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Posted: 1/16/2006 8:21:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 8:21:20 PM EDT by CockedandLocked]
Which 1911 straight out of the box is the one you'd trust your life too...the one that is dead on reliable. Is it Springfield? Maybe Kimber or Colt, Para or another manufacturer? No custom jobs please, just an under $1,000 1911 that you'd trust without having a bit of work done to it.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:13:48 PM EDT
Trust my life with it out of the box? Hell no! Give me a few thousand rounds with the gun AND mags, i don't care what gun it is.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:14:18 PM EDT
I wouldnt even trust a glock straight out of the box, you need to test the damn thing out first
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:16:50 PM EDT
You are probably going to get a wide range of responses, but I have been very happy with my kimbers. The other brands (colt, springfield, para) should also be very reliable.

Back to your question. If I had $1000 and wanted a reliable 1911. I would buy a kimber.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:18:08 PM EDT
For the last three years I've shot in an IDPA match once a month. The one single gun that jams constantly and consistantly is the 1911. Some of the guys had reloads, some were due to bad magazines. Maybe some of it was operator error.

Glocks and Sigs rarely failed to go bang. My Kahr K9 has 4500 rds, two jams.

To answer your question, Kimber seems to run the best, with wilson mags.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:18:52 PM EDT
The answer is none, get a Glock or Hk.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:18:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I wouldnt even trust a glock straight out of the box, you need to test the damn thing out first



I agree. Should have read the original post closely. Run a shit load of ammo through any gun you plan to carry. you should also practice clearing jams etc, in case Mr. Murphy shows up at the gunfight.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:19:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
I wouldnt even trust a glock straight out of the box, you need to test the damn thing out first



Agreed. Any mechanical device can fail or be made out of spec. You pays your money and you takes your chances...

G
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:20:40 PM EDT
None.

I would never trust my life to any mechanical device straight out of the box by choice.

However, if I had to choose a pistol without prior testing it would be, in the following order:

#1 GLOCK 9mm(19, 17, 34)

#2 Beretta 92FS

#3 Taurus PT-92AF
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:24:47 PM EDT
I guess you need an icon to the left before people click on the quote button?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:26:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
Trust my life with it out of the box? Hell no! Give me a few thousand rounds with the gun AND mags, i don't care what gun it is.



my bad.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:26:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Infadel:
You are probably going to get a wide range of responses, but I have been very happy with my kimbers. The other brands (colt, springfield, para) should also be very reliable.

Back to your question. If I had $1000 and wanted a reliable 1911. I would buy a kimber.



Kimber.

A real gun, not a polymer princess, and both of mine have run like champs from day one. That saud, I would NOT trust my life to a gun out of the box...you need to train with it and out it through the wringer...all makes have lemons.

SG
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:28:38 PM EDT
Both of my factory Springfields were junk out of the box.
I've never had luck with 1911 pistols, even with McCormack and Novak mags.
Maybe it's just me, but my Glock 22 and SIGs P226 and P229 never fail.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:29:30 PM EDT
Kimber
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:34:16 PM EDT
I think you guys are looking into his question a littleto much.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:36:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 6:37:48 PM EDT by BigDozer66]
A 1911 style pistol that has had nothing done to it, with the exception of putting rounds down the barrel, that I would trust my life with?

Here it is and I do trust my life with it everyday.



Wilson 47D mags
Hornady 230 grain ammo
Fist Holster

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:38:50 PM EDT
USP
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:49:07 PM EDT
Thats a tough one, I own kimbers, colts, springfields and para's. I have carried all of them one time or another. i trust all of them with my life. I have also put a minimum of a thousand rounds through each gun. The one's that have had no work done to them are my two kimbers a custom classic and a compact, both were made before they made it to the big times. both have serial numbers less than 3000. I have had 2 malfunctions with them both of them were reloads I did and were squib loads (read my fault), both can out shoot me any day of the week.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:44:42 PM EDT
I would trust Kimber and SA out of the box (providing)
I put 3 Wilson Combat 47D mags in there before I closed it at the store
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:56:55 PM EDT
My Springfield Armory full size loaded has had one malfuction a fail to feed, with a shot shell, other than that it has run flawlessly.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:47:31 PM EDT
Kimber
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:46:45 AM EDT

I think you guys are looking into his question a little to much


Thank you brother!!!!

All I meant by "out of the box" was STOCK- in other words not having any custom work done to it. I would be a fool to not test the gun before carrying it, to see which ammo it likes and which it doesn't and of course to practice with it often. That's a given with any gun. I simply meant out of the box, no work done to it, which 1911 would you choose. And where the hell are the Sigs and Glocks coming from???? 1911's only
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:56:40 AM EDT
Springfield Mil-Spec
Works for me, but since so many people have had problems with them, for under 1000 dollars you should get two and you'll be that much more likely to get a good one.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:22:36 AM EDT
Why do you want a "stock" gun? Have you found one with the exact features you like without any changes?

If I were dogmatic about a refusal to ever change or alter a part, and I was limiting myself to $1000 for the purchase of this holy grail, I would probably make it a Sig GSR. No, I don't like the external extractor or firing pin safety, but would live with that in order to get no MIM parts and very high quality construction.

If I were limiting myself to a gun that I would be into for under $1000 when I was done with it, I would get a Springfield Loaded. I would then get a Wilson bullet proof extractor and slide stop fitted. I would also get rid of the ILS mainspring housing.

No matter what you get, pay close attention to the mags. My guns don't run well with CMC mags. Even the Power Mags have issues. They allow the last round from the mag to be pushed ahead of the extractor. I only use Wilson mags. I can't stress in stong enough terms how important magazines are with the 1911. I would bet that the vast majority of failures you hear about with these are due to the magazines.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:44:21 PM EDT
Have a Kimber Series 1 Custom Classic Target
Springfield GI .45
Colt WW-1 Repro

BUT

If I need to count on 1 Pistol as a Balls to the Wall life-saver, I'd trust my 2-1/2" Smith & Wesson Model 66 .357 Magnum.

Love my .45's, but the old 6 shooter is ALWAYS THERE which is why the design has lasted as long as it has.

This should not start a revolver vs. .45 flame war. Just my opinion for my .02 Cents.

Of course, I might trust my Bushmaster M-4 Clone first
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:19:20 PM EDT

If I need to count on 1 Pistol as a Balls to the Wall life-saver, I'd trust my 2-1/2" Smith & Wesson Model 66 .357 Magnum.



I'm sorry...but you obviously did not read the question.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:04:02 PM EDT
I'd probably choose a Springfield, S&W or Para. I wouldn't trust Kimber unless it was an internal extractor model (based on personal experience).

I've read experience from instructors and those who attend handgun courses where several thousand rounds are fired. It seems like the general consensus is that all guns will fail no matter what make or brand. The general consensus is those that have been "customized" seemed to have the most problems.

From personal experience, I also wouldn't consider using a gun for defense without putting several hundred flawless rounds through it, but I don't think that's really your question...
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 1:16:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 1:20:57 AM EDT by MEH92]
Trust NOTHING with your life until you have tested it thoroughly. I was issued a Glock 22C for duty and the FIRST day it broke. The recoil spring/rod assembly went tits up after about 100 rounds or so. Since then it has been fine, but out-of-the-box it was unacceptable.

That being said, my Kimber (series-I) Custom Classic, Les Baer Stinger, and Les Baer Premier-II have all been exceptionally reliable. I would trust a Les Baer but only after the prescribed break-in period. I may trust a Kimber (older series-I style) but only after it had at least 1K rounds through it to show that the MIM was done right.

Even after a thorough testing a gun certainly can break, so have a backup plan.

Trust nothing... test everything.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:00:25 AM EDT
Its a good thing that everybody has decided to say "I wouldnt trust anything without putting xx many rounds through it..."

This has been established.

In answer to the original post: Kimbers seem good as do the Springfield Loaded, Milspec and GI models.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:35:16 PM EDT
My Smith and Wesson 1911s have been 100% reliable out of the box. I trust them both.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:37:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

I think you guys are looking into his question a little to much


Thank you brother!!!!

All I meant by "out of the box" was STOCK- in other words not having any custom work done to it. I would be a fool to not test the gun before carrying it, to see which ammo it likes and which it doesn't and of course to practice with it often. That's a given with any gun. I simply meant out of the box, no work done to it, which 1911 would you choose. And where the hell are the Sigs and Glocks coming from???? 1911's only



Maybe you missed my post but the answer to your question has been given.


Originally Posted By BigDozer66:
A 1911 style pistol that has had nothing done to it, with the exception of putting rounds down the barrel, that I would trust my life with?

Here it is and I do trust my life with it everyday.



Wilson 47D mags
Hornady 230 grain ammo
Fist Holster

BigDozer66



Both of my Kimber's and my brother's are "Pre Series II" models and it doesn't take much to change the Series II's into "Pre Series II"!

Then again you said you didn't want to do anything to it except buy it, load it up and shoot it.

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:15:41 AM EDT
Hey BigDozer,
Thanks for the reply. I actually had one of those. Series 2 though. It was my first 1911 and it caused me to sell it and stay away from them for a few years. That CDP could not fire more than 5 rounds without jamming or I think stovepiping is the correct word? I tried to return it but the guy told em I was limpwristing and just needed to practice a bit more. I asked him if I was limpwrisiting, then why didn't it affect my Sig 220??? he had no answer.

Anyhow, I called Kimber and they said send it back, we'll fix it. I didn't like that answer. I had just dropped almost 1100. on this gun and after 2 weeks had to send it back to the factory? That kinda pissed me off. So I sold it and tried not to look back. But I always remember just how good the 1911 frame felt in my hand. So I want to try it again.

That's a very nice gun you have. I have heard the series 1 are better than the 2's, although I am not sure why?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:38:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 2:45:35 PM EDT by MEH92]
Sandman,

I'm not trying to try to start an argument, or defend Kimber's business practices or products, but why were't you satisfied with Kimbers offer to fix it? Did they want you to pay shipping? I sympathise with you, though, because when my Ultra CDP-II broke early on in its life, I was pretty disappointed. Kimber did fix it, but I lost confidence in the gun (a whole other story).

I'm no physicist, but I instruct pistol shooters and have a little understanding of what occurrs during limpwristing. I'll try to explain it as best as possible. Anyone else is free to jump in here and help me untangle my tongue if this doesn't make sense.

"Limpwristing" means not having your wrist locked tightly or not having a firm grip on the pistol when you shoot. Semiautomatic pistols operate as the slide predictably reciprocates back and forth on the slide rails. Simplified, the pistol is designed for recoil to send a certain amount of energy rearward as the slide moves back against spring pressure (extraction), then the slide stops as it reaches it maximum rearward movement (ejection), and then it races forward under spring energy to complete the cycle (feeding). All of this occurs in a certain designed, predictable speed often referred to as the "timing" of the pistol. If the timing is somehow altered, function can be drastically affected. Timing, in essence, is how the gun was designed to handle the energy generated by the fired ammunition. Engineers design the moving parts to operate withing a certain speed "window." Get outside that window and problems will occur.

One of the things that effects timing is spring pressure. If a recoil spring is too weak, then the amount of energy sent rearward during extraction will be greater than designed. The slide will be moving faster than designed. This can break parts and result in malfunctions. If the recoil spring is too strong, then the spring will overcome the amount of rearward slide energy and keep the slide from reaching its maximum rearward movement. This can cause malfunctions as well. If the magazine spring is too weak, it may not lift a round up properly, resulting in a feedway stoppage.

The spring weights you use must be matched to the power of the ammunition in a particular gun. So, the power of the ammunition you use will have a direct affect on timing as well.

When a shooter does not lock their wrist (limpwristing), the gun recoils rearward and upward in an exaggerated manner. Some of the energy that the gun relies upon for correct timing is actually absorbed in movement of the gun and arm. Simplified, this lost energy disturbs the timing of the gun and can result in malfunctions. Consider limpwristing sort of an energy-sponge, absorbing needed energy for the cycling process.

Some guns have a wide window for timing and will be less affected by a disturbance. Some guns are very sensitive to timing issues.

Typically, light guns (aluminum and plastic), and guns with small grips and short slides can be more prone to these kinds of malfunctions. The reason is beacuse that these guns are simply harder to hold onto tightly and/or control. Their light weight makes them "whippy" or their small grips do not provide enough area to acquire a firm grasp. Both of these conditions can result in exaggerated movement of the gun under recoil and that movement robs the gun of the needed energy to cycle properly.

Of course, bad technique will also result in malfunctions. If ANY semiautomatic pistol is not firmly grasped and the wrists locked upon firing, the gun (regardless of it's size or weight) may loose enough energy to malfunction. New shooters, or shooters who were never trained properly in grip and stance are particularly prone to this problem.

I hope that helps a little. I tried to keep it as simple as possible. Maybe the Kimber issues you had were limpwristing and maybe they weren't. I could purposely make my Ultra CDP-II malfunction by limpwristing, but when I did my part properly, the gun was extremely reliable.

Good luck and stay safe.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:16:35 PM EDT
MEH92,
That was an excellent post and thank you for taking the time to type that all out. I have heard the term limpwristing many times, but now I know what it means and how it can occur. I will take your advice and apply it and see if it makes a difference. Hopefully it will.

As to your Kimber question. I guess I was just soured that I had went out and spent almost 1100.00 on a gun (you have to remember, this was the most I had ever spent on a handgun by about double!!) and the darn thing did not work as advertised. Looking back it was probably a lot to do with technique. I was never taught how to shoot. I just hold the gun and shoot. I'm 37 years old and I am just now starting to understand

Better late than never though right?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:11:02 PM EDT
You're welcome. It's never too late to learn.

I've been shooting regularly for over 20 years and now I even do some teaching as well. However, I remember when I was new to the activity. I "taught" myself how to shoot and as a result learned every bad habbit in the book. For the age of 15 to 21 I had terrible technique and my results reflected it. When a professional instructor finally go a hold of me it literally took a few years to really rid me of my demons! Every now and then... when I'm not paying close attention to my technique, one of those gremlins will find its way back into my technique and the results will immediately show it.

Don't lose heart, just track down a good insturctor and have an open mind.

Enjoy and be safe.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:53:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MEH92:
Sandman,

I'm not trying to try to start an argument, or defend Kimber's business practices or products, but why were't you satisfied with Kimbers offer to fix it? Did they want you to pay shipping? I sympathise with you, though, because when my Ultra CDP-II broke early on in its life, I was pretty disappointed. Kimber did fix it, but I lost confidence in the gun (a whole other story).

I'm no physicist, but I instruct pistol shooters and have a little understanding of what occurrs during limpwristing. I'll try to explain it as best as possible. Anyone else is free to jump in here and help me untangle my tongue if this doesn't make sense.

"Limpwristing" means not having your wrist locked tightly or not having a firm grip on the pistol when you shoot. Semiautomatic pistols operate as the slide predictably reciprocates back and forth on the slide rails. Simplified, the pistol is designed for recoil to send a certain amount of energy rearward as the slide moves back against spring pressure (extraction), then the slide stops as it reaches it maximum rearward movement (ejection), and then it races forward under spring energy to complete the cycle (feeding). All of this occurs in a certain designed, predictable speed often referred to as the "timing" of the pistol. If the timing is somehow altered, function can be drastically affected. Timing, in essence, is how the gun was designed to handle the energy generated by the fired ammunition. Engineers design the moving parts to operate withing a certain speed "window." Get outside that window and problems will occur.

One of the things that effects timing is spring pressure. If a recoil spring is too weak, then the amount of energy sent rearward during extraction will be greater than designed. The slide will be moving faster than designed. This can break parts and result in malfunctions. If the recoil spring is too strong, then the spring will overcome the amount of rearward slide energy and keep the slide from reaching its maximum rearward movement. This can cause malfunctions as well. If the magazine spring is too weak, it may not lift a round up properly, resulting in a feedway stoppage.

The spring weights you use must be matched to the power of the ammunition in a particular gun. So, the power of the ammunition you use will have a direct affect on timing as well.

When a shooter does not lock their wrist (limpwristing), the gun recoils rearward and upward in an exaggerated manner. Some of the energy that the gun relies upon for correct timing is actually absorbed in movement of the gun and arm. Simplified, this lost energy disturbs the timing of the gun and can result in malfunctions. Consider limpwristing sort of an energy-sponge, absorbing needed energy for the cycling process.

Some guns have a wide window for timing and will be less affected by a disturbance. Some guns are very sensitive to timing issues.

Typically, light guns (aluminum and plastic), and guns with small grips and short slides can be more prone to these kinds of malfunctions. The reason is beacuse that these guns are simply harder to hold onto tightly and/or control. Their light weight makes them "whippy" or their small grips do not provide enough area to acquire a firm grasp. Both of these conditions can result in exaggerated movement of the gun under recoil and that movement robs the gun of the needed energy to cycle properly.

Of course, bad technique will also result in malfunctions. If ANY semiautomatic pistol is not firmly grasped and the wrists locked upon firing, the gun (regardless of it's size or weight) may loose enough energy to malfunction. New shooters, or shooters who were never trained properly in grip and stance are particularly prone to this problem.

I hope that helps a little. I tried to keep it as simple as possible. Maybe the Kimber issues you had were limpwristing and maybe they weren't. I could purposely make my Ultra CDP-II malfunction by limpwristing, but when I did my part properly, the gun was extremely reliable.

Good luck and stay safe.



Nice post... I got two things to contribute here
1. HK's dont really care how you hold them with full power ammo. They cycle most anything, Most other guns will be pickier to varying extents as mentioned above.
2. I have had people tell me my HK was jamming because I was limp wristing when that was NOT the cause. I had just run out of reloaded ammo and wanted to go to an IDPA match. I go to the nearest fun store and pick up the cheapest 45 they had...A-Merc. This is a gun with ~1700 rounds and NO jams, malfunctions, FTF, FTE whatsoever to that time even with a lot of pro-mags.

First buzzer...Bang, FTF, tap, clear bullet with fingers, Bang,Bang, FTF, clear with fingers, Bang FTF, Drop mag (it was a promag by the way)..mag wont drop ....Look to see whats happenign with timer still running. The case of the bullet was hung up on the lip of the magazine.. EVERYONE WAS SAYING I WAS LIMP WRISTING IT. I knew better cause I had loaded rounds so weak for this gun they wouldnt know over poppers and it would still cycle and this was factory full house... I hadnt shot in a while so I believed them a little. Loaded a fresh HK mag and the gun ran fine. I blamed it all on the mags silently while relenting I must have been limp wristing.

Next stage I load up with HK mag and KNEW I would not be limp wristing cause I was paying more attention to hold than even my sight picture. I get off about 5 shots and guess what...the same thing. Except this time when I look in the port to pull the bullet up off the mag I noticed the bullet had set back in the case about 1/4 inch or more . I finish that stage out with a few more similar problems and everyone kept saying I was limp wristing even after I described how the bullets didnt have a crimp to them at all. They didnt believe me since we never found the above described round in the mud. I finished out the last stage with my carry ammo in the Pro-mags without problems $$$

Took the rest of the crap home, put it on my Dillon 550 and CRIMPED ALL REMAINING ROUNDS. The mouth of the cases measured larger than the bases . That last 20-25 then cycled flawlessly out of Pro-mags

Sorry for the tangent, but there can be more things at work than just limp wristing causing a malfunciton. Bad ammo or just ammo that a particular gun doesn like can mess thigns up. Magazines can also do the same. Kimber magazines are not the best just cause they are factory. And its very likely Kimber coulda fixed it or else swapped out your upper for a Series I upper.

Get some personal instruction and try different ammo and Wilson mags. Then blame the gun
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