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Posted: 5/9/2004 11:01:07 AM EST
Ok,

Honestley what do you think about the 9mm as a defencive round? At the end of this summer I will be buying another handgun. I currently carry a Glock 23. I am planing on buying a Kimber Ultra Carry II, I love glock but those Kimbers are sweet. If I decide to stick with Glock it will be the 30 or 36, I cant help it I want a .45acp. Well back to the question I am thinking about geting a Kahr Pm-9 for the times when I Go to the beach or dress up. What do you honestly think about the 9mm will it get the job done?
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 11:14:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2004 11:17:54 AM EST by gotm4]
Bullet placement is the key. But when I carry a 9mm I carry very fast rounds I.E. the Win Ranger 127gr+P+

I prefer to carry a .45 too (I have a SIG220, G21 and G30) and I like the .357SIG too (I have a G32 and SIGPRO 2340). When I have to resort to something I can hide w/shorts and a t-shirt I usually carrying a Kahr MK9 or PM9 IWB.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 1:12:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2004 4:09:57 PM EST by mjohn3006]
I use my Ruger P89 9mm for home protection. I would not use it if I did not believe it. 115 grain Federal Hydra Shok.

Yes, I believe a 45 does a better job than 9mm. But I know that the 9mm will do the job needed. Expecially since if I have to pull the trigger on someone, I will more than likley put at least 2 shots center mass....no matter what caliber.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 1:29:36 PM EST
I vote for the G30.

The 9mm round will work fine as a defensive round. Shot placement is key with any handgun. So practice/train with what you plan on carrying. It doesn't matter what caliber you carry if you don't practice/train with your carry gun it will be worthless.

There are some good defense rounds on the market in 9mm now so it would be fine to use for defense/CCW.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 2:02:17 PM EST
like i've said before... it's not what you shoot it's what you hit. Recovery time is key . Less recoil equals less recovery time. Some would say give me more ammo and with a 9mm you can pack quite a bit into a mag and still retain some concealablity.9mm moves pretty quick and with a defensive round speed is the key to opening that hollow point up. All about your comfort level with your skill.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 4:40:49 PM EST
here are a few 9mm test results taken from a farly reliable website...

This is unquestionably the world's most popular pistol round. For this reason it has been the subject of a lot of experimentation, because 9mm ball - used by every army in the Western world - is a mediocre manstopper. Jacketed hollowpoints are a must if one wishes to rely on the 9mm as a defense round. Use ball ammo for practice only.

9mm ammunition is available in two pressure levels: standard and "+P." The latter should only be used in newer guns (made since 1985 or so), and is best used sparingly. I will deal here with only commercially available ammunition: there are specialized loads available only to law enforcement personnel. Civilians should not worry, as there are commercial loads as good or better than anything restricted to law enforcement usage.

I will now tell you the best 9mm Luger load for self-defense: it is the Cor-Bon 9mm 115 grain +P Jacketed Hollowpoint. This is the most powerful and street-proven manstopper available in this caliber. It is a high velocity (1340 fps) and high pressure round, and more effective than any load restricted to law enforcement use (such as the Federal 9BPLE).

Unfortunately, it is also likely to jam many older guns. For this reason I add a table at the end of the 9mm section discussing round suitability for different guns. Modern hollowpoints may either (a) jam, or (b) be too powerful for some older guns. This load is suitable only for First Class pistols (see table).

The best standard pressure 9mm load is the Federal 115 grain JHP (9BP). Its effectiveness and accuracy make it the world standard. Buy several boxes. Other excellent standard pressure 9mm loads are the Winchester Silvertip 115 grain (X9MMSHP), Federal 124 grain Hydra-shok (P9HS1) and Federal Nyclad 124 grain (P9BP) JHP. The Nyclad may feed better (than the metal-jacketed 9BP) in some older guns - such as Browning Hi-Powers - which is good enough reason to use it in your older pistol. It is nearly equal to the excellence of the 9BP in terminal performance.

For guns that may jam with the Cor-Bon or Federal 115 grain hollow-points, the Remington 115 grain +P JHP is a good choice (R9MM6). For older guns I would use the Remington standard pressure 115 gr. JHP (R9MM1).

Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.

German GECO "Blitz Action Trauma" or BAT 9mm rounds are a proven man-stopping design. Called the "GECO Action Safety" in Europe, this is a high velocity (1400 feet per second) lightweight (86 grain) hollow bullet that has proven itself to be reliable and successful on the street. I recommend them, but they are very tough to find. Save yourself the trouble and use good 115 grain hollowpoints like the Cor-Bon or Remington +P or Federal 9BP.

Bad 9mm Loads to avoid (and certainly NEVER carry). Numbers given:

Federal Gold Medal 9mm 147 grain JHP (9MS)
Federal Hydra-Shok 9mm 147 grain JHP (P9HS2)
Winchester 147 grain 9mm Silvertip Subsonic JHP (X9MMST147)
Winchester 147 grain 9mm Black Talon JHP (S9MM)
Winchester 147 grain 9mm Super-X Subsonic (XSUB9MM)
Remington 147 grain 9mm JHP (R9MM8)
Remington 147 grain 9mm Golden Saber JHP (GS9MMC)
Remington 140 grain 9mm JHP (R9MM7)
Remington 88 grain 9mm JHP (R9MM5) This bullet is far too light.
CCI Lawman 147 grain 9mm PHP "Plated Hollow Point" (3619)

Table Of 9mm Pistols.

(Note: just because your pistol appears in Class 3, say, doesn't mean it is unreliable: it may indeed feed hollowpoints. But you must fire at least 200 rounds of your chosen JHP carry load to determine if your pistol will feed them properly. I have placed pistols in each category according to reputation and experience. These are only meant as guidelines - your pistol may feed JHP rounds better - or worse - than this table indicates)

First Class pistols are ultra-reliable and high-quality new guns than can feed any hollowpoint and tolerate +P loads with no problems: SIG/Sauer P220 series. Czech CZ75 and CZ85. Walther P5, P5C, and P88. Heckler and Koch USP and P7 series. All Glocks. All Ruger 9mm pistols. Taurus PT-99, PT-92 and PT-92C. Steyr GB. Beretta 92 series. Browning BDM and Hi-Power (if it says "Portugal" on the slide). All Smith & Wessons with a four-digit model number (e.g. 5906, 3913, 6904, 5903) and the Smith & Wesson 900 series. Star M28, M30, M31, and all Firestars, Megastars, and Ultrastars.

Second Class pistols are high quality guns that may not feed all hollowpoints reliably. Remington 115 gr. hollowpoints are recommended for these guns: Smith & Wessons with two or three digit model numbers (e.g. 659, 39-2, 469, 59, 39). Heckler and Koch VP70 and P9S. Beretta "Brigadier" M1951 and the Egyptian copy, the Interarms "Helwan." Colt M2000 "All-American" (now discontinued, for good reason), Colt Series 70 Government Model, Series 70 Commander. Astra A-70, A-75 and A-100. AMT "On Duty." Daewoo. Bersa 'Thunder 9'. EAA Witness, and all other CZ-75 copies (e.g. Tanfoglio, Tanarmi, Springfield Armory P9). Taurus PT-908. Walther P4. Star BK, BKM, Model B and 'Super.' Browning Hi-Powers without the word "Portugal" on the slide. Llama Model 82. IMI "Jericho" and "Kareen."

Third Class pistols should generally be loaded with ball for best reliability - experiment with your gun extensively before carrying JHP: Walther P38, P4 or P1. Luger. Llama. Maverick. MKS Model JS. Intratec CAT-9, DC-9, KG-9, etc. SWD Cobray Model 11/9 and similar models. Scarab Scorpion. Kimel AP-9. Bryco Jennings Model 59. All KBI Hungarian pistols (e.g. GKK, PJ9C, P9HK and other "FEG" products). "Norinco" or "Sportarms" Chinese Tokarev pistols. Lahti. Radom. MAB P15 and Model 1950.

Link Posted: 5/9/2004 5:13:21 PM EST

Wound Ballistics Review had this to say about 147gr subsonic ammo in 1991:
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/winchester_9mm.pdf

Note this is a large pdf file and could take 10 minutes to download if you are on dialup.

Keep in mind that in modern studies 9mm penetration depth keeps increasing with all grains of bullets, even when they are expanding more and velocity is the same. I highly doubt the gel they use is to the same standards the Army used. I'll stick with 147gr bullets in my 9mm until "reliable" new tests show another bullet is superior, IF that ever happens.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:39:39 AM EST
thanks for the information. Now the big question will be which one first one of the .45's or the Kahr Pm-9.
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 2:40:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By kaotic:
I vote for the G30.
www.hunt101.com/img/095323.jpg
The 9mm round will work fine as a defensive round. Shot placement is key with any handgun. So practice/train with what you plan on carrying. It doesn't matter what caliber you carry if you don't practice/train with your carry gun it will be worthless.

There are some good defense rounds on the market in 9mm now so it would be fine to use for defense/CCW.



I love it. A caliber thread has to have some Glockaholic post a picture of his Ballistically Fingerprinted Kaboom and vote for it.
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 2:45:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Robert2011:
Wound Ballistics Review had this to say about 147gr subsonic ammo in 1991:
http://www.btammolabs.com/fackler/winchester_9mm.pdf

Note this is a large pdf file and could take 10 minutes to download if you are on dialup.

Keep in mind that in modern studies 9mm penetration depth keeps increasing with all grains of bullets, even when they are expanding more and velocity is the same. I highly doubt the gel they use is to the same standards the Army used. I'll stick with 147gr bullets in my 9mm until "reliable" new tests show another bullet is superior, IF that ever happens.



Now it is time to impart some crucial information: NEVER use 147 grain ammo in a 9mm pistol! There was a stupid fad for 147 grain hollowpoints a few years ago, and many were suckered into buying these weak, worthless and malfunction-prone rounds. I don't care what you've heard: never use any 9mm hollowpoint heavier than 125 grains. 147 grain hollowpoints often jam in many popular 9mm guns like the Browning Hi-Power, SIG, Beretta 92, S&W and Glock. Ignore the gun magazine hype and stick to what works. If you want to gamble, go to Reno. Don't gamble with your life. 147 grain ammo sucks.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:04:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 8:06:58 AM EST by darm441]

What do you honestly think about the 9mm will it get the job done?

It has been getting the job done for a long time, no reason to think it would quit now. And the 147 grain bullet in modern design has a great record of performance, such that major departments have mandated it to be carried over other design weights. There were some problems with the early 147 grain stuff, but that is very old history and has little application today.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:36:48 AM EST
better than a sharp stick and a poke in the eye
Lebrew
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