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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/24/2005 9:17:46 AM EDT
here is my question

i have a g17 with high capacity mags. i want another pistol. i am thinking either a bhp or 1911. i have shot both and like them both...but cannot afford both.

as it will be used for self defense my question is which one?

i like the idea of the 45 caliber round for its stopping power but its only a 7+1 set up.
a 9mm can hold 13 rds or more.

those extra shots could be the difference.

on the other hand our military boys are saying the 9mm is a not so good rd...is it because its just ball ammo?

what is the best 9mm round for great stopping power?

or should i go with the 45 because usually one hit and the bad guy is down?

i would be thankful for any replies
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:33:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 10:34:25 AM EDT by w4klr]
The best round for stopping power is 2 well placed shots to the chest and one to the forehead.

ETA: I'm a .45 guy. I have my HK USP in 45. So there are twelve rounds of doom for any aggressor.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:35:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By reddot223:
here is my question

i have a g17 with high capacity mags. i want another pistol. i am thinking either a bhp or 1911. i have shot both and like them both...but cannot afford both.

as it will be used for self defense my question is which one?

I like the idea of the 45 caliber round for its stopping power but its only a 7+1 set up.
a 9mm can hold 13 rds or more.

those extra shots could be the difference.

on the other hand our military boys are saying the 9mm is a not so good rd...is it because its just ball ammo?

what is the best 9mm round for great stopping power?

or should i go with the 45 because usually one hit and the bad guy is down?

i would be thankful for any replies



Carry a reload.

Nobody goes down with just one hit like they've been blown away.

If you can't shoot a .45 well and accurately, maybe something smaller is for you, otherwise, I'd suggest the largest round you can shoot well.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:51:34 AM EDT
If you need more capacity than 5 or 6 rounds, you are only causing a long term hearing loss…

I am a .45 ACP fan and don't even own a 9mm but if you like the Browning, go for it! Shoot it, enjoy it then if you change your mind, it will make a nice trade-in.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 12:48:19 PM EDT
Multiple 1911 styles are hi-cap now. Springfield Armory, Para Ordnance, etc. all make them as well as others.

Unless you're married to the 1911 only for a .45acp, I would suggest H&K, Glock 21, etc.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 1:34:58 PM EDT
"Stopping Power" in a handgun is largely a myth. Without the velocities obtainable in a rifle, the likelihood of incapacitating your opponent is dependent on major circulatory hit (e.g., pericaridal sac) or central nervous system. Barring that, within reason 9mm vs. .45 doesn't matter much.

As a kid, I went to a murder trial as part of a civics class. BG nailed the victim with a .32 Colt Long: punched into the chest, took a modest left turn and severed the aorta. Never even rolled over. If you could do that every time, carry a PPK in .32 ACP. But many, many perps, good guys, and bystanders have survived a .45 hit -- even fought or run away after having been hit. Placement (and sufficient penetration to get to the objective) is EVERYTHING with a handgun.

If you carry one of the top 9mm loads (e.g., Ranger 147 or Gold Dot 147) in your G17, verified that the piece feeds reliably, and shoot it very well, you are just as able to defend life, loved ones and property as you are with any handgun. Might the Gold Dot 230's in .45 be better? A little bit larger permanant crush cavity, a bit more penetration -- but if you're familiar with the G17, can present it quickly and put rounds into a small target consistently, you don't need to spend the dough and familiarization time on the .45.

If you are in a dead nuts serious situation and can have a long gun instead, by all means have your AK (Lapua or Win soft points), AR (BH 77, TAP 75 gr, M855 or XM193), or 12 ga (any good 00 load) available. Handguns are fun and I love 'em but they're second choice over the long gun always for defense.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 1:52:53 PM EDT
Shot placement is worth more than anything. The problems the US military is having with the 9mm round is directly related to the fact that we are limited to FMJ. Any good hollowpoint will cause enough pain and suffering to persuade someone to look elsewhere for employment. since you already have a high cap 9mm, I would go with a single stack 1911. Everybody speaks .45.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 2:18:31 PM EDT
try a search--this has been argued over and over and over and over and over and over.........

i too say go w/ a .45acp

h/w quality 9mm JHP is just as effective as a .45acp, only it makes smaller holes

personally, i'd get the 1911--hard to beat a good .45 in a fight

Link Posted: 9/24/2005 2:35:36 PM EDT
I know that everyone has their own opinion as to what you should do, but allow me to offer mine. Recently, I made to decision to trade my Taurus PT140SSP Millineum PRO (.40S&W) for a G30 (.45ACP) to be my CCW. I already have a G21, but it is to cumbersome for concealed carry. The reason I traded is that I prefer the stopping power of the .45 ACP as opposed to a 9mm and .40 S&W. I use Federal 230 gr. JHP HYDRA-SHOK ammo for defense purposes. I also have Hornady 200 gr. JHP/XTP ammo as a secondary source. I am confident that with my choice of caliber and ammo, there will be no doubt as to the stopping power of a single round. Should I need it, I have nine more rounds at my disposal. The G21 and G30 utilize 10 rd. magazines. You can also find a hi-cap 13 rd. mag for the G21. Additionally, I have owned a 1911 based handgun before and I like my Glocks better. Since you already own a G17 (9mm), you could probably adjust to the G21 fairly easily. That is my opinion. Thanks for listening.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:48:49 PM EDT
Using quality HP 9mm or .45 ACP you should get similar results. (both good)

In case of FMJ (forgetting about the argument of FMJ for self defense for a moment) .45 ACP is better.

That said the only pistol I own is 1911 in .45 ACP.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:57:00 PM EDT
Practice ammo for the 9mm is $70 sumpthin and change at Academy. You can't reload a 45 for that. A glock 19 to me about the best compromise for size and capacity in 9mm. A High Power doesn't work for me unless it's modified. Good 1911's are as good as it gets but there is nothing wrong with a G17 either.

Hope I cleared that up for ya.

Short answer. Get or keep the gun that you can afford to shoot and shoot it. Compete with it and dry fire the heck out of it. Your ability to put the bullets where you want is far more important than the difference in the calibers you have selected.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:25:10 PM EDT
No arguements with any of the above, shot placement is the key no matter what caliber you're using (and practice is the key to that).
That said, I've only owned .45's, .40's, and .38/.357's. While the advances in bullet design can enable a 9mm to be as lethal as any other handgun round, I like the .45 for the fact that it has been a proven round in FMJ, and if you plug the cavity of a hollow point round with material- leather, denim, drywall, etc.- then you have basically got a non-expanding round.
Like the old guy said, "A nine may expand, but a forty-five never shrinks".

PS. My wife, who's 5' tall and has trouble staying on the ground in a high wind, shoots my Springfield Compact LW better than any of my other guns, even the .38's with target wadcutter loads. YMMV
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:07:04 PM EDT
I agree with the crowd...shot placement overrules any caliber choice you can make. That being said get the gun you like the feel of and are comfortable with and shoot it a lot. Your self defense pistol needs to feel like an extension of your arm, not clumsy or foreign. I also agree with the guy who said only use the pistola as a second choice...my first choice is a 12ga with 00buckshot. Not even a full auto pistol can put 9 .30 cal rounds out as fast as the scattergun can.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 10:36:52 PM EDT
I wouldnt hesitate to reach for either in a gun fight....I own both
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:47:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 9:49:26 AM EDT by Arch-angel]

Originally Posted By simonsay:
Practice ammo for the 9mm is $70 sumpthin and change at Academy. You can't reload a 45 for that. A glock 19 to me about the best compromise for size and capacity in 9mm. A High Power doesn't work for me unless it's modified. Good 1911's are as good as it gets but there is nothing wrong with a G17 either.

Hope I cleared that up for ya.

Short answer. Get or keep the gun that you can afford to shoot and shoot it. Compete with it and dry fire the heck out of it. Your ability to put the bullets where you want is far more important than the difference in the calibers you have selected.



I was talking to an officer the day and he was attending a class at gunsite and was intrugied by a question asked by one of the fellow students, " what is the best caliber that I should use?" the instructor replied only a .45ACP it is guarenteed to stop the assailent in his tracks, anything less just won't do! then to the suprise of the instructor another question came flying in from left field, " so how many people have you shot? the instructor replied wiht some reservation none. Then the person asking the question said, well I have shot plenty with a 9MM and it did the job, it's all about shot placement he said and that ended the discussion.

In summary, get what fits you and you feel comfortable with and practice, practice
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:22:49 AM EDT
"One shot, one kill" usually refers to a well-placed shot, either at the heart or brain, and usually with a high-caliber rifle round. Nothing wrong with a 9mm, when loaded with some good hp rounds.

I have two Para-Ord 45s (Tac-Four and P12). I prefer these to my duty weapon, a Glock 22. The Glock is a good gun, I just happen to shoot better with my Para-Ords.

Carry whatever you feel most comfortable with and shoot better with. If you need more ammo, just carry a few extra mags.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:23:42 PM EDT
In these discussions, people saying caliber doesn't matter usually make two contradictory statements:

1) It's all about shot placement, a 9mm will stop someone just as well as .45
2) Oh but make sure to use quality hollow points in 9mm, FMJ won't do very good

Well? If it's *ALL* about shot placement, why would the actual bullet construction make any lick of difference? If you can argue there is no discernable difference between 9 and .45 then you could just as easily argue there being no difference between FMJ and JHP.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:29:04 PM EDT
Ballistically, there is very little difference between the defensive calibers. I chose .45 ACP because I shoot it better than the others. I can't shoot 9mm worth a damn. I took a friend of mine to the range one day. She was shooting a Sig 230 in .32 ACP and I was shooting my Glock 21 in .45 ACP. She had very little shooting experience and wasn't shooting the Sig very well at all. She tried my Glock and kept all the shots in the head at 7 yds.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:34:12 PM EDT
FMJ suffers from over penetration and dosen't cause all that much internal damage as it passes through. If you are lucky enough to get a head or spinal shot then it really dosen't matter. Hollow points are designed to stop after @ 12"-18" of penetration because the more tissue you can damage, the more shock and incapacitation you can cause. It also cuts down on rounds exiting the bad guy and hitting innocents.


Originally Posted By SNorman:
In these discussions, people saying caliber doesn't matter usually make two contradictory statements:

1) It's all about shot placement, a 9mm will stop someone just as well as .45
2) Oh but make sure to use quality hollow points in 9mm, FMJ won't do very good

Well? If it's *ALL* about shot placement, why would the actual bullet construction make any lick of difference? If you can argue there is no discernable difference between 9 and .45 then you could just as easily argue there being no difference between FMJ and JHP.


Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:28:28 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:28:58 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:29:30 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:30:02 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:30:38 PM EDT
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Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:45:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arch-angel:

Originally Posted By simonsay:
Practice ammo for the 9mm is $70 sumpthin and change at Academy. You can't reload a 45 for that. A glock 19 to me about the best compromise for size and capacity in 9mm. A High Power doesn't work for me unless it's modified. Good 1911's are as good as it gets but there is nothing wrong with a G17 either.

Hope I cleared that up for ya.

Short answer. Get or keep the gun that you can afford to shoot and shoot it. Compete with it and dry fire the heck out of it. Your ability to put the bullets where you want is far more important than the difference in the calibers you have selected.



I was talking to an officer the day and he was attending a class at gunsite and was intrugied by a question asked by one of the fellow students, " what is the best caliber that I should use?" the instructor replied only a .45ACP it is guarenteed to stop the assailent in his tracks, anything less just won't do! then to the suprise of the instructor another question came flying in from left field, " so how many people have you shot? the instructor replied wiht some reservation none. Then the person asking the question said, well I have shot plenty with a 9MM and it did the job, it's all about shot placement he said and that ended the discussion.

In summary, get what fits you and you feel comfortable with and practice, practice


What was the instructors name? That is very much out of character for a Gunsite instructor. Most carry .45s, but I know of several who also carry 9s, sub caliber backups or 10mms.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:

Originally Posted By SNorman:
In these discussions, people saying caliber doesn't matter usually make two contradictory statements:

1) It's all about shot placement, a 9mm will stop someone just as well as .45
2) Oh but make sure to use quality hollow points in 9mm, FMJ won't do very good

Well? If it's *ALL* about shot placement, why would the actual bullet construction make any lick of difference? If you can argue there is no discernable difference between 9 and .45 then you could just as easily argue there being no difference between FMJ and JHP.




FMJ suffers from over penetration and dosen't cause all that much internal damage as it passes through. If you are lucky enough to get a head or spinal shot then it really dosen't matter. Hollow points are designed to stop after @ 12"-18" of penetration because the more tissue you can damage, the more shock and incapacitation you can cause. It also cuts down on rounds exiting the bad guy and hitting innocents.



IF THAT IS TRUE a larger diameter caliber would always be better. It's either all "shot placement" or it's not. An argument can't be made for either "it's shot placement 100%" or "it's caliber, 100%".
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 4:18:01 AM EDT
Caliber and bullet choices are made for political as well as scientific reasons. NYPD used to carry a .38 flat nosed lead round. Why? Because it tended to not ricochet once they struck something hard and they didn't over penitrate. Why .38? Because .357 wasn't PC. Detroit PD carrier EFMJ because hollow points are verbotin. In real life it's never 100% this or 100% that because you can't control the variables. Ignoring the known physics of FMJ vs hollow points and trying to pin it down to one factor is ignoring the fact that bad guy gets a vote. If you gave me the choice between .45 FMJ and 9mm hollow points, I'd take the 9mm in that case because of the bullet. One shot stops are not something I'm willing to bet my life on. It's two to the chest and one to the head.


Originally Posted By SNorman:

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:



FMJ suffers from over penetration and dosen't cause all that much internal damage as it passes through. If you are lucky enough to get a head or spinal shot then it really dosen't matter. Hollow points are designed to stop after @ 12"-18" of penetration because the more tissue you can damage, the more shock and incapacitation you can cause. It also cuts down on rounds exiting the bad guy and hitting innocents.



IF THAT IS TRUE a larger diameter caliber would always be better. It's either all "shot placement" or it's not. An argument can't be made for either "it's shot placement 100%" or "it's caliber, 100%".
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 4:43:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By reddot223:
here is my question

i have a g17 with high capacity mags. i want another pistol. i am thinking either a bhp or 1911. i have shot both and like them both...but cannot afford both.

as it will be used for self defense my question is which one?

i like the idea of the 45 caliber round for its stopping power but its only a 7+1 set up.
a 9mm can hold 13 rds or more.

those extra shots could be the difference.

on the other hand our military boys are saying the 9mm is a not so good rd...is it because its just ball ammo?

what is the best 9mm round for great stopping power?

or should i go with the 45 because usually one hit and the bad guy is down?

i would be thankful for any replies



Based on the information in your post I would handle a few different 45 models from your local FFL and choose one to your liking. I think you're due for a 45 cause you already have a 9mm. I also think your choice will be most limited by your intentions to carry or not carry this gun concealed.

But definately go with a 45. I too own a Glock 17, and shoot it well. But I adore my 1911, and fully intend to purchase a Glock 21 by Christmas.

Owning a 45 handgun is one thing, owning one you can comfortably carry and use effectively...is another.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 4:46:00 AM EDT
All this crap about the .45 being the "man stopper" and the 9mm being weak is just plain old BS. I posted this in another thread but I will post it here as well. This is real world usage by a security contractor in Iraq, not some hypothetical analysis or gelatin test...

From In The Shooting Gallery: Security Contractor in Iraq

"Many disparage the 9mm’s stopping power, and knowing that only military “ball” ammunition was available, I asked if this had been a problem. Spook said that it hadn’t. He knows what some of the gun magazine chest-beaters claim in print, and admits that he hasn’t shot any blocks of ballistic gelatin. He has shot eight men with the nine, though, and all went down with center thorax hits. One or two shots sufficed, if well placed. Spook knows that others have complained about the nine, and wonders where they hit their opponents. He has talked with a couple of tank crewmen who shot Iraqis off their huge armored mounts, and they seemed satisfied, too. The Browning worked fine, and so did the Beretta M9 that he wore in 2003, provided that one used only genuine Beretta magazines. Cheap spare magazines from other manufacturers might fail."

It's all about shot placement PERIOD!

As far as your decision between a Hi-Power or a 1911 - Get both if you can but if not, get the HP now because CDNN has genuine NIB FN HP MKIII for $399 + $10 shipping. This is an awesome deal and not one you are likely to find again anytime soon.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 7:58:44 PM EDT by catman]
.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:43:34 PM EDT
who remembers the formula for calculating "stopping power" ? i slept through that day of physics class. christ these threads get old
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 8:49:14 PM EDT
nothing has more stopping power than the sound of the 'racking' or a pump shotgun!



Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:51:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Shot placement is worth more than anything. The problems the US military is having with the 9mm round is directly related to the fact that we are limited to FMJ. Any good hollowpoint will cause enough pain and suffering to persuade someone to look elsewhere for employment. since you already have a high cap 9mm, I would go with a single stack 1911. Everybody speaks .45.



+1 g-17 and a good 1911. Two of the best handguns ever made.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:59:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 12:02:34 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
9mm *might*expand, a .45 will never shrink.

That said, they're both good choices. I can see a BHP in my future, I've always liked them. Be forewarned though, a 1911 is an addictive platform. You may not be happy with just one. They tend to multiply and that can get awfully expensive.

If going with a 1911 look at a SA GI model or Milspec, good entry level guns and should be reliable right from the box with JHPs or ball. If you get a lemon SA will make it right.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 5:31:31 AM EDT
The instructor who gave the shotgun training when I was in MP school was a reservist. His 'real' job was a Baltimore MD PD. He said that he has had suspects surrender after hearing the slide rack on his 12 gauge. Good stuff.


Originally Posted By niceguymr:
nothing has more stopping power than the sound of the 'racking' or a pump shotgun!




Link Posted: 9/27/2005 1:20:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
The instructor who gave the shotgun training when I was in MP school was a reservist. His 'real' job was a Baltimore MD PD. He said that he has had suspects surrender after hearing the slide rack on his 12 gauge. Good stuff.


Originally Posted By niceguymr:
nothing has more stopping power than the sound of the 'racking' or a pump shotgun!







Definitely a useful plus, but just because I'm paranoid like that, I'd be sure there was some OO in the tube just in case the BG didn't get the memo about crapping his pants at slide-rack.

As for 9mm vs .45, it's purely down to what you can shoot well. When things go bump I reach for a 1911, but that's because of the gun itself (and my ability with it) rather than the size pill it throws.

Both the HP and the 1911 have far different ergonomics from your G17. I find that swapping grip angles like that makes a mess of patterns at the range. For that reason alone, I might go with a .45ACP glock, though I find them unwieldy and FAR too wide in the slide.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 3:53:20 AM EDT
As a .45 guy I'm partial to the bigger bullet theory.

However if you place 2-3 rds center mass with a 9mm, 38spl, .40, or .45 I believe the results will be similar.
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