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Posted: 3/12/2006 6:15:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 3:01:15 PM EST by wolfgang12]
During last summer I bought a Kel-Tec P3AT and some personal defense "defender" ammo produced by MagSafe. I often practiced with my Kel-Tec at the range using standard Federal American Eagle, but due to the extreme cost, never fired the MagSafe ammo. I carried concealed with MagSafe in the magazine and chamber for 9 months due to their claims for stopping power and safety.

Three weeks ago I was at the range and decided to try the MagSafe. On the first shot, the back of the cartridge peeled apart like a grape. The magazine blew out the bottom of the pistol, the slide bent and blew off the top, the frame split on the left side and every rivet blew out. My hand was blackened like in a bad Roadrunner/Wiley Coyote movie, but not injured. The gun collapsed into a pile of debris.

My gunsmith called MagSafe and was told OH YEAH. WE'VE BLOWN UP TWO OF THOSE PISTOLS WITH OUR AMMO. WE NOW HAVE A STICKER ON THE PACKAGE THAT SAYS DO NOT USE WITH KEL-TEC P3AT. They said their ammo is extremely hot and exceeds SAMI specs (though it's not marked +P or +P+). Then they seemed to get personal about my level of intelligence and ability to read. Note, there was no warning sticker about the P3AT on the package I bought last year.

Kel-Tec was concerned immediately, and indicated that the gun is designed to break down under a KB such as this to protect the shooter by dissipating the force of the explosion. They wanted to examine the parts to learn from this accident. They offered complete replacement of the gun, even though it was clearly the over-juiced ammo at fault.

Thursday the brand new replacement arrived with the same serial number as the destroyed gun, so I don't have a lot of registraion gymnastics to do here in the Peoples' Republik of New York.

Thank you Kel-Tec, for your concern and for the outstanding positive customer relations you demonstrated.

MagSafe will never ride in my guns again, as my opinion is that it is unsafe.




Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:04:56 PM EST
Thanks for posting this Wolfgang. I noticed when looking at a round placed in the chamber of mine, there is a lot of unsuported cartridge in the area by the ramp. I suspect that is the place the case blew out.

I wonder even though we don't have an official moderator for this forum, if we can get one of the other mods to pin this thread. Seems like one to leave up top.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:11:11 PM EST
That's where it blew out. They use Remington brass, but state that it is not once-fired.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:29:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 8:32:44 PM EST by OODA_Loop]
I think mag-safe is a solution looking for a problem, and you would be better served by Speer gold-dot, Federal HS, Golden Saber, or any other modern 9mm JHP made by a major manufacturer.

www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm

www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm


But it's good to know that Kel-Tec took care of you, and that you're ok.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:36:09 PM EST
Because of all the stories I've heard of Kel-Tec's customer service, when I get he money, I will be purchasing 1 maybe 2 of their new 9mms coming out.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:37:22 PM EST
I have read a story like this elsewhere. One more reason to avoid Magsafe's overpriced, overhyped ammo. Shame on you wolfgang12 for not putting at least 50 rounds of this ammo through your P3AT before carrying it. Can't say I blame you for not wanting to spend $100+ for the trial run, though. All this for 4-5" of penetration. BTW, Magsafe is not the same as MagTech (for those who might confuse the two).
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:42:44 PM EST
Dayum! Glad you are OK! I'm glad you arent out your blster, too. Did you get any pictures?
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:46:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By ThePirate:
I have read a story like this elsewhere. One more reason to avoid Magsafe's overpriced, overhyped ammo. Shame on you wolfgang12 for not putting at least 50 rounds of this ammo through your P3AT before carrying it. Can't say I blame you for not wanting to spend $100+ for the trial run, though. All this for 4-5" of penetration.

Try some Speer Gold Dots or some CorBon DPX.

BTW, Magsafe is not the same as MagTech (for those who might confuse the two).



ThePirate is right. I should have tried the MagSafe right away.

...and I should have found a good lawyer, too.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 8:50:23 PM EST
Thankfully, you weren't hurt badly. Since Kel-Tec is taking care of your gun, it is a pretty inexpensive lesson when you think about it. Something all of us can learn from.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:35:07 PM EST
My P3AT likes Winchester Ranger T hollow points just fine. I'll stick with 'em. As to the lawyer, they'd have gone more after Kel Tech than Mag Safe possibly. Both for sure. Fortunately, you wern't hurt, but the lawyers might not have felt that way. They'd probably prefer an injury for the potential awards I'd guess. Anyway, alls well that ends well. Hopefully, others will benefit from your troubles.

I've PM'd one of the handgun mods to see if we can get this tacked. Thanks again!
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 10:42:05 PM EST
Kel-Tec will definitely be getting some of my money this year. I have heard nothing but good things about their products and their customer service.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:19:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By TBoneDetroit:
My P3AT likes Winchester Ranger T hollow points just fine. I'll stick with 'em. As to the lawyer, they'd have gone more after Kel Tech than Mag Safe possibly. Both for sure. Fortunately, you wern't hurt, but the lawyers might not have felt that way. They'd probably prefer an injury for the potential awards I'd guess. Anyway, alls well that ends well. Hopefully, others will benefit from your troubles.



Nothing wrong with the performance of the Ranger Ts, if you can get them.

If Magsafe's ammo exceeds SAAMI specs as per wolfgang12, it wouldn't be Kel-Tec that is liable IMO. As you said, the real issue is the damages - since the injury wasn't serious, it probably isn't worth the effort of a lawsuit.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 5:45:23 PM EST
I'm impressed with the gun manufacture's response.
That is a class act!
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 5:50:15 PM EST
Good info, Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/14/2006 5:58:06 PM EST
Thats good of Kel-Tec agreeing to replace your pistol. But since it was magsafe that blew up your gun, I'd insist they replace it. Probably won't work out, but it'd make me feel better
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 6:31:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By wolfgang12:

Originally Posted By ThePirate:
I have read a story like this elsewhere. One more reason to avoid Magsafe's overpriced, overhyped ammo. Shame on you wolfgang12 for not putting at least 50 rounds of this ammo through your P3AT before carrying it. Can't say I blame you for not wanting to spend $100+ for the trial run, though. All this for 4-5" of penetration.

Try some Speer Gold Dots or some CorBon DPX.

BTW, Magsafe is not the same as MagTech (for those who might confuse the two).



ThePirate is right. I should have tried the MagSafe right away.

...and I should have found a good lawyer, too.



It ain't too late.... call Jon Gutmacher

This dude is gun friendly and damn good. He helped a friend of mine out of a real jam last year .
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 2:50:21 PM EST
Why would he sue? The gun is being replaced, no one was hurt....last thing this world needs is one more lawsuit.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:21:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By pfccypret:
Why would he sue? The gun is being replaced, no one was hurt....last thing this world needs is one more lawsuit.



I don't think it will be worth his time for a bruised hand, but you never know. The link is a good one to have, especially for anyone who lives in Florida and carries. Good reference FB41.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 5:35:21 PM EST
That's just one of the reasons that I'm a fan, and customer, of George. He stands by his product line. Unlike some companies I won't mention that go by the philosophy that if the gun breaks into two pieces, you now own both halves.

I met George on one occasion, and had a very good conversation. It was at the SHOT Show in ATL and they were showing the (new at that time) P32. Which I bought as soon as it was available. I've owned 5 KT pistols, and #6 is the PLR16 (shoots .223/AR mags) that I'll be picking up in about a week.
Link Posted: 3/15/2006 10:21:47 PM EST
When you take into consideration how many guns they actually sell, their customer service reputation is even more remarkable. It just stands to reason that the more customers you have, the more problems you will hear about. Yet practically all the reports indicate the highest level of service. Amazing.

My next pistol will be a PF-9, but I would like a PLR-16 eventually.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 8:41:51 AM EST
Yes, I'm sold on Kel-Tec. Great service has built many empires, including IBM's. I will own many Kel-Tecs in the future.

Bad customer relations will kill a product just as fast as a bad product. That's why I cannot understand MagSafe's extremely negative response.
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 4:11:52 PM EST
Agreed with the above, I have been extremely happy with Kel-Tec.

I will get a P-11 one day (I have a couple things before it on my list)
Link Posted: 3/16/2006 9:53:15 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:45:56 PM EST
damn! glad you're ok. yet another reason i will be buying my second Kel Tec this week. Those guys are AWESOME!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 6:09:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/30/2006 11:21:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/30/2006 11:25:54 PM EST by KCMojo]
Thanks for the info and pics. Glad you are not hurt.

Happy with my new Sub 2000 that I picked up Sat!

Standing behind their produts, that is what I love about my Rugers and now Kel-Tec!
Link Posted: 5/6/2006 7:12:31 PM EST
Kel-tec is a great company for taking care of you on that pistol. Too bad mag safe isnt the same way.
Link Posted: 6/23/2006 2:29:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
... for the record most of us that have been shooting awhile highly regard magsafe as complete crap ammo anyway...



What? Don't you know that they offer the very best performance against Alpine mountain goats?!?!
Link Posted: 6/23/2006 2:34:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/10/2006 4:02:23 PM EST
Wow, interesting story - glad Keltec made good, even if they didn't have to!



Visit: www.handgunforum.net/
Link Posted: 7/10/2006 4:12:41 PM EST
a) I don't know what persuaded you to buy magsafe. I don't see it on ANYONE'S list of suitable defense ammo's (yet it is ALWAYS in gunstores- tells you more about profit margin than stopping power).

b) kel tec customer service was just as quick, kind with me as well when I sent my P11 back to make it drop free. they shipped it back on their dime and did the whole job for free.

this is awesome!

Thursday the brand new replacement arrived with the same serial number as the destroyed gun, so I don't have a lot of registraion gymnastics to do here in the Peoples' Republik of New York.
Link Posted: 7/14/2006 3:22:45 PM EST
Glad to see you were not hurt. I had an issue with my P32 caused by me, sent it to Kel-Tec and it was repaired and shipped back to me at no charge. They have great customer service and have earned a loyal customer.
Link Posted: 9/27/2006 11:20:30 AM EST
KEL-TEC has been so good lately, The replaced my mag catch button on my P3AT for free and even gave me another one.
Link Posted: 9/27/2006 11:38:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/27/2006 11:39:08 AM EST by AJ-IN-JAX]
NOTE TO SELF: Don't use Mag(UN)Safe ammo.

-----

I just checked their website, you'd think they'd put some type of warning saying not to use this ammo in a Kel-Tec.
Link Posted: 9/28/2006 6:42:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By rogue007:
KEL-TEC has been so good lately, The replaced my mag catch button on my P3AT for free and even gave me another one.

They now have a sticker on the pack that reads "DO NOT USE IN KELTEC P3AT"
Link Posted: 9/28/2006 9:07:54 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2006 10:20:49 PM EST
It should read: "way out of SAAMI spec, enjoy your hand grenade".
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 7:46:01 PM EST
Wow, I am glad I didnt buy any magsafe for mine! I had no idea. I had some for my .45 Glock 36, but my funshop advised me on DPX ammo so I switched to that for defense ammo. I am wondering if I want to toss that stuff out now or what. I dont want to kill my 36, its my first pistol, my favorite gun, and my carry gun! I also have a P32 in a wallet holster now, for when I want to carry two guns or cant carry my 36.

Once again thanks for lookin out!!
Link Posted: 10/7/2006 9:05:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/17/2006 12:44:24 AM EST
I've been carrying my keltec for a year or so, pretty accurate for a mouse gun.
Works like a charm , hides well too :)
Link Posted: 12/17/2006 1:15:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2006 1:16:06 AM EST by okguy91]
Link Posted: 12/28/2006 10:18:48 PM EST
All the Kel-tecs I have owned have been great! P-11 and p-32 my sister has a p-32 and many friend have bought them after trying mine or just being introducted to it! as far as that Mag safe ammo Any 380 pistol except for the colt mustang 380 is a blow back design so that hat of a ammo in most of these pistol is not good. They are going to hurt somebody!!!! Wheres the BATF when you need them
Link Posted: 12/29/2006 11:23:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 6:47:29 PM EST
This kinda reminds me about the warning in my P7M8 manual. It says, quote" Caution: There is an influx of surplus 9mmx19 ammunition on the American market. Do not use 9mmx19 ammunition specifically loaded for Submachine Guns." This MagSafe stuff looks like it goes beyond the boundaries of even the hottest +P+ to duplicate ammo that is used in older open-bolt sub-guns. Even though we're talking about 380, HK must have had a bonefide excuse where even this all steel gun could be damaged if using 9mm military ammo made for an Uzi.
Link Posted: 6/9/2007 1:00:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/9/2007 10:15:05 AM EST by Cannonball888]
Dang.
Now I want to replace the rounds in my FIE Titan II.

Anyone want six Magsafe .380 rounds real cheap PM me.
Link Posted: 6/9/2007 9:56:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/26/2007 3:04:18 PM EST
If they are built like glaser-safety slugs they get the extra velocity because the bullets are so much lighter.That bullet appears to have not gone into full battery, leaving an unsupported area right at the feed ramp.Which might also be the reason they are replacing your pistol. I've shot six glasers through my P-11 with nary problem[New Years eve accident, forgot which magazine I had in the gun]. Also several through 44mag, 45acp and 7.62x39. In larger calibers they are awesome on water filled targets i.e. 10 gal. pickle bucket....
Link Posted: 7/15/2007 5:19:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2007 6:55:09 PM EST by FlDiveCop71]
TAG...
Link Posted: 7/15/2007 5:46:22 AM EST
It is only Kel-Tec's issue if the ammo was within the SAAMI pressure specs for .380ACP, which do not include a "+P" or "+P+" standard, BTW. Every knowledgeable opinion I have heard on the subject is that MagSafe loads this round waaay over the limit. Could have something to do with why MS hasn't sued KT.

Look at the the other loads available in .380, especially the hot ones by CorBon and tell me how the MagSafe is so much hotter and still somehow magically within pressure limits. Funny how no one else's ammo, even "boutique" ammo by CorBon/Glaser and Extreme Shock () doesn't seem to be a problem in a Kel-Tec.

IMO, you can add the word "dangerous" to "expensive" and "over hyped" when discussing MagSafe.
Link Posted: 7/15/2007 6:51:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/23/2007 7:06:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/23/2007 7:09:54 PM EST by Clarkma]
I have hot rod handloaded overloaded to see how much power I could get in:
P32
P3AT
P11
PF0
P357Sig barrel in P40
P40

A) The P32, P11, and PF9 can easily double their power with hotter loads.
B) The P357 and P40 can go up ~20%.
C) But the P3AT is not going anywhere. It already is hot rod over loaded in many ways with factory SAAMI ammo.

I own my weight in handguns, but I carry a P3AT, becuase if makes such big holes for how much is weighs.

The P3AT is out of case support and on the raged edge of a case bulge with SAAMI pressures.
The P3AT is out of safety margin with the thin chamber walls. It is the only pistol with thinner walls than a CZ52.
The P3AT is not capable of any more bullet + gas momentum to be absorbed in the slide mass + barrel mass+ recoil springs + distributed mass and compliance of the shooter's hand.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=17412&d=1097451713
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