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Posted: 8/29/2009 10:08:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 6:04:02 PM EDT by BIG_PAPA]
I bought 200 rds of critical defense from Midway USA. 100 9mm and 100 .38spl.

I had loaded 7 rds into my Kahr PM9 when I got the ammo about 3-4 weeks ago and I have been carrying daily with it.

Went to the range today. Pulled the gun from the holster and started shooting just like if it were a self defense situation.

BANG, BANG, BANG, CLICK!!!!

WTF???? My PM9 has been 100% reliable. No FTF's no stovepipes, nothing.

SO I rack the slide and out pops an unfired round that was perfectly seated in the chamber.

The primer has a NICE, DEEP dimple where the pin has hit. NOT GOOD.

I start again with the remaining rounds that were in the gun.

BANG, CLICK!!!!

Uh, Oh. I manually eject the chambered round and find the same thing, a nice deep dimple in the primer on the unfired round.

BANG, the last round fires propery.

This is not good.

I load the rest of the 2 boxes I had brought to test and all 43 go through fine with no problems at all.

So now i guess i have to wait untill monday to contact Hornady, but I have ZERO confidence in this ammo now. I spent like $175 with shipping on thee 200 rounds. I certainly won't let my wife carry them in her revolver after this.

Maybe the 2 rounds that didn't fire were affected by pocket carry, but isn't this stuff supposed to be CARRY ammo?

I have never had an issue with ammo carried in my pocket before. I had carried Gold dots that fired perfect when tested after a year in my pocket.

MORAL OF THE STORY––––NEVER carry with ammo you haven't first tested!!!

I will post an update to what Hornady says on monday, but i am going to ask for my money back and I am going to find a different carry ammo.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 10:41:07 AM EDT
Yeah, im with you on that....if it had just been one round that wouldve been different.

But also remember that ANY ammo can be susceptible to misfires....keep your failure drills fresh in your mind and practice them regularly.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 10:55:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BIG_PAPA:
MORAL OF THE STORY––––NEVER carry with ammo you haven't first tested!!!





Saying silly stuff like that will get you a lot of heat on a website like this.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 11:04:31 AM EDT
As soon as I saw this.....

Originally Posted By BIG_PAPA:
I bought 200 rds of critical defense from Midway USA. 100 9mm and 100 .38spl.

I had loaded 7 rds into my Kahr PM9 when I got the ammo about 3-4 weeks ago and I have been carrying daily with it.



The first thing I thought was this......




MORAL OF THE STORY––––NEVER carry with ammo you haven't first tested!!!



Link Posted: 8/29/2009 11:39:16 AM EDT
Moral # 2; select your carry/self defense ammunition from among that which is listed on the ammo faq.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 11:57:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 12:14:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 12:14:50 PM EDT by DOGDRIVER]
Originally Posted By CTbuilder1:
As soon as I saw this.....

Originally Posted By BIG_PAPA:
I bought 200 rds of critical defense from Midway USA. 100 9mm and 100 .38spl.

I had loaded 7 rds into my Kahr PM9 when I got the ammo about 3-4 weeks ago and I have been carrying daily with it.



The first thing I thought was this......






MORAL OF THE STORY––––NEVER carry with ammo you haven't first tested!!!





THIS!!!!!
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 12:20:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 12:20:58 PM EDT by uglygun]
Can happen with any ammo, there is a statistical probability for ALL manufactures that there is a chance that this can happen.

Deal with it, get the gun working, keep shooting. Good experience, learn from it and next time it happens keep the gun going and evaluate what happened afterwards.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 12:30:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 1:19:04 PM EDT
1. Only rounds in the weapon malfunctioned.
2. We do not know how much lube was used.
3. I find it odd that the failure rate is so high in the ammo in the weapon yet perfect for the nex 43 rounds––not in the weapon.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 2:01:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
1. Only rounds in the weapon malfunctioned.
2. We do not know how much lube was used.
3. I find it odd that the failure rate is so high in the ammo in the weapon yet perfect for the nex 43 rounds––not in the weapon.


Yeah that is strange.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 2:17:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 2:43:43 PM EDT
The first review ay midway describes the same problem: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=388966

I initially purchased 100 rounds of this ammo and fired 75 rounds through my Springfield EMP 9mm on the first outing. I experienced 2 malfunctions occurring in the last 9 rounds, (last magazine) of the 75 rounds that I fired. One malfunction was due to a bur at the tip of the bullet near the red insert, which caused a failure to feed. I removed and inspected the round, then re-chambered it and it fed and fired normally. The second malfunction was a dud primer causing a failure to fire. I removed the round and inspected it. It had a good primer strike but failed to fire. I recently purchased another box to see if it would function 100%, or experience similar problems. I noticed that the primers in this new box had been changed from the nickel primers that were in the first 100 rounds that I bought to brass/gold primers in this new box. All 25 rounds from this new box functioned and fired perfectly through my Springfield EMP. I called Hornady and asked them about the primer change and I was told that limited supply dictated the use of the nickel primers. I was also told that there had been some reports about the nickel primers being too hard and not igniting in some firearms and that they had since changed to the brass/gold primers that will be shipping from now on. Given the current state of the ammo market with ammo manufactures operating 24/7 to try and catch up with the ammo shortage, coupled with the fact that this is a new product line, I feel confident that Hornady will have any quality control issues sorted out and that this will be an excellent product. I will continue to test this ammo and report back if I experience any additional problems.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 4:13:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
1. Only rounds in the weapon malfunctioned. Yes, but before this my PM9 has been literally 100% reliable and with ammo carried much longer than 3-4 weeks
2. We do not know how much lube was used. This weapon is not heavily lubed - I pocket carry it and do not want drips in my pockets. No lube was on ammo or primers. Also the top 4 were fine. If there was enough oil in the gun to ruin primers (highly unlikely) wouldn't it be the top rounds closest to the oil?
3. I find it odd that the failure rate is so high in the ammo in the weapon yet perfect for the nex 43 rounds––not in the weapon. I found it odd aslo, that was the point for my post


Link Posted: 8/29/2009 4:15:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WMR:
The first review ay midway describes the same problem: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=388966

I initially purchased 100 rounds of this ammo and fired 75 rounds through my Springfield EMP 9mm on the first outing. I experienced 2 malfunctions occurring in the last 9 rounds, (last magazine) of the 75 rounds that I fired. One malfunction was due to a bur at the tip of the bullet near the red insert, which caused a failure to feed. I removed and inspected the round, then re-chambered it and it fed and fired normally. The second malfunction was a dud primer causing a failure to fire. I removed the round and inspected it. It had a good primer strike but failed to fire. I recently purchased another box to see if it would function 100%, or experience similar problems. I noticed that the primers in this new box had been changed from the nickel primers that were in the first 100 rounds that I bought to brass/gold primers in this new box. All 25 rounds from this new box functioned and fired perfectly through my Springfield EMP. I called Hornady and asked them about the primer change and I was told that limited supply dictated the use of the nickel primers. I was also told that there had been some reports about the nickel primers being too hard and not igniting in some firearms and that they had since changed to the brass/gold primers that will be shipping from now on. Given the current state of the ammo market with ammo manufactures operating 24/7 to try and catch up with the ammo shortage, coupled with the fact that this is a new product line, I feel confident that Hornady will have any quality control issues sorted out and that this will be an excellent product. I will continue to test this ammo and report back if I experience any additional problems.


My Primers are Brass
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 4:16:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Zhukov:

Originally Posted By uglygun:
Can happen with any ammo, there is a statistical probability for ALL manufactures that there is a chance that this can happen.

Deal with it, get the gun working, keep shooting. Good experience, learn from it and next time it happens keep the gun going and evaluate what happened afterwards.

In all fairness. ONE dud primer would be a coincidence. Several in a box is a serious issue that Hornady needs to be made aware of. Hornady doesn't make primers, but they need to figure out if it's systemic with that lot and do a recall if that's the case. People buy ammo called CRITICAL DEFENSE for a reason.




Agreed, and given the fact that Hornady doesn't make primers it's worth investigating because god knows this could effect other production lines from other manufacturers.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 4:27:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 5:23:51 PM EDT by BIG_PAPA]
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 4:54:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 4:55:26 PM EDT by Lumpy196]


Thats not going to work.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 5:55:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2009 6:04:37 PM EDT by swmp9jrm]
The 100 rounds of 9mm CD that I just picked up from Ammo-to-Go have the brass/gold primers. I hate to have to shoot up the lot of them to see if I've got any problems ones, but I'm a little concerned about depending on these. I need to test them in my new Taurus PT-709 anyway, so I guess I'll run through these and see how they do.

Think I'll stick to my Hydra-Shoks and HSTs till this issue gets a little more fleshed out.
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 8:09:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
1. Only rounds in the weapon malfunctioned.
2. We do not know how much lube was used.
3. I find it odd that the failure rate is so high in the ammo in the weapon yet perfect for the nex 43 rounds––not in the weapon.


according to the op the primer was hit.

it's been pretty well proven even soaking ammo in lube doesn't affect primers it in general.


Understood

But it is still strange that the only defective rounds were ones stored in the mag/gun
Link Posted: 8/29/2009 11:43:18 PM EDT
Honestly those look like pretty light strikes to me. I'd be interested to see if they went off when fired from a different firearm.
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 12:09:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Honestly those look like pretty light strikes to me. I'd be interested to see if they went off when fired from a different firearm.


+1, I just now looked at it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 3:23:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Honestly those look like pretty light strikes to me. I'd be interested to see if they went off when fired from a different firearm.


+1, I just now looked at it.


Maybe the picture dosn't do it justice, but i assure you they are NOT light strikes. They are nice and deep. This gun has fired everything from personal defense to range ammo that I have put through it and never had an issue. Never.

I haven't tried them in a different gun becuase I imagine Hornady is going to want to see them when I tell them I want my money back.
Link Posted: 8/30/2009 4:51:06 AM EDT
It may be the photo, but they look a little light to me too. All are your primer strikes somewhat off-center like the ones in the photo? If not, perhaps these rounds were not fully in battery. I have had that happen with certain pistols and/or ammunition in the past, where the slide did not fully close and I got an off-center light strike and a FTF. I would try them again making certain that they were fully chambered. If they still fail to ignite, then you know for sure that the primers are at issue.

-Allen
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 5:03:03 PM EDT
I shot a box of 9mm Critical Defense through my Taurus PT-709 today. It's a new gun, but has about 200 rounds through it of 115 gr. FMJ of several brands (American Eagle, PMC, UMC, Golden Bear) and 50 rounds of 124 gr Federal Hydra-Shok - all rounds fired normally. The last thing I shot today was the CD. I was loading 5 rounds per magazine. First magazine: no problems. Second magazine: bang, bang, click. The 709 has a 2nd strike capability, so I got to try that out - it worked as Taurus advertises, and the round went bang. The rest of that magazine and the rest of the box fired normally. Based on this and on the similar posts in several forums, I'm a little concerned about carrying the CD. Think I'm going to stick to the Hydra-Shoks till this all gets shaken out.
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 7:36:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2009 7:36:56 PM EDT by JKirk]
This is the 4th story in less than a year that I have heard about Hornady Critical Defense ammo having reliability problems (2 in 9mm and 2 in 380). In all fairness I have shot 50 rounds through my Sig with no problems, but I won't carry it because of stories like this.
Link Posted: 8/31/2009 11:27:35 PM EDT
Wow, Certainly sounds like a widespread problem. Hornady should've been more cautious with their components choice. Something like this can kill an ammunition line(if not a person trying to utilize said ammo for self-defense) in a heartbeat.
I will purchase some of the bullets in .38 and 9mm if they become available, but will steer clear of the loaded ammunition.
Link Posted: 9/1/2009 12:31:56 AM EDT
why! if your life depends on somthing and you have those kind of problems fuck yes you should ALWAYS test the ammo be for you carry it
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By BIG_PAPA:
MORAL OF THE STORY––––NEVER carry with ammo you haven't first tested!!!





Saying silly stuff like that will get you a lot of heat on a website like this.
fore y

Link Posted: 9/7/2009 2:35:02 PM EDT
Hi folks.

I bought a 25 round box of CD .380 for a close friend about two weeks ago because they are pretty rare these days. He has a new Ruger LCP with less than a hundred rounds through it, and this afternoon he told me about two FTFs in that box, and he didn't fire but half of them. Two deep primer strikes but no bang. The second time they went off. I didn't get a color on the primers. I remembered reading this article a while back, and thought I'd drop a line to inform people of a possible trend. I realize that I'm the middle man here because it didn't happen to me, but this guy is an experienced shooter and I have every reason to believe him. The next time I'm over there I'll see if he will light off the rest and I'll get pictures if there's another FTF.
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 11:30:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2009 11:33:29 AM EDT by DKing]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
as fast as ammo manufacturing has been trying to crank stuff out it wouldn't surprise me to find issues like this more frequent than it occurs.

Ah, the penultimate catch-22! We are cautioned against using reloads because factory ammo is all that can be trusted, but we cannot trust factory ammo because it is massed produced and not given the care and attention of reloads!


Link Posted: 9/8/2009 11:40:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2009 11:40:23 AM EDT by Hero]
OP, did you fire your .38spl and, if so, did you have any issues with it? I've not so far but now I'm curious...
Link Posted: 9/8/2009 1:46:12 PM EDT
I did not test fire any more than the 50 9MM of the original post. i boxed it all back up (9mm and .38sp) and sent it back to hornady in accordance with thier request. I will let them sort it out and i may try this ammo again when it starts to get better reveiews. But for now, i cannot and do not trust it.

FWIW, the people at Hornady were VERY nice and polite and seemed truly concerned with the situation. I hope they get this worked out because they are a good company with a mostly great product.

Maybe i will try it when they sell the bullets as compnennts and load them myself.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 6:03:45 PM EDT
UPDATE-
I went to the range today with my PM9.

I fired the 7 rounds (speer gold dot 124gr) that i have been carrying since the day of my OP. I have carried them every day pocket carry just like i always do and just like i carried the Critical Defense.

All 7 went off perfect. I fired an additional 100 rds of speer gold dot with NO isseus. I fired 100 rds of WWB and also 100 rds of remington green box.

So today 307 rds with NO issues. Just like this gun has always been. Flawless.

Some of you guys can say what you want about the primer strikes looking off center or not deep (They are a little off center, but are plenty deep), but i am 100% confident this issue was not my gun.

Just be careful with the Critical Defense and make sure to test the batch you have before you trust your life to it.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 8:58:14 PM EDT
Meh, just buy some Gold dot, Ranger T, or HST, and be done with it. The hornady round is not up to snuff apparently.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 9:31:08 PM EDT
I had some Hornady TAP in 40 S&W I was shooting from my XD. Last one in the mag didn't go off. First time I had it happen.

Tried to shoot it again and still wouldn't.

There was a primer strike. I did not compare it to other fired rounds, however.

It changed me to Remington Golden Sabers as a result (and the other stories I've heard with CD rounds).
Link Posted: 9/21/2009 6:32:06 AM EDT
Hopefully they get their Primer problem figured out before they come out with their CD Ammo in 40 S&W and 45 ACP.
Link Posted: 9/22/2009 11:17:59 AM EDT
I had a major QC issue with some #00 Hornady TAP 12ga., the crimp was terrible.
Hornady customer service was great, they sent me out several boxes of replacement ammo... that had the exact same poor crimps.

After that experience I no longer consider Hornady to be a premium ammuntion manufacturer.
I've pretty much settled on Federal HST or Cor-Bon DPX for handgun self defense loads, Federal #00 and Brenneke slugs for shotgun loads.
Link Posted: 9/22/2009 8:05:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NMGlocker:
I had a major QC issue with some #00 Hornady TAP 12ga., the crimp was terrible.
Hornady customer service was great, they sent me out several boxes of replacement ammo... that had the exact same poor crimps.

After that experience I no longer consider Hornady to be a premium ammuntion manufacturer.
I've pretty much settled on Federal HST or Cor-Bon DPX for handgun self defense loads, Federal #00 and Brenneke slugs for shotgun loads.


Their 223 TAP (#83276) is pretty good. I went through 12 or 15 boxes of the stuff and had zero failures (240-300 rds). Accuracy was good.
Link Posted: 9/23/2009 11:19:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2009 11:23:10 AM EDT by 1911smith]
I can't tell you what happened in your case. Your weapon has only had malfunctions with Hornady. So that rules out the weapon. Being a reloader I can tell you dies need to be cleaned and ubed at certain intervals... According to the gun shop gossip Hornady was and is running 3 shifts around the clock trying to supply demand. Lube drops down inside of case and dampens primer. I've had this to happen being in too big a hurry and not giving lube time to dry.
Link Posted: 9/28/2009 11:42:07 AM EDT
Update on friends CD in .380 Auto.

The primers are gold, and he only fired 4 rounds out of the 25 round box with 2 of them FTF. Nice deep primer strikes from a Ruger LCP. I will pass on the CD for now and try to find something else for my Kel-Tec.
Link Posted: 10/5/2009 8:08:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2009 2:23:54 PM EDT by buckshot1220]
Just excellent I bought two boxes of CD for my PM9 a while back. I ran though one full box and most of the other with no problems and saved seven to carry which have been in the gun for the better part of three months. Now I am very concerned with my choice. Looks like I'll be doing some ammo shopping tomorrow while the PM9 stays at home, guess it will be an LCP day(loaded with Federal HydraShock).

Thanks to the OP and all those who commented as I would've never known this. Though I've had no problems, this amount of failures leaves a bad taste in my mouth and good reason to look at other offerings.
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 10:11:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By buckshot1220:
guess it will be an LCP day(loaded with Federal HST).


Huh? You mean Hydra-Shoks? To my knowledge there is no HST in 380.
Link Posted: 10/6/2009 2:24:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheLefty:
Originally Posted By buckshot1220:
guess it will be an LCP day(loaded with Federal HST).


Huh? You mean Hydra-Shoks? To my knowledge there is no HST in 380.


Momentary lapse of brain activity I edited post to clarify. Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/17/2009 9:37:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hero:
OP, did you fire your .38spl and, if so, did you have any issues with it? I've not so far but now I'm curious...


I've fired 20 rounds of the .38 Spec through two J Frames, no failures. Ive also fired 25 rounds of .380 through my LCP with no failures.
Link Posted: 10/26/2009 6:23:11 PM EDT
My wife had at least 5 failures yesterday with CD in Ruger LCP .380 in less than 50 rounds. This isn't the first time she's had problems with CD either, so I told her we're going with some Gold Dots for now.

Has anyone contacted Hornady about this? I know we are going to let them know.
Link Posted: 10/27/2009 9:06:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JKirk:
This is the 4th story in less than a year that I have heard about Hornady Critical Defense ammo having reliability problems (2 in 9mm and 2 in 380). but I won't carry it because of stories like this.


Same here and I've been out of the loop over summer because of school, so I'll have to do some more research. I've bought a few boxes in both those calibers. So I'll test mine out this winter when I get a break and have more time to devote.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 5:15:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2009 5:16:52 AM EDT by Papi4baby]
Just want to chime in here real quick.

I have shot about 100 to 150 rounds of CD in 9mm. Most is a Glock 19 and maybe 25 or a bit more on a Kahr P9. No issues to report. Very light recoil, very easy to follow up shots.

I have had failure to fire in the Kahr with Wolf ammo, i load it again, and it goes off.
Link Posted: 10/30/2009 10:16:30 PM EDT
Im going to stick with my Speer Gold Dot 124 gr 9mm +p in my Glock 19 and Remingtom FMJ in my Keltec P3AT. I am not one to fall for this magical ammo bs....
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 7:26:26 AM EDT
All ammo has the potential for failure. That is why any comprehensive training has a FTF component built into it. Tap and Rack and move on. There is no way to fire the ammo you are carrying to make sure it will work. A sample firing of the box might work, but you could fire the good ammo and still be stuck with the bad ammo in your pistol. Practice the FTF drills and you won't be caught flat footed.
Link Posted: 10/31/2009 7:50:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/1/2009 6:38:05 PM EDT
I'm SO glad I stumbled onto this thread... I can tell y'all for damn sure, I WON'T be buying any Hornady ammo any time soon.
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