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Link Posted: 1/15/2021 12:03:01 PM EST
Good read!
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 12:58:22 PM EST
Thank You for that sharing of your experiences with the various pistols over your years of service.

I found many of the same trends & experiences over the past 30 years too.

Not a cop, but the trends in law enforcement definitely influence what 'trickles down' to us Plebeians.

9mm = Wondergun.  9mm now 'sucks' so you need a 10mm or .40 S&W.  9mm isn't so bad, so ditch those .40s & back to 9mms.  

I did the Beretta 92 for a while (Lethal Weapon, Die Hard & Of course "Military Issue").

Shame you didn't get to try a 5903 (3rd Gen Smith & Wesson SA/DA 9mm Auto with the Alloy frame).  MUCH less HEAVY to carry all day than the Stainless framed "Hammers" like the 5906 or 4506.    

I still tote S&W's - M&P Shield for work, M&P 2.0 Compact is my perfect gun (night sights) & occasionally tote my "vintage" 5904 just because it just fits & shoots so well with me.

Thank You for taking the time
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 3:45:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By bub75:
I've been taking a break from the Internet for a while, but with the cold, crappy weather, I'm bored and back. 2021 is my 30th year in LE. I started as a bright-eyed, naive newbie back in 1991. I worked part time until 2002 and have been full time ever since. TONS of life changes, but I'm still in LE. My agency permits personally owned firearms (well, except for a short time a few years ago), so there have been quite a few. The sheer number of off duty guns I have carried can boggle the mind, but I will start another thread about them, probably in a few days.

Some of the pics are mine, some are not. The ones that are not mine were just grabbed from a Google search. I will note that they aren't mine, but because I saved the pics on my comp some time ago, I cannot give proper attributes.

When I went to the Academy, it was put on by a local PD and we had class in the High School in their City. Range days were at their range, but building search classes were at the School, included CAREFULLY CHECKED unloaded guns. Quite a change from then to now, when the School admins would have a stroke at the mere thought.

Way back then, the Internet didn't exist, for normal people anyway. What was a bright eyed young gun nut to do to figure out what gun he wanted to carry? Why, he broke out all of the back issues of Guns and Ammo magazine that he had bought over the years and went to work. Since the PD didn't (and still doesn't) allow SAO handguns (Colonel Cooper definitely wouldn't approve), and since Glocks were just throwaway plastic garbage (not really, but that was the opinion of a lot of writers then), you have DA/SA autos. A bewildering variety of DA/SA autos.

Per G&A at the time, Sig was robbed of the US Military handgun contract because Italy would allow the US to station cruise missiles in return for adopting the Beretta. The Beretta wasn't a bad gun, but the P226 was the pinnacle of combat handgun development (hey, everyone knows the Germans make great stuff, right?!?!). Since I was destined to be a steely-eyed gunfighter, the P226 it was.

Duty sidearm #1, a West German SIG Sauer P226
https://i.imgur.com/TeVMxFr.jpg
Not my pic, unknown source, saved on my comp; this one has newer grips, mine had old style

At the time, the hardware store my parents owned had an FFL, so I ordered it and paid wholesale prices. Even at wholesale, and even that long ago, it was $650 or so. As a naive newbie opening the box on my first handgun, I was in awe. It glistened with a coat of thick oil and was absolutely beautiful. My first range trip revealed that it was reliable and very accurate. It also fit my hand VERY well. When I went through the academy, they hadn't seen a student come through with a P226 yet, since most agencies issued handguns and none nearby issued the P226. At the first range day, the instructors spent the first couple of breaks fondling and shooting it (with my permission), and all loved it. I tied the all time high score for the scenario on the last day (and that included all of the guys at that PD, as well as all their academy classes) and got a separate award at graduation for that feat. I carried it for my first couple of years at the PD with few issues, then the real trouble started.

From day 1, I had some corrosion issues. Even over the course of a 10 hour shift on a normal day with no rain or anything, the slide would start to surface rust, just sitting in the holster. That soon moved on to all steel parts rusting very fast. It got to the point that I would have to unload and wipe down halfway through my shift just to keep it from rusting. If I got rained on, I had to wipe it down, then thoroughly clean when I got home. After a couple of years, it started malfunctioning quite a bit. Fail to feed, fail to extract, fail to eject, you name it, it did it. Back in those days, if something happened to your gun, you called the manufacturer. I called Sig to see what was up. The VERY rude woman I spoke to demanded to know what I had done to THEIR gun. I told her just shot it and carried it. She told me that I had done something to it, that their guns didn't do that. She refused to do anything about it and told me that I was on my own since I had obviously done something to it, then hung up on me. The search began for a new duty gun and I haven't owned a Sig since.

I hadn't heard about the Miami FBI shootout till I started working. My PD issued Winchester Silvertips, just like the bullets that failed to stop Platt and Maddox (not really, but that was the narrative at first). We couldn't have that! I decided that I wanted a .45, since Dept policy allowed .45. In those days, your only real choices for a good combat .45 were the 1911 (forbidden by policy), S&W 4506 (an all stainless boat anchor) and the Sig P220 (I already had a Sig and hated the CS). Right about that time, Glock announced the Glock 21. I was hesitant because Glocks were plastic junk, but it was also high capacity, almost as high as my P226. So, I went to a gun show right after they were released and got to fondle one. It felt pretty good and seemed to be decent quality, so I bought one. I paid full price, and then some, since they were brand new and hard to get (I think I got the last one at that whole show). IIRC, I paid $575, even back then.

Duty sidearm #2, Glock 21
https://i.imgur.com/xAUGN0N.jpg
My pic, my gun

This is a very early, 2nd Gen G21, serial number AEVxxx. Either the very first batch or batch #2 that were imported, per Glock. After I got it and actually started shooting it, I loved it. Accurate and reliable. Even though it is a BIG gun, I have big hands and it also fit me well. By the time I semi-retired it, it had over 50,000 rds through it with no malfunctions that weren't ammunition problems, like poorly sized cases when I started reloading pistol ammo. I carried this pistol for 18 years, with only a couple of breaks, detailed below. It always worked and never rusted or corroded, even after being caught out in downpours several times, falling om ice and having the holster and gun packed with snow, etc.. Mags were cheap and readily available, at first, anyway. I carried it through a lot of bad stuff and felt very well protected by it. I carried it to firearms instructor training in the mid '90's and got perfect scores every time I shot the qual course, the only one in my class to do so.

On a side note, not long after I got it, the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban happened. I had purchased enough mags to probably last me the rest of my life, so I was set. Fast forward to 2000. I was married and my wife was pregnant with our first child. She almost miscarried twice and was deemed high risk and taken off of work and put on strict bed rest for the last 5 months of the pregnancy. We quickly fell behind in bills and everything else because she couldn't work. Hell, there were days that I ate nothing but plain, white rice so she could have good food. I sold quite a few pre-ban G21 mags for $100 each and kept a roof over our heads and at least some food in the kitchen.

Not long after I started carrying the G21, Glock announced upgrades to their pistols. 9mm guns had to have the infamous "6 part upgrade" that could be installed by an armorer, G21s had to go back to Glock to have the slide milled in a couple of places. If you wanted an issued duty sidearm, PD issue at the time was a S&W 6906. My G21 had to go back to Glock for the upgrade, so we move on to sidearm #3.

Duty sidearm #3, S&W 5906
https://i.imgur.com/yglwb2o.jpg
Not my pic, unknown source

Since my G21 wasn't going to be gone for long, I was given a S&W 5906 to carry till it came back. When I got it, the pistol was absolutely DISGUSTING! It had powder residue and other filth absolutely CAKED all over the inside. It was also bone dry. It wasn't supposed to have been issued for several years, so the firearms instructor started doing some digging and asking some questions. It turns out that one of the Sergeants, who also had an issued 5906, was doing bad things. When we had range days and qualifications, he would get this gun out of the safe to shoot so that he wouldn't have to get his gun dirty. When the range day was done, he put this one back in the safe and holstered his issued gun again. He hadn't shot his actual issued gun for YEARS! The ammo in his issued gun was green and tarnished, even with the nickle plated cases Winchester used for the then-premium Silvertip ammunition and, when actually taken to the range, the gun choked because of the ammunition. Much yelling and bitching ensued, as did a disciplinary write up and a Dept policy update saying that you had to actually qualify with the individual gun you were carrying and serial number checks to verify.

Amazingly, I took the 5906 out and shot it before cleaning because I was curious. The trigger was heavy and crunchy because of all the crap and being bone dry, but it worked, and worked flawlessly. After a GOOD clean and lube, the trigger was actually pretty good. The DA was long, but smooth and not too heavy. The SA had some take up, but was relatively light and crisp after the take up. I was suitably impressed. The downside was, because of the solid stainless steel frame, it was a boat anchor. That worked well when shooting, though. The gun felt like shooting a .22 because of the weight. It was very easy to shoot fast and accurately. I carried the 5906 for 5 or 6 weeks till my G21 came back, then put it back in the safe and went on with life.

A couple of years after this, I rolled a 4 wheeler and didn't bail in time, so it rolled over onto me. I suffered a lower back injury, which still causes occasional problems to this day. Because of this, I started looking for something smaller and lighter than the G21 to ease the load on an already overloaded duty belt. I LOVED the G21, it was just too big and heavy and was causing back pain if I had to be on my feet for a while. Most of the guys at the PD were buying brand new G22s from a distributor. One of then already owned an older, 2nd Gen G23. I thought that the G23 would be a good option since it was both smaller and lighter than the G21 and would maintain ammo and mag compatibility with everyone else, so I worked it out with him to buy his G23 for what he would have gotten for trade in, $225 IIRC. He got a new G22, I got his old G23.

Duty sidearm #4, Glock 23
https://i.imgur.com/YhMw2Yt.jpg
Not my pic, unknown source

The Internet was a thing by now, but I didn't have a computer, so I really didn't have access to it. If I had, I probably wouldn't have bought this pistol. When Glock introduced the G22, then the G23, they modified 9mm guns to feed .40 by hogging out the feed ramp on the barrel, leading to LARGE amounts of unsupported case at the feed ramp on early guns, like this one. The first time I got to shoot this pistol was at the qualification day. It started out well. The recoil was a little stout, but not uncontrollable or anything, just more stout than my G21. It was also VERY accurate. The problem came at the end of the day. We had some ammo left (all factory Federal ammo) and were shooting so that everyone could get used to their new guns. I was shooting and, about halfway through a mag, it happened. I was shooting, and BOOM, gun blew the fuck up! The magazine was violently ejected, extractor was blown out, gas went everywhere, my trigger finger was sore and had a minor powder burn and I was covered with brass flakes. Examination revealed that the case head had separated. We found the case head on the ground right under the gun and the rest of the case still in the chamber, with a LARGE bulge and cracked brass flowing down into the unsupported feed ramp. Keep in mind, this is FACTORY ammo. I used the computer at the Station and did some research and learned about the unsupported feed ramp issue. I was FAR from the first person this had happened to, even with factory ammo. Glock refused to do anything about it, saying it was an ammo issue. Federal stepped up and paid for shipping to Glock, all repairs and return shipping.

After getting it back, shooting for function check and finding out it was bulging factory brass to some degree with EVERY SHOT, I didn't want to carry it anymore. We had already had qualifications for that year, though, and the instructor wasn't willing to take me back out with my G21, so I was stuck till the next qualification day. I tried reloading for the G23 so I could at least practice and didn't have much luck. The unsupported area at the feed ramp was so huge that in order to keep the brass from bulging, I had to download the ammo so much that it then wouldn't cycle reliably. Since I was stuck, I carried it till the next qualification day, then qualified with my G21 and carried it for quite a few more years, back pain and all. The G21 continued working flawlessly.

Fast forward to about 7 years ago. I had bought a Glock 19 and was going to finally retire my G21 for the G19 at qualifications. Then, our Chief unexpectedly retired. The new Chief decided that we would carry issued sidearms, no choice given. Despite my protests (you'd think the advice of the firearms instructor would carry some weight, but no, it didn't), he decided the new duty sidearm would be a G22.

Duty sidearm #5, 4th Gen G22
https://i.imgur.com/q4EIEym.jpg
Not my pic, source unknown

Starting with the full timers, we bought and qualified with Gen4 G22s. That was as far as it ever went, though. Turns out, about 5 or 6 months after out new Chief was hired, our City Manager was fired and our Chief was hired as City Manager. Our former Sergeant was then promoted to Chief and he reinstated the policy that we could carry privately owned guns, so for me the G22 only lasted 1 year. As much as I absolutely despise .40 and the guns chambered for it after my G23 experience, I will say, the G22s were good guns. Glock fixed the excessive unsupported case heads on the .40 guns and they are about average now for that issue. These guns were VERY accurate, possibly the most accurate service-style gun I have ever shot. It seemed that all you had to do was point the gun in the general direction of the target and you would hit it. They are also very reliable and we have never had any issues with them. I just HATE .40, so when I had the chance, I jumped and qualified with the G19 I had bought right before we went to G22s.

Duty sidearm #6, 3rd Gen G19
https://i.imgur.com/W8JJ4hP.jpg
My pic

Even though Gen4 guns had been out a while, I went with 3rd Gen because of reports of "brass to face" with then-current Gen4 9mm guns. As luck would have it, right after I bought my 3rd Gen, "BTF" also started with them, and mine had it. I called Glock and, after an argument with the Tech, he sent me an updated ejector, which cured my issue. When Glock finally approved the "-" connector with the NY1 trigger spring for duty use, I installed them on this G19 and love the combo. The trigger is a little heavier than stock, but is much more crisp. Trigger reset is also lightning fast. I also installed Ameriglo I-Dot Pro night sights and carried it for a couple of years. It is a G19. Needless to say, it was accurate and reliable and I never had any issues with it.

My experience with Glock's CS when I called about the "BTF" issue on my G19 turned me off to Glocks for good. Every time I have had to use Glock's CS, it has been a bad experience, so I started looking again. I couldn't find anything that I liked better than the G19, though. Soon enough, S&W released the M&P 2.0 guns. I had LOVED the way the 1.0 guns fit my hand, but hated the triggers. Mushy, crunchy and unpredictable. The first time I tried a 2.0 trigger, I was sold and bought one.

Duty sidearm #7, S&W M&P 2.0 9mm
https://i.imgur.com/yqTYNsg.jpg
My pic

I LOVE this gun like I haven't loved anything since my G21! With the "Med" back strap, it fits my hands like a glove, the trigger is very good and it is very accurate. Aside from some issues with some very old range pickup brass of unknown origin that I reloaded, no malfs or anything at all, although I only have a few thousand rds through it. I have let several others shoot it and all have loved it more than their Glocks, although they aren't "gun guys" and won't buy one when the PD will give them a Glock.

The only issue I have ever had with it was, sadly enough, also one of the selling points, the grip texture. When purchased, I LOVED the texture. I'm convinced that this gun WOULD NOT have moved in the hand whether you were muddy, bloody, wet, cold whatever. Unfortunately, when I qualified with it and started carrying it, the VERY aggressive texture started shredding polyester duty shirts, car seats and jacket sleeves. I had to lightly sand the grip to tone the texture down a little to keep it from shredding anything it touched. It is still somewhat aggressive, but now it doesn't try to eat anything that touches it. My off duty gun since they came out and were hard to find has been a S&W 9mm Shield, and the M&P complements it very well. Since the PD still forbids SAO and I can't carry a 1911, I think the M&P will be on my side till retirement in 2027. I finally found my happy place.

Sorry for the novel, but you were warned in the thread title. Enjoy.
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great post, thank you

love these kinds of posts and threads, thank you for your service
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 5:09:45 PM EST
Nice thank you... Maybe its just me me but I would obscure those serial numbers...
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 5:25:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Robertesq1:
Nice thank you... Maybe its just me me but I would obscure those serial numbers...
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Not really worried about it, myself. I have paperwork for all of them in the event that someone tries any funny business.
Link Posted: 1/17/2021 12:29:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 9:32:37 PM EST by veeklog]
Twenty-two years Fed LEO (6C): .

(1) Beretta 96D Brigadeer-had four issued to me by first agency because the “Italian Tomahawk” kept breaking except for the 1995 models
(2) Sig 229 .40 Cal DAO: personally owed Gun because of the issue with my Beretta; carried it for three years, still have it sitting in my safe
(3) Glock 19 Gen 3-went to Glock in 2002 when I transferred agencies. Carried the same Glock until they made us turn it in 2008 for the shitty Sig 229 .40 Cal DAK
(4) S&W Model 60 .38 special-first issued backup gun, ran awesome. Turned it in 2004 when we were allowed to buy our own Glock 26’s.
(5) Glock 26 Gen 3-bought it in 2004 when my agency finally allowed us to buy our own guns. Some G/S, U/C’s, and SSA’s were issued the Glock 26,  but  since the agency didn’t buy enough, we were issued S&W revolvers. I have carried the same Glock since 2004, and after shooting several  thousand rounds of duty ammo, the only thing changed was a set of night sights, firing pin, and spring by the factory in 2019.
(6) Sig 229 .40 Cal DAK-the worst duty weapon I was ever issued. Hated the trigger and was heavy boat anchor when sitting on surveillance. Fine in a  duty holster, but awful gun period. Was glad to turn it in 2012
(7) Glock 17 Gen 4-my agency finally admitted they made a huge mistake getting rid of the Glock 19’s and going to Sig 229 DAK, but didn’t want to   admit it. So in turn they allowed us to buy the Glock 17’s. Gun shot great, reliable, but too big for plain clothes. Only used it during enforcement    ops, but still shot perfect scores with it. Still sits in my safe
(8) Glock 19 Gen 4-my current primary gun, and the agency finally allowed us to go back to Glock 19’s in 2016. IMHO this is the perfect duty gun,  Reliable, and just works. Both of my duty guns, my Glock 19 Gen 4 and Glock 26 Gen 3, are personally owned guns. I could have taken both guns off my property card and get the Sig 320 and 365 for backup, but will stay with Glock till I am eligible to retire in 3 years. I have a ton of magazines and gear for both guns, and the Glocks just plain work.
Link Posted: 1/18/2021 11:47:59 PM EST
I enjoyed the read. Thanks
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 7:39:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:

9mm = Wondergun.  9mm now 'sucks' so you need a 10mm or .40 S&W.  9mm isn't so bad, so ditch those .40s & back to 9mms.
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Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:

9mm = Wondergun.  9mm now 'sucks' so you need a 10mm or .40 S&W.  9mm isn't so bad, so ditch those .40s & back to 9mms.


To be fair, 9mm commercial load development was not too good in the late 1980s, early 1990s. That was a good reason for many people to switch over to a .40 caliber. 10mm wasn't much of an option back then to be honest. Only three real models in that caliber: S&W, Colt Delta Elite & Glock 20.

9mm is light years ahead of where it used to be, so why not gain back the capacity you gave away in a .40? 



I did the Beretta 92 for a while (Lethal Weapon, Die Hard & Of course "Military Issue").


If I had to select a duty gun for open carry these days, it'd still be either a Beretta or a CZ. Both are much more accurate than anything S&W is making, IMO.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 6:53:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BobCole:


To be fair, 9mm commercial load development was not too good in the late 1980s, early 1990s. That was a good reason for many people to switch over to a .40 caliber. 10mm wasn't much of an option back then to be honest. Only three real models in that caliber: S&W, Colt Delta Elite & Glock 20.

9mm is light years ahead of where it used to be, so why not gain back the capacity you gave away in a .40? 





If I had to select a duty gun for open carry these days, it'd still be either a Beretta or a CZ. Both are much more accurate than anything S&W is making, IMO.
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The first part of your post is the exact, literal truth. Back in the day, ammo development wasn't anywhere near as advanced as it is now. It seemed like a lot of companies just added a step in bullet construction and punched a hollow point into any old FMJ design, then marketed it. Most JHP ammo didn't work well, if at all, and some didn't feed reliably in autos. At the time, if you were concerned and had the option, you stepped up in caliber. ".45 may not expand, but it won't shrink!" Current research has proven that this really doesn't matter and all handgun calibers are roughly the same with the same types of ammo, but that wasn't the thinking back in the day.

Nowadays, with more R&D and testing, as well as well defined goals and performance standards, ammo is so much better than it used to be that I don't think most people really understand it. Back in the day, hollow point expansion was iffy, if it happened at all, even under perfect circumstances. Now, if a hollow point doesn't expand, people get upset, there is research to find out why and changes are made if needed.

As for Berettas, back in the day, "common knowledge" is that Beretta only won the competition for the US Military because Italy allowed the US to station cruise missiles in Italy if they did. Sig was robbed and the P226 should have won. In reality, the Beretta 92FS is truly a great handgun, provided you do the necessary preventative maintenance (like swapping out recoil springs and locking blocks when necessary), which the US Military won't do. My PD issued 92FSs for quite a few years , in among some others. Despite indifferent maintenance, at best, they ALWAYS worked at the range, and even the really beat ones were VERY accurate. In fact, we had a guy that flatly refused to do maintenance on his issued Beretta. The barrel was a shitty, rusty mess, the slide finish was chipped in several areas and the chipped areas were rusty and it as always dry as a bone. In addition, his technique was shit and he just didn't care, all it was to him was a piece of the uniform. Despite that, his Beretta ALWAYS ran and NEVER malfed. To me, it was quite the eye opener. When the PD went with Glock 22s as issued guns, they sold off the old issued guns to us, if we wanted them, for what they would have gotten for trade in. I bought an ancient, clapped out 1st Gen G17 (that still runs like a raped ape once the extractor spring was replaced) and an unissued 92FS with dead night sights for an insanely cheap price. After shooting and getting familiar with the Beretta, it would be one of my top choices if I had to carry a DA/SA auto, although I'll admit that I'd want to convert the safety to decocker only if I had the choice.
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