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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/19/2005 1:00:24 AM EDT
Bear with me if this seems like post #80746 asking the SAME OLD question. Hey maybe it is.

Would a $1000+- 1911 be a good start for a beginner?

See, obviously I like Sigs, the P226 the most at that, but my little brother is not going to be so little soon and in a year he is turning 21, which means he can get a handgun purchase permit (He lives in Jersey, btw.)

Now, as far as handguns go, he has shot my Sigs, my Glocks, and a SW1911 that a friend owns (runs quite well, I must admit). He liked all of them, but for some reason he kept on going back to the 1911 because it just felt right (he has rather large hands and is also quite tall, so a larger gun may even be better for him than not).

Now, I am not an expert on 1911 by any stretch of the imagination, so would a $1000+- 1911 be a decent handgun for a relative beginner shooter and certainly beginner owner (with ownership comes the responsibility to maintain the weapon, you know cleaning repairs etc.)?

See, I was thinking either one of those nice looking black stainless steel SA's with the adjustable night sights and the speedchute as you can get 'em stock from SA (Model PX9152L), or maybe a Kimber Warrior. Some Wilson mags for sure, because I can see that they are considered to be the best by all you (Group order!).

That SA looks pretty much ready to go, speedchute, night sights (just find that easier to shoot with than old white dots), adjustable sights is a good thing for a range gun and Bo Mar's are pretty decent as far as durability goes, and it, well, looks good too. And mind you, this will be a [somewhat late] birthday present, so it better look good.

The Kimber Warrior on the other hand is supposedly the same thing that the Force Recon boys get and while a Kimber (I've heard the horror stories) it has an external extractor and it also comes in the Desert flavor which has a solid (non-lightened) trigger as I can see on the website at least, which I think is better really than the lightened one, but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, the Kimber is more expensive, by the order of $200, which makes for a few Wilson mags and ammo. But what kind of "immediate and urgent" work would the SA need versus the Kimber? Replace extractor with Wilson model, right? What else? What's a list of "needs to be replaced ASAP" parts for each, the SA and the Kimber? Extractor, springs, etc. etc. etc.?

So really the question is, which is the better deal as far as making it run smoothly goes?

Thanks in advance for you advice.

Nick

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:19:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 1:19:40 AM EDT by Combat_Jack]
1) The Warrior has little relationship, other than both being Kimbers, with the USMC ICQB pistol.

2) So long as he shoots and get training with it, the 1911 is not any harder to use than the glock or sig. The only real difference is the safety and the extra maintenance.

3)Bomars and a speed chute dont belong on a defensive gun.


For that price range, I would check gunbroker and the EE, and get a lightly used Les Baer TRP.

ETA: I dont mean to sound like an ass, so I apoloize in advance if I did.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 3:29:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
1) The Warrior has little relationship, other than both being Kimbers, with the USMC ICQB pistol.

2) So long as he shoots and get training with it, the 1911 is not any harder to use than the glock or sig. The only real difference is the safety and the extra maintenance.

3)Bomars and a speed chute dont belong on a defensive gun.


For that price range, I would check gunbroker and the EE, and get a lightly used Les Baer TRP.

ETA: I dont mean to sound like an ass, so I apoloize in advance if I did.



Quite alright, quite alright. I think I should have been clearer. This is not meant to be a defensive gun. First and foremost a range gun, and I think that's where the Bo Mar's and the speedchute doesn't hurt, rather, may benefit him on the range. Then again, I am the one who doesn't know jack about 1911's so I will defer to your better judgement. Les Baer? Aren't those $1700 or so?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 3:41:55 AM EDT
I am no 1911 expert either.

In fact I am new to them. But I can offer what I think may be the best advice to newbies.....Read and listen

Notably to those at 1911forum.com, our 1911 forum, and take in all you can. Look at what others are doing, and see what they select and why

The net has become the ultimate library for enthusiasts of all walks of life

hours surfing sites, discussions, links, and custom shop sites, can save hundreds or even thousands for new buyers.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:26:35 AM EDT
Personally, I would buy something less than 1000. Probably something in the 750 range and spend some of that leftover money on ammo. That would get you a lot of familiarization with how the 1911 shoots and how well you will like/dislike it.

My first 1911 was a paraordnance p14. I love the gun and still have it but I wish I knew what other options were out there before I bought. So like he said, do your research before you go off and buy. In addition to this site you can go to:

*Where a wealth of 1911 info can be found, with lots of helpful folks
www.1911forum.com/forums/

*Where most of the well known 1911 customizers hang out. Their work will blow your mind.
www.louderthanwords.us/
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 6:55:09 AM EDT
Check Gunbroker.com and Auctionarms.com for the 25th Anniversary Kimber Custom. It can be had for less than $800 and IMO is a "best buy" in that price range.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:12:46 AM EDT
With the birth of the SA\DA high cap wonder nine, a lot of people got away from the 1911 platform because it was susposed to be hard to learn and kicked too much. In reality only the compact 1911's really buck and kick. The 5" full size government model takes a little getting used to because it's designed to be carried locked and cocked, but it's nothing that you can't master with a little training.

Unless something is broken, don't fix it. There is really nothing that 'needs' replacing except for the exractor. The original design for the internal extractor used spring steel, not tool steel. A properly tuned extractor is one that dosen't touch the inside of the channel it sits in. This isn't hard to do and if you don't feel comfortable doing it, most 1911 smiths will do it for little more than the cost of the part. USGI style magazines are good for the range, but either Wilson or Novak magazines are what I carry my defensive ammo in.

The Springfield Armory loaded pistols are a very good value for the money. Just remember that if the pistol is working correctly there really aren't any modifications that will make you shoot better, just practice.


Originally Posted By P226Lover:
But what kind of "immediate and urgent" work would the SA need versus the Kimber? Replace extractor with Wilson model, right? What else? What's a list of "needs to be replaced ASAP" parts for each, the SA and the Kimber? Extractor, springs, etc. etc. etc.?


Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:44:18 AM EDT
The Les Baer can be had for about 1300 if you look around. It would be slightly used, but Baer's are fit tight and made well, so it will last longer than most box stock 1911's.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:48:23 AM EDT
How bout the SW1911? He already enjoyed shooting that one.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 7:56:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:04:42 AM EDT
It's nice to hear you want to buy a gun for your little brother, but most importantly, will you have the confidence that he will be properly trained for it? What I'm trying to get at is to schedule a class for him, preferably a CCW class, and if you don't have one yet, perhaps you both can enroll and learn together. I would hate for him to be caught carrying around illegally.

That said, I can see you want the best for your brother, but why give him something so expensive with the possibility that he might not like it? I say take him to a gun store and observe his behavior. See what gun he becomes attracted to. You have to be sly about this. And then talk about this gun at home or wherever, to build up his fantasy for it. If it is a bit pricey, at least you'll know that he has an interest for it. Maybe he'll like a 1911 with a light rail, or maybe not.

I cannot recommend anything since I don't know what your brother will like.

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:14:57 AM EDT
Ok, a number of responses:

The SW1911 is out simply because of the extractor issue.

I know that external extractors aren't bad by nature, but they haven't gotten the best press as far as 1911's are concerned.

I guess I will just look around, see what Les Baer's are available on the cheap and if nothing comes around in a few months, it will be a Springfield. He can pay to "Yostize" it himself later on! Haha! Good motivation to work, eh?

SIG X-Five SO.... so sexy...

http://www.sigsauer.de/uploads/pics/p226_so_01.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist...
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:16:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M16Ham:
It's nice to hear you want to buy a gun for your little brother, but most importantly, will you have the confidence that he will be properly trained for it? What I'm trying to get at is to schedule a class for him, preferably a CCW class, and if you don't have one yet, perhaps you both can enroll and learn together. I would hate for him to be caught carrying around illegally.

That said, I can see you want the best for your brother, but why give him something so expensive with the possibility that he might not like it? I say take him to a gun store and observe his behavior. See what gun he becomes attracted to. You have to be sly about this. And then talk about this gun at home or wherever, to build up his fantasy for it. If it is a bit pricey, at least you'll know that he has an interest for it. Maybe he'll like a 1911 with a light rail, or maybe not.

I cannot recommend anything since I don't know what your brother will like.



CCW? Haha! I wish! He is in Jersey and there to stay for a while. As for myself... NY... not exactly CCW central.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:52:12 AM EDT
Smack me silly! If I'd known that, I would've.....cut my fingers?? Hmm...give your bro the best you can give. Hey, it's family!!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:17:21 AM EDT
Why not?

My first pistol purchase was a SA Mil-Spec.


For a defensive pistol, stick with the Novak sights and avoid the magwell (speedchute).



As for "immediate and urgent work," there is none. have him go out and shoot the snot out of it. If it works flawlessly, then there's no need to replace anything.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:48:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
Why not?

My first pistol purchase was a SA Mil-Spec.


For a defensive pistol, stick with the Novak sights and avoid the magwell (speedchute).



As for "immediate and urgent work," there is none. have him go out and shoot the snot out of it. If it works flawlessly, then there's no need to replace anything.



Really? Why do all of you say that the "speedchute" magwell is a no-no for defensive/tactical use? Hell, the most expensive Wilson's come that way! I am talking $3000 1911's here!

And logically, wouldn't a larger opening that guides the mags into the butt more smoothly be preferable? I am so confused now...
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:49:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 10:51:18 AM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:34:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By P226Lover:

Really? Why do all of you say that the "speedchute" magwell is a no-no for defensive/tactical use? Hell, the most expensive Wilson's come that way! I am talking $3000 1911's here!

And logically, wouldn't a larger opening that guides the mags into the butt more smoothly be preferable? I am so confused now...



What I've noticed:

1) The extended magwell adds length to the butt of an already rather long butt pistol. This hinders concealability.

2) There's more to getting the mag in. It's seating the mag properly. All the Wilson mags come with plastic bumper pads, but in a gun with an extended magwell, these fit flush. With it protruding, you can seat the magazine more positively. Also, in a pinch, you can use the GI-type mags without bumper pads if you leave off the magwell.

3) All the go-fast gear looks cool and helps you be more combat effective, but users tend to become reliant on them. What happens if you pick up a gun without a magwell? I can just barely keep up with those IPSC guys with their hi-cap, reflex sight, compensated .38Super +P race guns when I've got a near bone stock Les Baer 1911 with 8 rounds. Give us all SA Mil-Spec guns and most of those guys will flounder.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:05:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:

Originally Posted By P226Lover:

Really? Why do all of you say that the "speedchute" magwell is a no-no for defensive/tactical use? Hell, the most expensive Wilson's come that way! I am talking $3000 1911's here!

And logically, wouldn't a larger opening that guides the mags into the butt more smoothly be preferable? I am so confused now...



What I've noticed:

1) The extended magwell adds length to the butt of an already rather long butt pistol. This hinders concealability.

2) There's more to getting the mag in. It's seating the mag properly. All the Wilson mags come with plastic bumper pads, but in a gun with an extended magwell, these fit flush. With it protruding, you can seat the magazine more positively. Also, in a pinch, you can use the GI-type mags without bumper pads if you leave off the magwell.

3) All the go-fast gear looks cool and helps you be more combat effective, but users tend to become reliant on them. What happens if you pick up a gun without a magwell? I can just barely keep up with those IPSC guys with their hi-cap, reflex sight, compensated .38Super +P race guns when I've got a near bone stock Les Baer 1911 with 8 rounds. Give us all SA Mil-Spec guns and most of those guys will flounder.




Wilson offers a couple of different base pad length models. The 47D is the basic model and is made to be used with a normal frame. The 47DE is an extended version of the same mag made to be used with frames with a mag well on them. The 47DE's will protrude past a magwell.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:49:10 PM EDT
I've got a Wilson Protector with their Speed-Chute installed. The 47Ds with their .350" base pads work just fine.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 2:06:28 PM EDT
S&A magwell is the first mod I do to a 1911, regardless of its use. I dont have any 1911 mags besides wilson 47d's, so finding a mag that doesnt fit isnt an issue. I highly recommend speed chutes, they make sense.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 2:25:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:
S&A magwell is the first mod I do to a 1911, regardless of its use. I dont have any 1911 mags besides wilson 47d's, so finding a mag that doesnt fit isnt an issue. I highly recommend speed chutes, they make sense.



I disagree. I had one and it gave me fits, so I got rid of it.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 2:51:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 2:53:26 PM EDT by P226Lover]
I see this heading into a "speedchute" vs. naked flame fest...

Oh yeah: No one commented on the single action only P226 X-Five with the 5 inch barrel? It's black... it's evil... it must be good! ETA: Combat Jack, you know what your board name is, right? I mean, what a combat jack is... Just checking...
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 3:48:26 PM EDT
At $2,500 I'll pass. For that amount of money you can buy three 1911's in three different sizes to go with whatever you're wearing.

The whole speed chute thing is just another arched vs. flat mainspring housing or commander vs. spur hammer arguement. There are alot of competition parts that really have no business in a combat handgun, and alot that do. Don't give into the bling bling thing. Buy a basic 1911 an dlearn to shoot it. Until I got a custom built bullseye pistol I did some of my best shooting with a USGI rack grade 1911A1.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 3:53:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 3:53:27 PM EDT by Mall-Ninja]

Originally Posted By P226Lover:
I see this heading into a "speedchute" vs. naked flame fest...

Oh yeah: No one commented on the single action only P226 X-Five with the 5 inch barrel? It's black... it's evil... it must be good!

ETA: Combat Jack, you know what your board name is, right? I mean, what a combat jack is... Just checking...




I thought the X-Five was supposed to be a target gun? I'd be all for a SIG P-Series Single Action combat gun.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 4:08:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By P226Lover:
Oh yeah: No one commented on the single action only P226 X-Five with the 5 inch barrel? It's black... it's evil... it must be good!

And costs what, $2k?


ETA: Combat Jack, you know what your board name is, right? I mean, what a combat jack is... Just checking...

Yeah, I know. So does everyone else I took the name on a dare

And no, I was never in the service.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 4:12:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 4:20:04 PM EDT by MikeG23]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
1) The Warrior has little relationship, other than both being Kimbers, with the USMC ICQB pistol.



Based off the little information that I have read I would disagree. The differences seem to be small with the biggest difference imo being the light rail and the biggest difference that people complain about being the grips.

Why do you say they are so different?
I am asking because I know someone who is trying to sell one. Not that it really matters if it is different because I have shot it and it's pretty sweet.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 4:18:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 4:18:50 PM EDT by MikeG23]
oops
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