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Link Posted: 5/22/2008 4:05:34 PM EDT

Quoted:

I don't believe you because I did the same test on my 5-7 pistol and couldn't dent a primer. I measured 1/16" slide offset, or approximately 0.06" with my calipers and my pistol did not touch the primer after several attempts.


The guy just posted a video of a 5-7 firing out of battery and measured it with calipers and you don't believe it because you can't replicate it? I'm going to start playing the lottery because if they can win so can I.

Seriously, why would someone put a video of their own weapon failing a test if it was not true? No one likes to have weapons that can be dangerous to the user but I'm glad some people inform others when they do.

I'm not speculating as to whether or not the gun fired out of battery or if the reloads were fucked up, especially as I know NOTHING about reloading, but if someone puts up a video of their own 5-7 firing out of battery I'm gonna believe it.

The barrel is not out of battery at that distance, for one.  For two, I tested my pistol and measured with my calipers and it didn't fire with the slide offset beyond 1/16".

Do you have a 5-7? Test it.  You don't have to take my word for it, and you don't have to believe the video.

ETA: To get the measurement correct.
Link Posted: 6/12/2008 12:40:53 PM EDT
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I thought some of you might be interested in FNH's findings:


Subject: Five-seveN serial # 386102425

Date: 6-9-2008

The following conclusions are results from FNH USA's evaluation of the Five-seveN serial # 386102425 sent in to our service facility after a failure using reloaded ammunition.

Upon examination of this pistol we were able to determine that it did not fire "out of battery" and the catastrophic failure exhibited in this example was clearly caused by excessive cartridge pressure generated by reloaded ammunition.

Our examination showed that the shoulder of the case was separated from the rest of the cartridge and it was left in place inside the chamber. The position of this piece of brass shows that the handgun was in full battery when the reloaded cartridge was fire and the excessive pressure occurred. Another indicator that confirmed our findings is the primer extruded back into the firing pin hole and a portion of the case head was stuck to the breech face. This was caused by brass flow back into the leaded chamber indicator hole.

Additionally there was serious damage to the slide assembly which is clear evidence of excessive pressure. The lower edge of the breech face was peeled away and the slide itself was deformed from the excessive pressure. The pressure that caused this damage exceeded OEM ammunition standards.

The FN ballistics laboratory was able to duplicate the catastrophic failure almost identically with 2x the load data provided by the consumer. In this test the shoulder of the cartridge was left in the chamber at the same position as #386102425, the slide was damaged in the exact same way as #386102425, and the cartridge case head seperated in the same manner with the brass flowing into the loaded chamber indicator hole.

The design of the Five-seveN pistol, being a recoil operated delayed blow back system, has key parameters that prevent an "out of battery" firing.

Our established testing data indicates the firing pin will not strike the primer of a cartridge after .1180 inch. of rearward slide travel. With the slide moved rearward .1540 - .1545 inch. (true out of battery limit), it is impossible for the firing pin to strike the primer, at this point the trigger lever does not actuate the lever of the firing pin safety. It was also noted in our examination that the firing pin safety was still fully functional on Five-seveN #386102425.

It is FNH USA's finding that the catastrophic failure of Five-seveN #38610xxxx was due completely to excessive pressure caused by the reloaded ammunition and was not the result of an "out of battery" firing.

Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.

If you have lost or misplaced your owners manual please contact our customer service department at 703-288-3500 x122 for a replacement.


Tommy Thacker
Product Manager
FNH USA, LLC.
Link Posted: 6/12/2008 2:02:53 PM EDT
At least they offered a free replacement owners manual!
Link Posted: 6/12/2008 3:21:12 PM EDT
Not surprsing in the least.

EVERY single Kb caused by bad reloads is preceded with the loader/shooter saying how careful, how meticulous, and how stingent their reloading methods are.  Some accept that they fucked up, but some just can't accept they fact they aren't meant for reloading, haha.
Link Posted: 6/12/2008 3:42:08 PM EDT

Quoted:
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I thought some of you might be interested in FNH's findings:


Subject: Five-seveN serial # 386102425

Date: 6-9-2008

The following conclusions are results from FNH USA's evaluation of the Five-seveN serial # 386102425 sent in to our service facility after a failure using reloaded ammunition.

Upon examination of this pistol we were able to determine that it did not fire "out of battery" and the catastrophic failure exhibited in this example was clearly caused by excessive cartridge pressure generated by reloaded ammunition.

Our examination showed that the shoulder of the case was separated from the rest of the cartridge and it was left in place inside the chamber. The position of this piece of brass shows that the handgun was in full battery when the reloaded cartridge was fire and the excessive pressure occurred. Another indicator that confirmed our findings is the primer extruded back into the firing pin hole and a portion of the case head was stuck to the breech face. This was caused by brass flow back into the leaded chamber indicator hole.

Additionally there was serious damage to the slide assembly which is clear evidence of excessive pressure. The lower edge of the breech face was peeled away and the slide itself was deformed from the excessive pressure. The pressure that caused this damage exceeded OEM ammunition standards.

The FN ballistics laboratory was able to duplicate the catastrophic failure almost identically with 2x the load data provided by the consumer. In this test the shoulder of the cartridge was left in the chamber at the same position as #386102425, the slide was damaged in the exact same way as #386102425, and the cartridge case head seperated in the same manner with the brass flowing into the loaded chamber indicator hole.

The design of the Five-seveN pistol, being a recoil operated delayed blow back system, has key parameters that prevent an "out of battery" firing.

Our established testing data indicates the firing pin will not strike the primer of a cartridge after .1180 inch. of rearward slide travel. With the slide moved rearward .1540 - .1545 inch. (true out of battery limit), it is impossible for the firing pin to strike the primer, at this point the trigger lever does not actuate the lever of the firing pin safety. It was also noted in our examination that the firing pin safety was still fully functional on Five-seveN #386102425.

It is FNH USA's finding that the catastrophic failure of Five-seveN #38610xxxx was due completely to excessive pressure caused by the reloaded ammunition and was not the result of an "out of battery" firing.

Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.

If you have lost or misplaced your owners manual please contact our customer service department at 703-288-3500 x122 for a replacement.


Tommy Thacker
Product Manager
FNH USA, LLC.



Thanks, looks like another case of "my baby reloads culdn't do no harm!!!"
Link Posted: 6/12/2008 3:50:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/12/2008 3:52:33 PM EDT
For what it's worth, I believe FNH gave him a new 5-7 despite the fact it was his fault.  So ultimately he got what he wanted out of this whole stupid ordeal.
Link Posted: 6/12/2008 6:21:17 PM EDT
Huh, a double charge in a case that had been reloaded multiple times.  What a surprise.

I believe the term is "epic fail".
Link Posted: 6/13/2008 2:55:19 AM EDT
WOW,  
Link Posted: 6/13/2008 5:38:49 AM EDT

Quoted:
For what it's worth, I believe FNH gave him a new 5-7 despite the fact it was his fault.  So ultimately he got what he wanted out of this whole stupid ordeal.


On top of the fact that they presumably destroyed a third 5-7 testing the double charge theory? Real generous on FN Herstral's part.
Link Posted: 6/15/2008 6:34:45 AM EDT
Guess we'll be waiting awhile for the OP to come out and say "oops - sorry.  I fucked up and blew up my gun.  Sorry for starting this big shitstorm and blaming FN for my screw-up."

To the OP - since you blew up your gun and blamed everyone else but yourself (in a very public forum), man up and send the new gun back to FN and tell them how grateful you are for them taking care of you even though you cannot take responsibility for your own actions.
Link Posted: 6/15/2008 3:25:28 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
For what it's worth, I believe FNH gave him a new 5-7 despite the fact it was his fault.  So ultimately he got what he wanted out of this whole stupid ordeal.


On top of the fact that they presumably destroyed a third 5-7 testing the double charge theory? Real generous on FN Herstral's part.


Real generous.  Its a sad day when a corporation has stronger ethics then their customer.
Link Posted: 6/15/2008 7:54:19 PM EDT

I figured it was operator error. Too bad FNH gave the fuckstick a new gun.
Link Posted: 6/15/2008 11:08:31 PM EDT

Quoted:
Guess we'll be waiting awhile for the OP to come out and say "oops - sorry.  I fucked up and blew up my gun.  Sorry for starting this big shitstorm and blaming FN for my screw-up."

To the OP - since you blew up your gun and blamed everyone else but yourself (in a very public forum), man up and send the new gun back to FN and tell them how grateful you are for them taking care of you even though you cannot take responsibility for your own actions.


That account hasn't logged in since 5/16/2008
Link Posted: 6/16/2008 12:21:07 AM EDT
Interesting
Link Posted: 6/16/2008 5:41:43 AM EDT

Quoted:
That troll account hasn't logged in since 5/16/2008

According to Shipwreck over on FNForum, he's been on another gun forum trying to refute FN's claims.  I don't know which (I assume fiveseven forums).  He stated he's had case shoulder separations before without a KB, so it must be the gun firing out-of-battery, and that FN is lying about the true causes of his KB.  He's a real piece of work.
Link Posted: 6/16/2008 5:45:23 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
That troll account hasn't logged in since 5/16/2008

According to Shipwreck over on FNForum, he's been on another gun forum trying to refute FN's claims.  I don't know which (I assume fiveseven forums).  He stated he's had case shoulder separations before without a KB, so it must be the gun firing out-of-battery, and that FN is lying about the true causes of his KB.  He's a real piece of work.


Some people can't take responsibility for their actions.  Haven't you heard?  It's the new American way.
Link Posted: 6/16/2008 7:40:00 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
That troll account hasn't logged in since 5/16/2008

According to Shipwreck over on FNForum, he's been on another gun forum trying to refute FN's claims.  I don't know which (I assume fiveseven forums).  He stated he's had case shoulder separations before without a KB, so it must be the gun firing out-of-battery, and that FN is lying about the true causes of his KB.  He's a real piece of work.


Wow, I'd like to see a link if anyone has it.  Some people, sheesh.

edit - I assume this is it.  

www.fnforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=7781
Link Posted: 6/16/2008 7:56:53 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
That troll account hasn't logged in since 5/16/2008

According to Shipwreck over on FNForum, he's been on another gun forum trying to refute FN's claims.  I don't know which (I assume fiveseven forums).  He stated he's had case shoulder separations before without a KB, so it must be the gun firing out-of-battery, and that FN is lying about the true causes of his KB.  He's a real piece of work.


Wow, I'd like to see a link if anyone has it.  Some people, sheesh.

edit - I assume this is it.  

www.fnforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=7781

This is it, left cold:
http://fivesevenforum.net/showthread.php?t=17426&page=33
Seems this is where the whole thing originated.
Link Posted: 6/19/2008 7:41:25 PM EDT
Note to self: In the unlikely event that I ever buy a 5.7 no playing around with hot loads.
Link Posted: 6/20/2008 5:14:56 AM EDT

Quoted:
For those of you who do not believe me...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T_XQFzCyR8

This is a video provided to me by Ryan @ EliteAmmunition that shows the OOB firing with a primed empty case. The measurement reads 0.240inches I believe.

Here are some pictures of the distance the slide can be to the rear and fire along with the exposed case:
i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/06stiwagon/RIMG0012-1.jpg
i176.photobucket.com/albums/w198/06stiwagon/RIMG0016-1.jpg


Warmed up the links for the lazy ones.
Link Posted: 6/20/2008 1:28:53 PM EDT
Another update for today:

I picked up my package today, which ended up not being a package at all, but a UPS Express Envelope. Included were two letters from FN, one from Rick DeMilt (Senior VP of Sales and Marketing) and the other from Tommy Thacker (Product Manager).

The first letter reads:

Mr. [Fuzzy],

In an effort of best customer service relations, FNH USA, LLC. will replace your pistol at no charge and the replacement will be sent directly to you. This is a unique situation and not a precedent for the future.

Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.

If you have lost or misplaced your owner's manual please contact our customer service department at 703-228-1292.

Regards,



Rick DeMilt
Senior VP of Sales and Marketing
FNH USA, LLC

============

The second letter, note the bold red header is actually on the letter.

[quote=Tommy Thacker]
Warning

DANGER CAUSED BY RELOADED AMMUNITION!

Subject: Five-seveN serial # 386102425

Date: 6-9-2008

The following conclusions are results from FNH USA's evaluation of the Five-seveN serial # 386102425 sent in to our service facility after a failure using reloaded ammunition.

Upon examination of this pistol we were able to determine that it did not fire "out of battery" and the catastrophic failure exhibited in this example was clearly caused by excessive cartridge pressure generated by reloaded ammunition.

Our examination showed that the shoulder of the case was separated from the rest of the cartridge and it was left in place inside the chamber. The position of this piece of brass shows that the handgun was in full battery when the reloaded cartridge was fire and the excessive pressure occurred. Another indicator that confirmed our findings is the primer extruded back into the firing pin hole and a portion of the case head was stuck to the breech face. This was caused by brass flow back into the leaded chamber indicator hole.

Additionally there was serious damage to the slide assembly which is clear evidence of excessive pressure. The lower edge of the breech face was peeled away and the slide itself was deformed from the excessive pressure. The pressure that caused this damage exceeded OEM ammunition standards.

The FN ballistics laboratory was able to duplicate the catastrophic failure almost identically with 2x the load data provided by the consumer. In this test the shoulder of the cartridge was left in the chamber at the same position as #386102425, the slide was damaged in the exact same way as #386102425, and the cartridge case head seperated in the same manner with the brass flowing into the loaded chamber indicator hole.

The design of the Five-seveN pistol, being a recoil operated delayed blow back system, has key parameters that prevent an "out of battery" firing.

Our established testing data indicates the firing pin will not strike the primer of a cartridge after .1180 inch. of rearward slide travel. With the slide moved rearward .1540 - .1545 inch. (true out of battery limit), it is impossible for the firing pin to strike the primer, at this point the trigger lever does not actuate the lever of the firing pin safety. It was also noted in our examination that the firing pin safety was still fully functional on Five-seveN #386102425.

It is FNH USA's finding that the catastrophic failure of Five-seveN #38610xxxx was due completely to excessive pressure caused by the reloaded ammunition and was not the result of an "out of battery" firing.



Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.

If you have lost or misplaced your owners manual please contact our customer service department at 703-288-3500 x122 for a replacement.




Tommy Thacker
Product Manager
FNH USA, LLC.

=================

So from FNH's findings, the cause was excessive pressure caused by a double charge (~10grains of TrueBlue powder). Like everything both mechanical and human, there was an error. In all honestly I'm still not quite convinced that I double charged the load, but from their findings of excessive pressure that they were able to duplicate in almost the exact same manner, it is probably the result of a double charge.

I accept the findings of FNH's investigation and testing of the incident that happened to me on April 12, 2008. I accept full responsibility for the accident and hope that others can learn from my mistakes.

I also want to make clear that in my original post, my statements were based off of my observations and firearm at hand. [I kept the Five-seveN in the original condition it was in when the failure happened to preserve anything that might help in FNH's investigation and the only thing I did was handle it, I never tampered with(or cleaned) any part of the gun.] My original post was based on the lack of customer support I had received from FNH after my accident. I never asked FNH to replace my firearm for free, I merely asked if they would like to take the gun in for inspection.


I want to thank everyone here on the forum for their support and encouragement, also specifically Medula Oblongata, for the time he spent to help me figure this out, and Tommy Thacker who stepped up to the plate as FNH's Product Manager to take care of a situation that rocketed out of control.

Thanks everyone,
-f3rr37

*Also, I received the new Five-seveN USG on wednesday. If you have questions/concerns please post them here: FiveseveNForum Thread
Link Posted: 6/20/2008 3:06:03 PM EDT
W0W!!

They actually determined that it was your fault and they STILL sent you a new gun?? That really blows my mind. I'll definitely support a company like that with the purchase of a SCAR if I can get one before they're banned!
Link Posted: 6/21/2008 8:13:11 AM EDT

Quoted:
W0W!!

They actually determined that it was your fault and they STILL sent you a new gun?? That really blows my mind. I'll definitely support a company like that with the purchase of a SCAR if I can get one before they're banned!


FNH's Management is Top Notch. Buy any FNH product with confidence.

Rick DeMilt used to work for Colt back in the day. The CEO of Colt got bent and let him go because he made so many Sales that he pulled in more the Colts CEO. Ricks a great fellow. Rick is likely to have been the one to give the the order to give the customer a free replacement.

I also have a business relationship with Bob Ailes. Hes a to the point type of guy but does his best to accomidate every FNH customer.
Link Posted: 6/21/2008 6:45:01 PM EDT
A little late but praise God you are ok and nothing came back and hit you in the face etc...
That could have been much worse...

Link Posted: 6/21/2008 7:11:43 PM EDT
Hey...  Your litght-rail is still ok.  
Link Posted: 6/25/2008 5:40:18 PM EDT
KB'd his 5.7 due to faulty reloads and FN still replaced it, WOW. This makes me want to buy an FN just to support this top notch company.
Link Posted: 6/25/2008 6:09:05 PM EDT
I might buy an FN just because of the way they resolved this.  AAC on the other hand . . .
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