View 3.Base View


01.) Corbon Pow'R'Ball 100gr +P (PB09100)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1475 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 483 FP/Lbs (4" Barrel)

Corbon LE WebSite: Pow'RBall (PB09100) Spec Sheet
Corbon Dakotaammo WebSite: Pow'RBall (PB09100) Spec Sheet
Note: Both of the Corbon sites list the same P/N (PB09100) with different specs. The LE site states 1100 FPS and the commercial site states 1475 FPS, that's a big difference. At a very light weight of 100gr and a +P load I find it hard to believe that this round is Sub-Sonic at 1100FPS. I tend to believe the 1475FPS spec.
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug but FAILED to pierced the second jug.
Expansion:
The lead core expanded well in diameter and the jacket peeled back and showed signs of fragmentation.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
was expecting more from this round. The light 100gr +P load with the expansion enhancing polymer ball looked promising. The polymer ball also gives this round the outline of a FMJ and provides reliable feeding in my XD-9. I did 16+1 round rapid fire test and it cycled and fed flawlessly. Unfortunately this round suffered Core jacket separation in all three water jug tests, two additional tests turned out the same results. The Core expanded well, just as it was designed to do, the polymer ball certainly help create a nice wide expansion which flattened out the lead core. The jacket separated and showed signs of fragmentation, maybe it's a "feature" of the bullet I'm not sure, but it happened consistently in all tests. It penetrated the first water jug with a nice splash but failed to even dent the second. With less than 12" of penetration the recovered sample did not seem to have the weight or the drive. Poor penetration coupled with consistent Core Jacket separation in all tests makes this round a good range round but I personally would prefer something else for self defense, home defense or carry. I will, in the near future, try the Pow'RBall 125gr +P. I have a feeling the heavier grain bullet will carry more momentum for deeper penetration.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


02.) Federal Hi-Shok 115gr +P+ (9BPLE)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1300 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 430 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Federal's LE Website: Hi-Shok (9BPLE) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Fierce Expansion, It nearly turned itself inside out.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
Federal's LE Hi-Shok (9BPLE) has been issued to the Border Patrol and many law enforcement agencies for years. It's one of those "Tried, Tested & True" rounds and it certainly shows. A phenomenal round with great penetration and excellent expansion. In my testing these rounds expanded so well they nearly turned themselves inside out. The recovered samples seemed to have a "skirt" of lead covering the entire bullet. Have a look at the larger pictures (sample 2 in Base View) and you will see that the lead core peeled back further then the base of the bullet. Also notice the long cuts in the jacket to enable this type of expansion. Not much else to say, this is a top performer. I personally like this round and would use it for home protection, self defense and as a general carry round.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


03.) Federal Expanding-FMJ 105gr (PD9CSP2H)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1230 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 353 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Federal Premium Website: Expanding-FMJ (PD9CSP2H) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug but FAILED to pierced the second jug.
Expansion:
Great Expansion, quick and easy, just as it was designed to.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
This round is often underestimated, it hits the target like a freight train and with a blunt force unmatched by any of the other rounds I've tested so far, I was 7 yards away and got soaked every time. This is a ferocious hitter which delivers maximum energy on target. It's a shame they failed to pierce the second jug and hence penetration is less than 12". I know these bullets, by design, were meant to expand and push but without the minimum penetration it is left up to the individual to make the decision. Even though I really liked these little sluggers, I live in a state where hollow points are legal and given some of the other contenders available here, I'll pass.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


04.) Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr (P9HS1)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1120 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 345 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Federal Premium Website: Hydra-Shok (P9HS1) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Expanded well in the typical ugly Hydra-Shok fashion with a collapsed post.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
Your "Run of the mill" standard pressure Hydra-Shok. Muzzle velocity is rated at 1120FPS. These rounds showed good penetration in water with good expansion. I'm curious to see how they will perform in the next phase of testing where they will have to pass through four layers of denim. There has been some controversy over the "plugging up" of the hollow point cavity which considerably reduced expansion.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


05.) Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr +P+ (P9HS3G1)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1170 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 375 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Federal's LE Website: Hydra-Shok (P9HS3G1) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug but FAILED to pierced the second jug.
Expansion:
Expanded very well in the typical ugly Hydra-Shok fassion with a collapsed post.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
Should be similar to the standard pressure Hydra-Shok, right? wrong! It failed to penetrate 12" of water. This round is the same weight as the standard pressure round just loaded hotter. In all three tests it hit the first water jug hard and tore it up pretty well but failed to even dent the second. I noticed, when comparing the two 124gr bullets, that the +P+ bullet had a much shorter post. Due to the shorter post and higher velocity these rounds expand too early too wide and lack the minimum penetration. This might change when I run these rounds through some denim, who knows. As it stands now the HS +P+ lacks minimum penetration.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


06.) Federal HST 124gr JHP (P9HST1)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1150 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 365 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Federal's LE Website: HST (P9HST1) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Expanded into a star shape with sharp edges just as it was designed to, impressive.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
The HST was designed with expansion in mind and to avoid the "plugging up" issues of the past Hydra-Shoks but it didn't stop there. The bullet has a large hollow point cavity and yet functioned flawlessly in my XD-9 service. Federal's design team efforts have produced one of the finest forms of bullet design technology to date. It is marketed to Law-Enforcement and is rapidly becoming popular amongst LE agencies nationwide. It wouldn’t surprise me if Federal announces a "Civilian Version" of this very successful round sometime in the near future. In my testing the HST showed consistent expansion with great penetration every time. What's hard to see in the pictures is just how sharp the edges of the lead core surface and jacket petals really are. I personally like this round and would use it for home protection, self defense and as a general carry round.
Note: I can't wait to test out the +P loading of this great round.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


07.) Remington Golden Saber BONDED 124gr +P BJHP (GSB9MMD)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1180 FPS
Muzzle energy is rated at 383 FT/LBS

Remington Ammunition - Golden Saber Driving Band
Remington Military Products Division - Golden Saber BONDED Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Good expansion in diameter and sharp petal edges
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
I was excited to test these babies out. These BONDED rounds were designed to pass through barriers. Remington has developed a process where they hot-bond the lead core to the jacket to maintain weight retention when passing through auto-glass or similar barriers. Further to which the shape of the bullet is designed with a "Driving Band". This band is a wide base which is seated in the casing. When fired this "Driving Band" centers the bullet perfectly in the bore and it is the only surface which meets the rifling, this design helps to further lock the jacket onto the core. These bullets exhibit some of the most advanced pistol bullet technologies to date and provide near match grade accuracy. With such fierce competition like the HST's, Ranger T's and other great rounds Remington proved to be ahead of the game with this top performer. I have no doubt they will perform just as well in the denim test. This would be a good carry round where shooting through a windshield might be an issue in a car-jacking situation.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


08.) SPEER Gold Dot® 124gr GDHP (23618)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1150 FPS
Muzzle energy is rated at 364 FT/LBS

Speer Ammo Website: Gold Dot® (23618) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Expanded well, just as it was designed to. Recovered a star shape bullet exposing the Gold Dot in the center.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
The Gold Dots are another one of those "Tried, Tested & True" rounds. These shoot well, penetrate perfectly and expand in a controlled fashion into the typical Gold Dot flower exposing the little "Gold Dot" in the center of the bullet. They performed consistently without fail in all of my testing. Expansion was controlled and uniform, penetration was consistent and weight retention seemed to be near perfect. Although they are not marketed as BONDED rounds Speer uses the Uni-Cor process to achieve core jacket bonding and produce some of the best weight retention in the industry. The Gold Dot starts as an alloyed lead core, then using the Uni-Cor technology they bond the jacket to the core "one molecule at a time". Once that is done they create the memory lines for future expansion. The hollow point cavity is then finished to match weight and velocity with a smooth leading edge and uniform heel for reliable feeding and accuracy. Once the process is done the result is one of the finest pistol bullets in the market to date. The process is detailed on the Speer web site and I highly recommend you scoot on over and read up on it. This would be a good all purpose round. With the Speer Gold Dot you can enjoy the best of both worlds, great performance in a bonded package.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


09.) SPEER Gold Dot® 124gr GDHP +P (53617)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1220 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 410 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Federal's LE Website: Gold Dot® (53617) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Expanded very well, just as it was designed to. Recovered a star shape bullet exposing the Gold Dot in the center.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
Same bullet as the standard pressure Gold Dot. Unlike Federal's approach of designing two different Hydra-Shok bullets of the same weight for the different pressures, Speer seated the same bullet on both the standard pressure and the +P loaded pressure rounds. Both performed beautifully, great penetration, controlled expansion and near perfect weight retention due to the Uni-Cor process of bonding core and jacket. The +P flavor expanded a little more and the petals were peeled back further exposing the Gold Dot in the center of the bullet. This is phenomenal round with exceptional performance. I personally love this 124gr +P flavor of the Gold Dots. It's a great piece of technology with a competitive price tag. Speer has out done themselves with the Gold Dots and the +P is a shining example of good bullet design.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


10.) Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1240 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 440 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Winchester LE Website: Ranger T-Series (RA9TA) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Expanded very well, beyond what I expected. Large in diameter with very sharp "talons", very impressive.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
The Ranger T-Series is "supposed" to be the 3rd generation production of the infamous Black Talons. These rounds shoot well, penetrate perfectly and expand in a uniform and controlled manner. All tests produced consistent results with excellent performance. The Ranger T-Series feature the SXT's patented reverse taper bullet jacket and a notched hollow point design. This +P 127gr bullet expands reliably and uniformly into a frightening six petal flat headed monster. The hollow point design shows a thicker wall near the top to provide reliable expansion across a large velocity window and the thinner jacket at the heel provides for greater accuracy. This has got to be the only 127gr that I've seen expand to such a large diameter with six sharp protruding petals, have a look at the larger pictures, in particular Base View. This is by far one of the nastiest little critter I've come across and I would trust this round to perform well in stopping whatever gets in its way.
Conclusion: This is one heck of a can opener.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)

Last but not least...

11.) Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Muzzle velocity is rated at 1000 FPS (4" Barrel)
Muzzle energy is rated at 325 FT/LBS (4" Barrel)

Federal's LE Website: HST (P9HST2) Spec Sheet
Penetration:
Penetrated a 12" deep water jug, pierced the second and settled at the bottom of it.
Expansion:
Expanded into a large star shape with sharp edges just as it was designed to, very impressive.
Expanded Diameter:
This information will be updated soon.
Retained Weight:
This information will be updated soon.
Function:
Functioned flawlessly in a Springfield XD-9 Services Model with a 4" barrel.
My Personal Thoughts:
These 147gr HSTs pack a walloping punch. They are rated at 1000FPS which is subsonic at room temperature (Remember that sound travels at 331 Meters per Second only at "Freezing" which is 0C or 32F. At room temperature 21C or 70F sound travels at 344 Meters per Second which equals to 1128 Feet per Second). These rounds, as you can see in the picture expanded without any problems and penetrated over 12" of water. They drive deep and expand well into the classic HST star shape. The edges are sharp and the bullet feels solid in its expanded state. I guess they "are NOT too heavy for 9x19mm cartridge", they "DO reach proper velocity" and they "DO NOT suffer poor expansion" well not these HSTs anyways. Deep penetration coupled with massive expansion and what seems to be near perfect weight retention makes these rounds a top pick. I was very impressed with the performance of these HSTs and can say it's a top performer that should not be dismissed based on hear say. I rest assured when using these heavy weights in any situation, be it Self Defense, Home Protection or just general Carry.
- Full size photos at: Frag.110mb.com (They prohibit image linking, sorry)


I just want to state this before anyone jumps up and around:
These tests are by no means scientific, nor are they said to be so. These are just my personal fun time with differect types of ammunition and a whole bunch of water jugs.


Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:19:16 PM EST
Nice workup, you have too much time on your hands. You left out the expanded diameter. Those HSTs do look like they perform well, at least in H2O.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:20:42 PM EST
Easily the best post I've ever seen in the ammo forums.
Zhukov might just kiss you.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:23:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Easily the best post I've ever seen in the ammo forums.
Zhukov might just kiss you.

or smack me
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 2:33:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By hatt:
...You left out the expanded diameter...

I'll update more info as time goes by, I'm about to start a new job so my free fun time is on the low side. Have a look at that 127gr Ranger T, I swear, it's as wide as the 147gr HST if not wider and still went through more than 12" of water.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 6:26:15 PM EST
I can't believe you haven't been bashed yet, I guess water isn't wet newspaper.

I remember shooting some "Black Talon" .40s into water and they could have been reloaded again.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 6:48:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By hatt:
I can't believe you haven't been bashed yet, I guess water isn't wet newspaper.

I remember shooting some "Black Talon" .40s into water and they could have been reloaded again.

bashed? well I hope not. I stated clear as day that this is by no means a scientific test. I just put it up so people can see the expansion of the bullets. Each person can take my tests in any way the like. I never forced it upon anyone nor did I presume it to be scientific. It's just my fun time at the range and I did have a lot of fun doing it. It was interesting and kept me occupied
Link Posted: 2/22/2007 1:33:13 PM EST
Nice work!

Thanks for posting it
Link Posted: 2/22/2007 3:53:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2007 4:00:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2007 10:36:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Frag:

Originally Posted By hatt:
I can't believe you haven't been bashed yet, I guess water isn't wet newspaper.

I remember shooting some "Black Talon" .40s into water and they could have been reloaded again.

bashed? well I hope not. I stated clear as day that this is by no means a scientific test. I just put it up so people can see the expansion of the bullets. Each person can take my tests in any way the like. I never forced it upon anyone nor did I presume it to be scientific. It's just my fun time at the range and I did have a lot of fun doing it. It was interesting and kept me occupied


I for one would would like to thank you for doing this.

Somebody should pay you for this......seriously.

The pics alone are awesome,

Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:17:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Do you have a caliper to measure expanded diameter and a scale to measure retained weight? That would be useful data for your report.

I'm about to add some info to the web page. Just haven't had the chance to get it done yet. I'll add expanded diameter, weight etc...

Z, is there a way to measure penetration without the wet newspaper packs? I don't want to spend cash on ballistic gel as of yet. I'm still hoping there is a layman’s way of measuring where the projectile stopped. I'm open to suggestions.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:41:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:

Originally Posted By Frag:

Originally Posted By hatt:
I can't believe you haven't been bashed yet, I guess water isn't wet newspaper.

I remember shooting some "Black Talon" .40s into water and they could have been reloaded again.

bashed? well I hope not. I stated clear as day that this is by no means a scientific test. I just put it up so people can see the expansion of the bullets. Each person can take my tests in any way the like. I never forced it upon anyone nor did I presume it to be scientific. It's just my fun time at the range and I did have a lot of fun doing it. It was interesting and kept me occupied


I for one would would like to thank you for doing this.

Somebody should pay you for this......seriously.

The pics alone are awesome,


Thanks Vapor-Trail, I'm delighted you enjoyed reading and viewing the pictures. Gratitude sure does make me feel good about sharing my findings with the community. The ammo + all the 12" long water jugs did come out to a little more than I had originally budgeted for but I consider it time, money and effort well spent.

Look for Phase two - Denim testing soon
I'm also collecting .223 SoftPoints/PowerPoints for future testing.

Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:47:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 9:16:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By Frag:
Z, is there a way to measure penetration without the wet newspaper packs? I don't want to spend cash on ballistic gel as of yet. I'm still hoping there is a layman’s way of measuring where the projectile stopped. I'm open to suggestions.


No, nor should you bother with the wet newspaper packs.

Just take your experiments for what they are - something to gauge the expansion ability and a rough yardstick of penetration. There's a lot of information about tissue simulants in Duncan McPherson's book. It talks about the reason why water can model the expansion of a bullet properly, but not the penetration depth for example, as well as other factors that make a good tissue simulant.

oopss I hit the wrong button and reported this thread, sorry Z. What I ment to hit was the "Quote" not "Report"...
Thanks for link, I'll get McPherson's book and digest it. I'll keep my testing as is for now. Maybe in the future I'll get some ballistc gel.

Link Posted: 2/27/2007 12:19:39 AM EST
Adding Corbon DPX 9mm to the bunch...
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 1:47:34 AM EST
Those are some pretty pictures for sure.
Thanks for posting them and taking the time to test these rounds out.

Ya know it's a good thing that none of these rounds were designed from some sort of smart, blended metal, that only expands if it detects the heat of bodily tissue. Fancy rounds like that would have surely turned their noses up to your cheap little water jugs. They only expand for grade-A beef!
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 5:59:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 6:01:19 AM EST by Rampant_Colt]

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By Frag:
Z, is there a way to measure penetration without the wet newspaper packs? I don't want to spend cash on ballistic gel as of yet. I'm still hoping there is a layman’s way of measuring where the projectile stopped. I'm open to suggestions.


No, nor should you bother with the wet newspaper packs.

Just take your experiments for what they are - something to gauge the expansion ability and a rough yardstick of penetration. There's a lot of information about tissue simulants in Duncan McPherson's book. It talks about the reason why water can model the expansion of a bullet properly, but not the penetration depth for example, as well as other factors that make a good tissue simulant.


Those are pretty pictures but you cannot get an accurate reading of penetration depth using water jugs. Wetpack is a better method. Water is too hard as well.
I'm not satisfied with water jug test results - too erratic and inconsistent

next...
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 6:42:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 6:43:29 AM EST by Zhukov]
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 7:22:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Did you even bother to read my reply about not using wetpacks?


It's why i quoted it before.

This experiment is lacking in several key areas.

1.) penetration depth

2.) recovered bullet diameter

3.) velocity (factory specs given here)

All that is left are pretty photos. I can and have achieved the same results using wetpack except i gained knowledge of penetration depth, recovered diameter, temporary cavity, and chronographed velocity. Water testing is a flawed method of testing bullet performance.

The jury's still out on Cabela's Perma-Gel Ballistic Testing Kit.
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 7:33:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 8:38:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 8:39:30 AM EST by wlchase]
Hmmm.... I wonder if "Official" ballistics gel or hog carcasses (like the Mythbusters use) would be cheaper penetration testing media?

(seriously, tho, great post!)
Bill
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 9:12:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 10:21:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
No, you didn't gain any other knowledge except what a bullet will do in WETPACKS. Wetpacks are not an acceptable ballistic testing medium. End of story.

The Perma-Gel is also not accurate. I need to find a link to Tacticalforums.com. Dr. Roberts mentioned it's not terribly accurate as a tissue simulant.


When my wetpack tests equal penetration depth and recovered bullet diameter to calibrated gelatin 1:1, i will take the wetpack results seriously.

In all of the test i've conducted using wetpack, they have equalled the penetration depth and shadowed the results of those using gelatin.
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 10:28:48 AM EST
thanks for your time and your helpful post
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 4:41:11 PM EST
There is no accurate test medium, IMO. Just "maginally more accurate".
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 5:01:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 5:19:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 6:20:51 PM EST
Do you have plans to do any other brands? I specifically ask because I just bought some Hornady TAP FPD in .45 - but I'm curious about the performance of the bullet. I have seen some reviews, but haven't seen anything quite this great.

Very informative and interesting info, thanks for doing it!!
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 7:31:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rampant_Colt:

Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By Frag:
Z, is there a way to measure penetration without the wet newspaper packs? I don't want to spend cash on ballistic gel as of yet. I'm still hoping there is a layman’s way of measuring where the projectile stopped. I'm open to suggestions.


No, nor should you bother with the wet newspaper packs.

Just take your experiments for what they are - something to gauge the expansion ability and a rough yardstick of penetration. There's a lot of information about tissue simulants in Duncan McPherson's book. It talks about the reason why water can model the expansion of a bullet properly, but not the penetration depth for example, as well as other factors that make a good tissue simulant.


Those are pretty pictures but you cannot get an accurate reading of penetration depth using water jugs. Wetpack is a better method. Water is too hard as well.
I'm not satisfied with water jug test results - too erratic and inconsistent

next...

Rampant_Colt I didn't put up that web site for your pleasure to look at and dismiss. I put it up for the community to enjoy. Those who appreciate my time and effort have stated so already. Now if it’s your opinion that wetpacks work, well then go ahead and use them. I've been talking to people who "know what they’re talking about" and all agree that wetpacks is a flawed method. Therefore wetpacks will NOT be a part me my testing. I'm not stating that water is equal to properly calibrated ballistic gel but you should at least know that wetpacks are way off the scale when it comes to "getting close to" ballistic gel.

When you end your post with “NEXT…” I understand that you disagree with my work and want to move on. Well, if no one is holding a gun to your head, then do it… move onto something else, it’s that simple.
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 7:37:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Animal_Farm:
Those are some pretty pictures for sure.
Thanks for posting them and taking the time to test these rounds out.

Ya know it's a good thing that none of these rounds were designed from some sort of smart, blended metal, that only expands if it detects the heat of bodily tissue. Fancy rounds like that would have surely turned their noses up to your cheap little water jugs. They only expand for grade-A beef!

I'm glad you enjyed it. I know all about blended metal bullets. But come on who carry Blended Metal ammo in their carry guns



Originally Posted By wlchase:
Hmmm.... I wonder if "Official" ballistics gel or hog carcasses (like the Mythbusters use) would be cheaper penetration testing media?

(seriously, tho, great post!)
Bill

Thanks Bill, check the site soon I'm starting the denim test this week end.



Originally Posted By Angel_Feathers:
thanks for your time and your helpful post

You're very welcome. I appreciate you taking the time to come here and put up this post.
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