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Link Posted: 12/28/2020 1:33:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/28/2020 1:44:41 PM EST by shotar]
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 2:00:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 2:25:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By shotar:


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.
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As energy isn’t a relevant wounding mechanism in handgun calibers, I’m going to just take your anecdote with a big grain of salt.

Thanks for the lols and deer stories, though. 👍🏻

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Link Posted: 12/28/2020 2:54:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 3:39:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By shotar:


I understand. It's hard to believe actual experts, when one is bombarded by propaganda and does not actually do the research themselves.

The internet is full of self appointed experts. Usually of the kind who don't have anecdotes, because they never actually did anything.

Big and fast >small and fast
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Spectacular... It’s better that I know you’re an expert, now.

Show me data.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 3:53:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:05:20 PM EST
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Originally Posted By shotar:
To the original question.  The 1911 was a great pistol in it's day and was the superior combat handgun of the early to mid 20th century.  It was eclipsed and surpassed by the wonder 9s.  It is a great target pistol, can be a decent hunting pistol in 10mm, but for daily carry it offers little that more modern designs don't do better.  It is heavy.  I can carry 15 far superior 10mm rounds in a package that is in the same weight class, and much lower weight for 15-18 9mm.  

I carried one for years before I knew better.
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Aluminum 1911s exist and weigh less than the g20.

Iirc 10mm edges out the .45 super by a little but its far from "far superior".
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:06:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:



As energy isn’t a relevant wounding mechanism in handgun calibers, I’m going to just take your anecdote with a big grain of salt.

Thanks for the lols and deer stories, though. 👍🏻

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/241349/06A3697A-301C-4440-A802-9BAD9F87FB0A_png-1752329.JPG
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By shotar:


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.



As energy isn’t a relevant wounding mechanism in handgun calibers, I’m going to just take your anecdote with a big grain of salt.

Thanks for the lols and deer stories, though. 👍🏻

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/241349/06A3697A-301C-4440-A802-9BAD9F87FB0A_png-1752329.JPG


How do bullets penetrate or expand without energy?
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:13:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 03RN:


How do bullets penetrate or expand without energy?
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MAGIC
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:13:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 03RN:


How do bullets penetrate or expand without energy?
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You need sufficient energy for expansion and penetration of the given design. However, energy alone isn’t a relevant variable.

Once you have sufficient penetration and expansion simply adding more energy doesn’t really get you anywhere.

Conversely, you can have an FMJ with higher levels of energy and compare it to a modern JHP with lower energy levels.

Guess which out will give you better real world performance?
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:14:37 PM EST
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Originally Posted By shotar:

You want my notes from actual shooting investigations? I'll be at the office tomorrow,  you're welcome to stop by. Wear a mask, government building.
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You should publish that because it hasn’t really been been shown in any other studies.

Worked for the government most of my life as well, so it doesn’t really impress me much. Sorry.
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:20:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


You need sufficient energy for expansion and penetration of the given design. However, energy alone isn’t a relevant variable.

Once you have sufficient penetration and expansion simply adding more energy doesn’t really get you anywhere.

Conversely, you can have an FMJ with higher levels of energy and compare it to a modern JHP with lower energy levels.

Guess which out will give you better real world performance?
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By 03RN:


How do bullets penetrate or expand without energy?


You need sufficient energy for expansion and penetration of the given design. However, energy alone isn’t a relevant variable.

Once you have sufficient penetration and expansion simply adding more energy doesn’t really get you anywhere.

Conversely, you can have an FMJ with higher levels of energy and compare it to a modern JHP with lower energy levels.

Guess which out will give you better real world performance?


Of course energy isn't the only factor
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:20:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:21:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


You should publish that because it hasn’t really been been shown in any other studies.

Worked for the government most of my life as well, so it doesn’t really impress me much. Sorry.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By shotar:

You want my notes from actual shooting investigations? I'll be at the office tomorrow,  you're welcome to stop by. Wear a mask, government building.


You should publish that because it hasn’t really been been shown in any other studies.

Worked for the government most of my life as well, so it doesn’t really impress me much. Sorry.


Those ois are probably pretty similar to every other agency's. Including the fbi.
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 4:29:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By shotar:

Yes, they did, but I always heard stories of frame cracking.
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Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By 03RN:


Aluminum 1911s exist and weigh less than the g20.

Iirc 10mm edges out the .45 super by a little but its far from "far superior".

Yes, they did, but I always heard stories of frame cracking.


Im sure it happens but its not a huge concern. Right up there with glocks kabooming
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 5:10:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 5:11:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 5:58:14 PM EST
I carried various handguns when I was a police officer including a series 70 Colt Government Model, a Beretta 92f, and a Glock 22. 1911 is my favorite to shoot and I shoot it slightly better than the others.  My current carry gun is a Kimber CDP II Ultra.

At the time I carried them I believed each of them was up to the task.  Use what you think will get the job done.
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 8:40:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By shotar:

Pretty much. The data gets aggregated.  

The FBI never concluded that all things were equal, only that with modern ammo, 9mm was adequate for their purposes.

Our guys have a choice of 9 or 40. Most of our road guys carry 40. Det admin sro, 9mm.

Our swat guys seem to favor long slide glock 40s.
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Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By 03RN:


Those ois are probably pretty similar to every other agency's. Including the fbi.

Pretty much. The data gets aggregated.  

The FBI never concluded that all things were equal, only that with modern ammo, 9mm was adequate for their purposes.

Our guys have a choice of 9 or 40. Most of our road guys carry 40. Det admin sro, 9mm.

Our swat guys seem to favor long slide glock 40s.


I get the switch back to 9mm for large groups. Less wear on guns, better qual scores for inexperienced shooters, cheaper ammo, good performance. I dont get people conflating all that with terminal performance as good as other options.
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 9:30:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 10:05:40 PM EST
I hate 1911's so.........
However I do own 2. A GI model.45 & a double stack 10MM.
Link Posted: 12/28/2020 10:06:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ztug:
When I feel the need to carry more than my pocket pistol I carry a double stack. 45


https://i.imgur.com/1SbLKPq.jpg
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I used to carry one of these, great gun
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 1:12:05 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


It’s not like that anymore.
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We’re in agreement...I said was
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 4:33:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 03RN:


Aluminum 1911s exist and weigh less than the g20.

[color=#0000ff]Iirc 10mm edges out the .45 super by a little but its far from "far superior".
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[/color]

True and agreed 03RN... a 220 grain 10mm pushing 1200 fps has a hair over 700ft lbs of energy at the muzzle and a .45Super 255 grain pushing almost 1100 produces 655ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle so it's almost negligible.  Then factor in sectional density and meplate width involved and one would be hard pressed to say which one is superior in performance just like you say!

I carry an Aluminum Alloy frame 4" slide/barreled, lightweight 1911 sometimes... I don't feel undergunned because I can carry 8+1 or 10+1 with thin and comfortable to carry reloads. Nothing points like a 1911, it's very slim, comfortable, concealable, and the trigger is a great design that usually rocks worked over polymer triggers due to it's short travel/single action design...  
I honestly believe I can pull my 1911 Springfield Operator into action and on target faster than I ever could my normal carry Cz-P-01 from their same dedicated M-Tac leather/kydex shell holsters for each; and be on target faster; because of the high grip I can get on the 1911 and its longer length grip than the double stack CZ's grip I carry mostly; the 1911's Slim-Line Vz (Aliens and matching bushings), and aforementioned super natural pointability and single action trigger.

The Cz P-01 is carried most days however and has been since 2013'. It's capacity is 14+1 and 16+1 with slightly extended baseplate bottoms. It's also especially thin; (albeit with a shorter double stack grip), with the slim-line  (VZ Diamondbacks)  but doesn't exactly have the same pointability and certainly doesn't share the typical 1911 single action trigger. Both have been equally reliable... so the only area the P-01 beats the 1911 is with it's mag capacity that can be somewhat mitigated by the 1911's faster draw time and also getting on target quicker while squeezing that short action SAO trigger... I've been training with both back to back for the last 8 years. And Of Course, YMMV...
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 4:28:44 PM EST
I switch between Ruger 1911 9 mm, and CZ P10C. Both work well, I never feel that I am at a disadvantage with either. With the Ruger I carry 2 extra 10 round magazines, and with the cz one extra mag.  That "should" be enough for 99% of situations that take place.  Both function 100%, and I shoot both well enough considering my shakey stance and shitty eye site.
Link Posted: 12/29/2020 4:44:14 PM EST
Love the 1911 and carry one now. I carried Glock 23/ Glock 19 for duty before I retired. I hate the Glock. I can shoot it and shoot it well, but it's a brick. But I agree with most of the hive here 1911 great show piece and CCW, but striker fired Large capacity for duty use.
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 5:40:52 PM EST
What amazes me is people still argue over pistol calibers when over 80% of those who are shot with a handgun (Of any caliber) survive.

So why would I want  less ammunition in my gun, when I can have more, so that I have a better opportunity to get accurate hits before I need to reload. and have the added benefit of less recoil to aid me in that goal.

Even CAG switched from 45ACP to .40 to 9mm.... what does that tell you???

1911's are for enthusiast's....or for those who still buy into the Myth. take your pick.
The Only reason to carry a 1911, is if you live in a 10 rd. only state.
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 7:06:47 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
What amazes me is people still argue over pistol calibers when over 80% of those who are shot with a handgun (Of any caliber) survive.

So why would I want  less ammunition in my gun, when I can have more, so that I have a better opportunity to get accurate hits before I need to reload. and have the added benefit of less recoil to aid me in that goal.

Even CAG switched from 45ACP to .40 to 9mm.... what does that tell you???

1911's are for enthusiast's....or for those who still buy into the Myth. take your pick.
The Only reason to carry a 1911, is if you live in a 10 rd. only state
.
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You mean besides ergonomics, trigger pull, external safeties, etc.? Improved trigger pull and ergonomics can lead to increased probability of getting accurate hits.
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 9:18:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:

The Only reason to carry a 1911, is if you live in a 10 rd. only state.
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I agree with this ^^^
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 9:43:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2020 9:58:23 PM EST by BackCat]
It's a matter of personal preference. I'd wager that people EDC single stacks vs doubles anyway especially over the past decade. All these millions of gun owners have not been slaughtered because of it. I have not once heard of an epidemic of American gun owners who were carrying single stacks or revolver running out of ammo during a gun fight, and being killed or shot afterwards. The only place I hear all the hypothetical gun fights with a pack of armed thugs, drug cartels, mass shooters, and terrorists or on gun forums. In reality, a 1911 or the like and maybe a spare mag for good measure is more than enough unless you're L.E. or living in a war zone.

It's funny how 1911s get ragged on but Shields, Ruger LCPs and EC9s, Walther PPS, Glock 43 and 48, so on and countless others do not get ragged on. Then if you're going to bring up weight, the fact that the 1911 weighs more makes it a supior shooter vs light weight polyer while still being easier to conceal vs a double stack. If you can carry the weigh and need more concealment, a 1911 excells. Whether one is better than the other is all personal based on which you shoot better and can comfortably carry and conceal.

Link Posted: 12/30/2020 10:07:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By EXCATM76:


You mean besides ergonomics, trigger pull, external safeties, etc.? Improved trigger pull and ergonomics can lead to increased probability of getting accurate hits.
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So you can't shoot a handgun well unless it has a 1911 trigger?

And what is more ergonomic then drawing and pressing a trigger?

Guys with great triggers miss all the time....
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 10:50:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:


So you can't shoot a handgun well unless it has a 1911 trigger?

And what is more ergonomic then drawing and pressing a trigger?

Guys with great triggers miss all the time....
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I can shoot a handgun well with a crappy DA trigger, I can shoot one with an excellent SA trigger better consistently, as can most anyone else. Why handicap yourself with a crappy trigger? Of course if you don’t shoot past 3 yards it doesn’t make much difference.

Ergonomics does not always equal simplicity. The 1911 is one of the easiest semi auto handguns to shoot well. It points natural for most people, the trigger can be superb, reset is very short, the controls can be manipulated easily by most people and the grip fits most people’s hands very well.

Guys with sights miss all the time. Should we, not bother with sights?
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 11:32:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By EXCATM76:


I can shoot a handgun well with a crappy DA trigger, I can shoot one with an excellent SA trigger better consistently, as can most anyone else. Why handicap yourself with a crappy trigger? Of course if you don’t shoot past 3 yards it doesn’t make much difference.

Ergonomics does not always equal simplicity. The 1911 is one of the easiest semi auto handguns to shoot well. It points natural for most people, the trigger can be superb, reset is very short, the controls can be manipulated easily by most people and the grip fits most people’s hands very well.

Guys with sights miss all the time. Should we, not bother with sights?
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I can tell you have never conducted marksmanship training with handguns. The 1911 was NOT an easy pistol to shoot. I ran my units handgun Quals for years and trying to get the majority of Soldiers to qualify with a 1911 was always a challenge.

Watching Soldiers forget to take the pistol off safe so there first jerk on the trigger nose dived the pistil was always a treat.
and the Slide safety was great, if you were right handed.



It was a statistical fact that once the Army switched to M9's the qualification scores jumped up dramatically as the average  shooter could handle the recoil of the M9 much better.
In the units I was in we saw it every year, The Majority of shooters still sucked shooting a handgun, they just happened to suck a little bit less with the M9.
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 11:40:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Creature:
The best of both worlds.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/153820/20200616_161127_jpg-1752015.JPG
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\\USP yes.  Or P2K, P30, VP9
Link Posted: 12/30/2020 11:55:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By threefeathers:

\\USP yes.  Or P2K, P30, VP9
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However I would like to carry one of these in 38 Super or 357 Sig.  
Link Posted: 12/31/2020 7:20:51 AM EST
Optimally neither.  I've had my fair share of both and the 1911 is a nice pistol with a good trigger, but I also feel that it would be the very last option, outside of perhaps a revolver, that I would ever use for carry purposes or even nightstand duty.  If you only shoot 1911's well then what that tells me is you suck at shooting handguns.

The double stack 9mm has much more advantage but luckily it's main problem, 9mm, can be fixed by choosing the Lord's caliber:   .40 S&W.

Link Posted: 12/31/2020 10:30:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:



I can tell you have never conducted marksmanship training with handguns. The 1911 was NOT an easy pistol to shoot. I ran my units handgun Quals for years and trying to get the majority of Soldiers to qualify with a 1911 was always a challenge.

Watching Soldiers forget to take the pistol off safe so there first jerk on the trigger nose dived the pistil was always a treat.
and the Slide safety was great, if you were right handed.



It was a statistical fact that once the Army switched to M9's the qualification scores jumped up dramatically as the average  shooter could handle the recoil of the M9 much better.
In the units I was in we saw it every year, The Majority of shooters still sucked shooting a handgun, they just happened to suck a little bit less with the M9.
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Hahahahaha.

I trained USAF personnel in the use of small arms, including the M9 and M11, everyday for 4 years. I’ve trained somewhere in the neighborhood of 20,000 people in the use of small arms and probably about 6,000 of those where trained to use a handgun.

A modern 1911 and USGI 1911 are night and day. There is a reason why people started modifying the 1911 decades ago.

You realize they make 1911s in 9mm right?


Link Posted: 12/31/2020 12:54:57 PM EST
Handgun calibers suck, so shoes the one that allows you to reliably hit your target and you can stand to carry.

I absolutely love 1911's. Carried them for years before switching to these god awful plastic guns 7-8yrs ago. I decided I needed capacity over caliber. First switched to a G21, but my large hands and short fingers made that a laughable experience. I then bought my first G19 and have been stuck there ever since. Hate is a sting word to describe my feeling about Glocks, but is sure as hell isn't love. Tried the big contenders only to be meh about them and sell them off. Yet I can pick up a GI 1911 and be perfectly aligned with the tiny GI sights every time.

I can get lazy and sloppy while shooting 1911's and the hits just keep ringing steel/punching paper. It has taken me most of a decade of near-exclusive shooting/carrying my glocks for me to feel OKish about my abilities with them. Trijicon RMR's have helped that immensely in the last 1.5yrs.

In the end, I do believe ammo quantity matters because handgun ammo is relatively even these days. But I also believe 1911's are more shootable than the crappy stagey creepy things that these striker guns call triggers. That's why I'm gonna go see if Scheels has any Staccato P's in stock today
Link Posted: 1/1/2021 1:04:19 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Harv24:



I can tell you have never conducted marksmanship training with handguns. The 1911 was NOT an easy pistol to shoot. I ran my units handgun Quals for years and trying to get the majority of Soldiers to qualify with a 1911 was always a challenge.

Watching Soldiers forget to take the pistol off safe so there first jerk on the trigger nose dived the pistil was always a treat.
and the Slide safety was great, if you were right handed.



It was a statistical fact that once the Army switched to M9's the qualification scores jumped up dramatically as the average  shooter could handle the recoil of the M9 much better.
In the units I was in we saw it every year, The Majority of shooters still sucked shooting a handgun, they just happened to suck a little bit less with the M9.
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally Posted By EXCATM76:


I can shoot a handgun well with a crappy DA trigger, I can shoot one with an excellent SA trigger better consistently, as can most anyone else. Why handicap yourself with a crappy trigger? Of course if you don’t shoot past 3 yards it doesn’t make much difference.

Ergonomics does not always equal simplicity. The 1911 is one of the easiest semi auto handguns to shoot well. It points natural for most people, the trigger can be superb, reset is very short, the controls can be manipulated easily by most people and the grip fits most people’s hands very well.

Guys with sights miss all the time. Should we, not bother with sights?



I can tell you have never conducted marksmanship training with handguns. The 1911 was NOT an easy pistol to shoot. I ran my units handgun Quals for years and trying to get the majority of Soldiers to qualify with a 1911 was always a challenge.

Watching Soldiers forget to take the pistol off safe so there first jerk on the trigger nose dived the pistil was always a treat.
and the Slide safety was great, if you were right handed.



It was a statistical fact that once the Army switched to M9's the qualification scores jumped up dramatically as the average  shooter could handle the recoil of the M9 much better.
In the units I was in we saw it every year, The Majority of shooters still sucked shooting a handgun, they just happened to suck a little bit less with the M9.


Not only have I. I've never blamed my students at my inability to teach.

The military's handgun qual and training has historically sucked. There are some very good schools no doubt. Thankfully Ive been through a couple because the initial USMC m9 training in 2003 suuuuucked.
Link Posted: 1/1/2021 12:41:16 PM EST
I have both to choose from and usually have one of each with me. An officer’s size 1911 holstered and a 9MM in my bag. No, it’s not a man purse. I will carry a Shield in 9 or 45 in the summer when it’s harder to conceal. I know the 9MM has come a long way and it’s the popular choice but I still like the 45 ACP.  I have swapped the barrel/ magazine in my M&P from 40 to 9 so it’s getting more bag time.
Link Posted: 1/1/2021 9:14:19 PM EST
If I could I would carry a 10.5 inch AR-15 Pistol in .223 with a red dot.  60 round P-Mag drum for the 1st mag for sure.  Like most of you, I love shooting 1911s and revolvers.  If I had to carry a pistol for duty, then it would be a Smith and Wesson M&P, Glock 17/19, or Sig P320.
Link Posted: 1/2/2021 4:14:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2021 4:15:33 AM EST by Space-Cadet]
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Originally Posted By shotar:


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.
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Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Cool.  Show me how it’s a lot better.


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.


Okay, KE = 0.5*mv^2

Neither generate enough kinetic energy to overcome the elasticity of flesh, so you're relying on expansion and penetration.

Given both calibers in duty/defensive loadings expand to roughly the same diameter and meet the FBI spec for penetration, what advantage are you getting from .40 for defensive use?
Link Posted: 1/2/2021 6:30:04 AM EST
Carry EDCx9

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Big Rig Master Race NH 2011

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I also have an OZ9c for those time I want to squeeze a crappy trigger

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Link Posted: 1/9/2021 9:50:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By jmreagan:


I carry an Aluminum Alloy frame 4" slide/barreled, lightweight 1911 sometimes... I don't feel undergunned because I can carry 8+1 or 10+1 with thin and comfortable to carry reloads. Nothing points like a 1911, it's very slim, comfortable, concealable, and the trigger is a great design that usually rocks worked over polymer triggers due to it's short travel/single action design...  


The Cz P-01 is carried most days however and has been since 2013'. It's capacity is 14+1 and 16+1 with slightly extended baseplate bottoms. It's also especially thin; (albeit with a shorter double stack grip), with the slim-line  (VZ Diamondbacks)  but doesn't exactly have the same pointability and certainly doesn't share the typical 1911 single action trigger.
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Agreed.  If CZ made an alloy frame SAO compact, I'd carry one of those. Or just an alloy frame Compact with traditional trigger and I could get an SAO trigger from CZ Custom.

Only hits count, and the natural pointablility and superior trigger of a 1911 means I will hit faster and more accurately.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 7:40:45 PM EST
I love my 1911, and it is my preferred pistol for a heavy concealed gun. But if I think there's a good chance I might have to use a pistol, I'm taking a modern, polymer frame, double stack 9mm.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 7:43:09 PM EST
Oh, I should clarify. If I think I might need to use a gun, it'll be a high capacity rifle. Pistol is a backup, or special circumstance gun.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 7:47:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By shotar:


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.
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Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Cool.  Show me how it’s a lot better.


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.

Energy/mass equivalence has nothing to do with terminal ballistics.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:43:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

Energy/mass equivalence has nothing to do with terminal ballistics.
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Just let him go, he’s rolling.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:46:51 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:

Energy/mass equivalence has nothing to do with terminal ballistics.
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Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Cool.  Show me how it’s a lot better.


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.

Energy/mass equivalence has nothing to do with terminal ballistics.


The more energy a projectile has the better chances it performs better after penetrating hard things.

There's some really good 9mm ammo out there. Hornady has the entire FBI tests on their website for their 135gr +p critical duty. Best presentation Ive seen a company do.

Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:48:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 03RN:


The more energy a projectile has the better chances it performs better after penetrating hard things.

There's some really good 9mm ammo out there. Hornady has the entire FBI tests on their website for their 135gr +p critical duty. Best presentation Ive seen a company do.

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Originally Posted By 03RN:
Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44:
Originally Posted By shotar:
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:


Cool.  Show me how it’s a lot better.


I don't have time to review every OIS or animal shooting I've dealt with over the last 30 years. Ballpark is 30% more 9mm fired to stop action over .40. That includes people and wounded deer. For a scientific explanation the formula is E=Mc2.  .40 has more E=Mc2 than 9.

Energy/mass equivalence has nothing to do with terminal ballistics.


The more energy a projectile has the better chances it performs better after penetrating hard things.

There's some really good 9mm ammo out there. Hornady has the entire FBI tests on their website for their 135gr +p critical duty. Best presentation Ive seen a company do.


And what does that have to do with energy/mass equivalence?
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