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NY, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2009 7:34:03 PM EST
Is anyone able to share any real world shooting data, or personal experiences? In particular the type of gun and ammo used and the overal outcome? I ask this because with the endless disagreement over what is and isnt effective it would be helpful to hear fact based ideas more than opinion based ones.
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USA
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Posted: 2/24/2009 9:59:21 PM EST
I am aware of an armed civilian who shot an attacking pitbull. He was using a Sig P226 chambered in .357 Sig, loaded with Corbon 125grn Sierra JHP's. Of the seven shots fired in rapid succession, 5 hits were acheived all on or about the head/face/neck area. Because of the excessive velocity, rapid expansion characteristics and light construction of the Sierra JHP, significant core seperation was exhibited. The wounds, while lethal and catastrophic, were also quite shallow. A dog's skull was enough to literally destroy several of the bullets. From what I saw, I would guesstimate about 4+/- inches of penetration. While Corbon's Sierra JHP loads have a great reputation for velocity, accuracy and reliable expansion, from what I have seen they lack sufficient penetration for use against human opponents.
Apparently, the armed citizen specifically selected this load because of close proximity to his neighbors. He was counting on the fragmentation effects to minimize or mitigate possible over penetration and collateral damage. What I took away from this incident is that if you are using a .357 Sig as a defensive caliber you had damn well better be using a bonded JHP, otherwise you can't be assured of proper penetration and weight retention. |
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Posted: 2/28/2009 9:23:44 AM EST
Wow, only 4 inches of penetration?
 That is tiny ...
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USA
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Posted: 2/28/2009 10:49:30 PM EST
Yeah, penetration wasn't impressive. I don't know this to be certain, but I suspect Corbon loads a standard .355 125grn Sierra JHP in thier .357 Sig loads as opposed to a special .357 Sig bullet like most manufactures use. Corbon lists both thier 9x19m and .357 Sig as 125grn JHP while the "industry standard" is usually 124 for 9mm and 125 for .357 Sig, to denote the difference in projectile construction. The Sierra JHP expands like nobodies business, but it does this at its own peril. It significantly limits penetration and its terrible for core seperation issues.
And, even the biggest pitbull can't compare to a huge biker, wearing leather and carrying keys/wallet/phone/ipod. In that scenario, I don't know that 4 inches would do it for you, absent of a head shot. |
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Posted: 2/28/2009 10:54:51 PM EST
My last career was in ems. Seen people shot with everything from .22s to .45 and .308 Good and bad rounds. Modern 9mm to .45 JHPs of high quality tend to perform pretty much the same. Hit someone in the chest twice with say, a 9mm gold dot and you'll induce pretty much the same result as if you hit them with a .45 of similar quality.
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2009 2:24:51 PM EST
Dan Gray: Very interesting, have you been witness to any shooting where the projectile glanced off the persons head? Have you noticed any differences between the 9 and 45 (like penetration, expansion size)?
Have you noticed any difference between the lethality in overall numbers between small and large caliber rounds? Have you ever known anyone that examined a person shot with a 10mm? |
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Posted: 3/1/2009 8:25:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By WoodyWoodward:
Dan Gray: Very interesting, have you been witness to any shooting where the projectile glanced off the persons head? Have you noticed any differences between the 9 and 45 (like penetration, expansion size)? Have you noticed any difference between the lethality in overall numbers between small and large caliber rounds? Have you ever known anyone that examined a person shot with a 10mm? I've got a picture of man that was shot in the head with a sub sonic round fired through an MP5SD. On scene it's insanely hard to tell what caliber is used. Pretty much the only way we were going to know for sure is if the cops found brass. From the EMS side of things all you see is a hole and the condition of your patient. When exit wounds are present you can sometimes see some pretty crazy/impressive things, but oftimes an exit wound isn't much more than the entrance. As far as the 10 mm goes, no. I've seen animals shot with them and it serves as a further reminder that handguns are for getting your rifle back. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/1/2009 8:56:28 PM EST
Having rounds "glance off" the skull isn't an unheard of instance. It tends to happen with bullets which aren't high in velocity/sectional density hits the curvature of the skull. I would say one of the most prone calibers/loads to experience this phenomneon would be a 230grn .45 ACP FMJ, followed by some 180 .40 and 147grn 9mm loads. IMO, its a freak thing. Statistically, you are much more likely to have your rounds impact a persons hands/weapons...Weird shit happens sometimes when you shoot people. Teeth stop or deflect bullets. People get shot in the melon, yet are seemingly unphased. Stuff like that...No way to avoid it, other than to practice marksmanship and responsible ammo selection.
Actual shootings with the 10mm are out there, but because of the obscurity of the caliber there aren't a ton of them. The Kentucky State Police used the 10mm and it was used in a few shootings with the 175grn Silvertip loads. IIRC, the results were satisfactory. A private citizen in AZ drilled a guy with a 10mm 1911 using Federal Hydrashoks when he was acosted by the man and his dogs. Several shots were fired, striking the man about the torso. He died several minutes after the shooting and the armed citizen was convicted of manslaughter. The DA used the caliber and ammo as partial evidence against him. In any event, the 10mm was great when it first came out. Now that JHP's have become so much more effective, there is really no point in owning a 10mm anymore. Anything you can do with a 10mm, you can do with a .40 S&W or .45 ACP. Despite what some might believe, the 10mm isn't the hammer of thor. Its no better/worse than any of the other duty calibers. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/1/2009 10:13:25 PM EST
I got a Ruger Police Carbine in 9mm..real early marked gun and been using it for possum and coon trespassers with hollow points and they are deadly up to a hundred yards.Up to 50 yards a one shot stop and at the hundred mark may take two for a finish. There is an increase in velocity: maybe 1100fps out of a pistol and 1400-1500 out of the carbine.I made up some real high stepppers with AA7 and 90 grain Xtp bullets that were approaching 1800fps
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Posted: 3/2/2009 6:22:43 AM EST
WW: Be careful of single accounts of gunshots; they are anecdotal at best.
There are basically two components to a successful stop: 1) The mental state of the person being shot is such that he chooses not to continue, or 2) he is physically unable to do so. Since the mental state is out of your control, all you can do is influence #2 with proper ammo selection and good shot placement. Shot placement is training, bullet selection is choosing ammo that will reliably penetrate a minimum of 12" and expand to the largest possible diameter in the process. The latter is easily modeled in ballistic gelatin; the model data has been verified countless times, especially during the WoT when numerous gunshot wounds were analyzed using modern techniques such a X-Ray, MRI and such. Only by taking a large sample size can you obtain accurate data, and isolated reports will generally not tell you anything of value. People who have analyzed larger sample sizes have concurred with the data produced by ballistic gelatin modeling. If ballistic gelatin were inaccurate in its predictive behavior, divergences would have shown up a long time ago and it would have been discarded as an invalid simulant. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2009 2:33:56 PM EST
This is all bullshit. I always carried and shot my Glock 19 very well. I consistently won with it at IDPA and would carry it everywhere. I had an xd 45 4 compact that I traded because I though that the 10mm was a major step up. Now im pissed that im going to trade in my glock 29 to get back to where I was, with one exception. Now I have total confidence Im my 9mm doing the job and the 45 was never in doubt. I wish I joined AR15 before I traded and bought
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Posted: 3/2/2009 2:44:56 PM EST
That's too funny
 . Keep in mind two things Doctor Roberts always stresses along with his ammo recommendations: "Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios." and "The keys are: –– Cultivate a warrior mindset –– Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice –– Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system –– Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance." |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2009 4:02:29 PM EST
Zhuk: I shot 124 grain hst out of a 3.5 inch bbl M&P sub comp. into water, I also shot 147 grain into the same level of water. The 124 mushroomed beautifully while the 147 looked as though they wanted to open but were only starting to open.... both were +p and both were fired minutes apart into the same amount and temp of water and I dont believe they struck the bottom because it was a tin keg that bolts come in and the bottom was without a dent. My question is that most people on AR15 seem to push the 147 but the 147 was the reason the NY State troopers switched away from the 9 due to failure to expand and my rohrbaugh performs beautifully with 124 and 115 but mediocre with 147. I know ammo design has come a long way but do you aslo find the 124 and 115 expand more reliably while the 147 just penetrates deeper?
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2009 4:04:55 PM EST
Zhuk: Also not to ask anything you dont want to answer but what is your 9mm carry gun of choice?
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Posted: 3/2/2009 5:56:53 PM EST
You mean the 147gr HSTs failed to expand properly? That would not be good. I shot a 147 into water (only had enough milk jugs for one shot), and I didn't aim very well. It veered off sideways, but tore a big ol' chunk out of the particle board I had set up behind the jugs (it definitely looked like it expanded). Never did find the bullet.
My gun? I bought a cheap Steyr M9 from CDNN some time ago; they're not quite so cheap anymore. It's very similar to a Glock19, but sometimes I wish I had just spent the extra money on a Glock due to magazine and parts availability. Recently, I've added a Taurus PT111 subcompact into the mix - I still need to shoot it some more, but so far it hasn't jammed on anything and has been 100%. |
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Posted: 3/2/2009 6:27:38 PM EST
I've seen what 45ACP winchester ranger JHP +P do to the inside of a deer ribcage.
made a real nasty hole |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2009 6:42:02 PM EST
Gunshot stories are anecdotal at best.
A good friend's brother is Mesa PD. Responding to a domestic disturbance, both officers were charged by a fellow with a Bowie Knife. Two 230 Grain Gold Dots (Sig P220 modified to DAO) did exactly what they were supposed to,i.e. penetrate to the vitals and expanded nicely. One round west straight through the guys heart, basically tore it to pieces. The other shot missed the heart by about 2 inches. His partner also fired two rounds (Glock .40 Cal) to COM. Perp was basically dead before he hit the ground. Which basically tells you nothing, as just about anyone is going to drop like a sack of wet cement when shot through the heart with a service caliber sidearm. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2009 6:54:38 PM EST
Zhuk: The can was 23 inches tall filled with water up to 22 inches. I fired three rounds as DUGGAN can attest to. The 124 +p expanded as advertised, while the 147 +p barely expanded with two out of the three with the third expanding perfectly...not confidence inspiring. I also fired 115 grain corbon dpx ammo into the water and they were picture perfect like the 124 hst's. I'm not saying that 147 hst doesnt work, as all the testing posted on speers website by police agencies say it does. I am saying that in my limited testing it failed miserbly. In NY state they used to carry glock 17 with 147 grain ammo, cant find the brand, but they had numerous shootouts where the bullets passed through the perp like fmj and it led to high round count shootouts. The NYPD on the other hand carries 124 +p Gold Dots in Glock 19's and they have had an excellent record. Those things have personally led me to favor the 124 grain more than the 147.
I like the grip angle on the steyr, I held one at the store but I dont think I was shopping for a pistol at that point. For a "standard" pistol it has a neat futuristic look to it to. Do you think you could give me an unbiased opinion of how it shoots? |
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MEX
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Posted: 3/2/2009 8:32:30 PM EST
OK,
I shot a dead jackrabbit with a Sig P226 loaded with FC 147gr Classic JHP. The rabbit stayed put and the bullets went through and did not expand. I then shot the same jackrabbit once with a Sig P220 loaded with hardball. The bullet caused the rabbit to come up off the ground and flip over. Not lyin' |
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Posted: 3/2/2009 10:09:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By WoodyWoodward:
Zhuk: I shot 124 grain hst out of a 3.5 inch bbl M&P sub comp. into water, I also shot 147 grain into the same level of water. The 124 mushroomed beautifully while the 147 looked as though they wanted to open but were only starting to open.... both were +p and both were fired minutes apart into the same amount and temp of water and I dont believe they struck the bottom because it was a tin keg that bolts come in and the bottom was without a dent. My question is that most people on AR15 seem to push the 147 but the 147 was the reason the NY State troopers switched away from the 9 due to failure to expand and my rohrbaugh performs beautifully with 124 and 115 but mediocre with 147. I know ammo design has come a long way but do you aslo find the 124 and 115 expand more reliably while the 147 just penetrates deeper? To add some pictures to that story, this is from the test we did ... 
From our test, the 147 grain HST sucked it up big time. |
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Posted: 3/2/2009 10:42:27 PM EST
This may be ignorance talking, but I think sometimes too much is put into how the bullet expands. I know expansion is important, but in the case of say 9mm vs .45 doesnt the weight of the projectile have a part to play in how well it stops a target. What I mean is if you have a 230 grain jhp from a .45 that is moving at the same speed as a 124 grain jhp from a 9mm and they both expand well, wouldnt the extra 100 grains of weight from the .45 play a big part in how well it stopped someone.
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2009 3:55:42 AM EST
Its not about stopping its about achieving an incapacitating wound. The heavier bullet is argued to continue on a straighter path due to its weight when it hits bone or muscle or fatty tissue that may be able to send a lighter bullet off course. However if you look at a DPX in any test only weighing 115 grain of copper it expands and penetrates beautifully.... Expansion IS important, weight is also a factor but it varies based on bullet quality and materials used. DUggan and I (and it was tits of him to post those hi res photos) did the tests because why not carry a great performing bullet that can stand up to water? which is usually understood to being able to produce the max upset in a bullet
LOOK AT THAT 115 grain DPX! The pettles arent even peeled back to the base from water, I can only imagine how pristine that would look if recovered from a real target.... |
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Posted: 3/3/2009 4:03:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2009 4:05:13 AM EST by Zhukov]
You might consider contacting Federal about it. Fired into water it SHOULD expand, and what you're describing are gross failures which is unacceptable. You're probably better off sticking with the 124 +Ps for now.
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Posted: 3/3/2009 4:16:17 AM EST
It's amazingly liberating when you reach the point where you stop obsessing over this stuff and just practice shooting well under stress, especially when someone else picks your ammo for you.
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Posted: 3/3/2009 5:58:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: It's amazingly liberating when you reach the point where you stop obsessing over this stuff and just practice shooting well under stress, especially when someone else picks your ammo for you. GTFO my forum. Obsessing about ammo is my job. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2009 6:48:50 AM EST
Perhaps you are comfortable using ammo that you haven't personally tested, it must be nice to carry a lethal weapon and practice shooting under "stress" (whatever that means, I shoot ipsic and IDPA and dont consider it anywhere near as stressful as hunting) but some of us enjoy shooting and testing what we carry. For example the 147 grain hst that was supposed to be the 9mm bullet to beat, turned out to be a failure for whatever reason. The point is now I will exclusively use 124 for standard jhp and 115 dpx clearly works well. The test took all of 30 minutes and look what we learned.....Its too bad I never shoot, the good thing is I carry magic bullets though. I just hate obsessing........
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Posted: 3/3/2009 8:46:52 AM EST
I pinged DocGKR about your results. Hopefully he has time to respond.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2009 9:43:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
You might consider contacting Federal about it. Fired into water it SHOULD expand, and what you're describing are gross failures which is unacceptable. You're probably better off sticking with the 124 +Ps for now. Ha, So I am better off with the 124 +p HSTs vs the 147s? |
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Posted: 3/3/2009 9:53:58 AM EST
The 147gr is recommended by DocGKR. The question is: Why did THIS 147gr not expand? Nothing I'd seen previously points to any failures of the 147gr HST.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2009 9:58:38 AM EST
But isn't water less dense than flesh of ballistics gel? So the hollow points should have more of a problem opening up in water or something light like whipped cream.
Maybe his 3.5" barrel doesn't provide the velocity for the 147s to open up in water, while they would still open up in ballistics gel/flesh? |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2009 10:08:10 AM EST
Water provides a cheap medium to cheap projectiles into because it generally creates the maximum upset that could possibly be experienced from a human being struck by a projectile. Simply put, if a bullet has any chance of expanding in a real situation, it should expand to its absolute maximum. Shooting into water is hardly scientific but it is a general yard stick, and for some reason the 147 hst failed while the 124 hst and gold dot are picture perfect. The corbon dpx didnt do so bad either, in fact pretty damn close to perfect......
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Posted: 3/3/2009 10:52:35 AM EST
I see a lot of interest in hollow point bullets but little mention of solids. I don't have to defend how destructive the semi wadcutter or Kieth style design is the .44 mag. but I would like to mention my particular favorite bullet in my 6" Ruger is the 125 JSP "its a flat point bullet" with 10gr of Unique exits my barrel at 1630fps, its extremely accurate and I've killed 4 deer with it, 2 does and 2 bucks. I wish I had a bullet to show what kind of damage they did at ranges from 25 to 60 yards, but I've yet to have one not exit. I've hit ribs in a frontal shot and had the bullet exit midway on top of the back, broadside shots that took out a rib going in and exiting the other side, a neck shot that was the only one that required a follow up shot but would have died anyways. I just didn't want to drag it any farther that necessary. One in the bleeper that blew out the back of its skull. I can't prove they all expanded well but they all left large exit wounds, and I would carry this load with complete confidence for anything smaller than bear! Give me a big fat flat nosed bullet anyday for anything but ultra long range shooting!
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MEX
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Posted: 3/3/2009 8:05:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
The question is: Why did THIS 147gr not expand? Nothing I'd seen previously points to any failures of the 147gr HST. Because not every bullet is perfect. That's the trouble with bullet jackets formed by folding copper. They rely on tearing in the area of the fold. Sometimes the jacket does not tear because the fold does not weaken the copper enough. Bullet jackets that are pre-cut, such as SXT or Gold Dot, have an easier time tearing. They are more reliable. Think of it as a pre-cut piece of paper versus a folded piece of paper. Which is going to tear easier? |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 6:35:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By 918v: Originally Posted By Zhukov: The question is: Why did THIS 147gr not expand? Nothing I'd seen previously points to any failures of the 147gr HST. Because not every bullet is perfect. That's the trouble with bullet jackets formed by folding copper. They rely on tearing in the area of the fold. Sometimes the jacket does not tear because the fold does not weaken the copper enough. Bullet jackets that are pre-cut, such as SXT or Gold Dot, have an easier time tearing. They are more reliable. Think of it as a pre-cut piece of paper versus a folded piece of paper. Which is going to tear easier? Are you implying that the HST is not pre-cut?  |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2009 8:10:38 AM EST
I like the 147 HSTs, +p and standard. I shoot them(or did) out of an XD-9 Tactical 5in Bbl. Great accuracy and reliability (#1 consideration) and grood expansion and penetration on top. I Like those rounds.
Zhuk, I know we may disagree on bullets and velocities, but do know I value your ammo knowledge and enjoy reading your posts! Very knowledgeable!! |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 9:09:02 AM EST
DocGKRs take on it:
"Bullets do weird things. A few years ago, an agency here had a couple of lots of RA45T that would not expand in the 4 layer denim testing––it turned out that the die used to stamp the jacket notches was dull, so the notches were not properly cut. Increasing the velocity solved the problem, whether the notches were dull or sharp, so the agency adopted RA45TP and had no more problems... There have been several OIS incidents in this area recently where 147 gr HST fired from 4" barrels worked flawlessly––the recovered projectiles looked exactly like those in 4 layer denim testing. TPD223 also referenced some information earlier in the thread where 9 mm 147 gr HST recently worked perfectly on bad guys in another part of the country..." |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2009 9:57:01 AM EST
Good to know zhuk, cheers
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Posted: 3/4/2009 10:07:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By WoodyWoodward: Good to know zhuk, cheers I would try a few more. If they also fail to expand, I'd give Federal a call. It might be something they'd want to know about. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable with them either out of your gun right now. |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 10:29:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
It's amazingly liberating when you reach the point where you stop obsessing over this stuff and just practice shooting well under stress, especially when someone else picks your ammo for you. GTFO my forum. Obsessing about ammo is my job.
Somebody has to do it... |
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MEX
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Posted: 3/4/2009 6:50:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By 918v:
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
The question is: Why did THIS 147gr not expand? Nothing I'd seen previously points to any failures of the 147gr HST. Because not every bullet is perfect. That's the trouble with bullet jackets formed by folding copper. They rely on tearing in the area of the fold. Sometimes the jacket does not tear because the fold does not weaken the copper enough. Bullet jackets that are pre-cut, such as SXT or Gold Dot, have an easier time tearing. They are more reliable. Think of it as a pre-cut piece of paper versus a folded piece of paper. Which is going to tear easier? Are you implying that the HST is not pre-cut? http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/MiscDocuments/147%20comparison%2001.jpg Yes. HST jackets are folded at the mouth of the hollow point. They are perforated along the ogjive, but that cut stops short of the bullet tip. |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 6:53:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By 918v: Yes. HST jackets are folded at the mouth of the hollow point. They are perforated along the ogjive, but that cut stops short of the bullet tip.  |
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MEX
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Posted: 3/4/2009 7:15:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Originally Posted By 918v:
Yes. HST jackets are folded at the mouth of the hollow point. They are perforated along the ogjive, but that cut stops short of the bullet tip. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/MiscDocuments/OverheadHPComparison.jpg OK? You cannot see that the HST jacket is folded??? |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 7:18:12 PM EST
What do you define as the "bullet tip"? I guess that's what I'm confused about.
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MEX
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Posted: 3/4/2009 7:22:34 PM EST
The very top of the bullet.
The sharp edge/circumfrence of the hollow point. HST jackets are folded vertically to form their tangent ogjive. |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 7:32:57 PM EST
I just looked at my .45 230gr HSTs, and on those it looks like you're right - the perforations stop just short of the tip. On my 147gr 9mm HSTs, the perforations appear to extend into the tip.
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Posted: 3/4/2009 7:34:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/4/2009 7:35:12 PM EST by MudBug]
Originally Posted By WoodyWoodward:
Dan Gray: Very interesting, have you been witness to any shooting where the projectile glanced off the persons head? Have you noticed any differences between the 9 and 45 (like penetration, expansion size)? Have you noticed any difference between the lethality in overall numbers between small and large caliber rounds? Have you ever known anyone that examined a person shot with a 10mm? I remember reading in one of the gun mags about 12 years ago about a bullet glancing off a guys head. Two cops showed up to a call where a lady had come home to find her house broken into. The cops did a walkthough and found a door that wouldn't open, but gave soft resitance, like a person was holding it. They pushed into the room and the female cop was shot immediatly. Now I don't recall the order of everything else that happened, but a lot of bullets went off in that room, and at one point the officer actually opened his revolver and dumped the rounds cuz it was the only working gun left in the room, and he thought that no gun was a better idea. After more fighting the cop stuck himself in a corner to reload his revolver while the bad guy beat on his back with some kind of club or something. He then pointed the gun behind him and shot the guy in the mid section, turned around and grabbed him by the hair, put the muzzle up against his forehead and pulled the trigger. The guy collapsed and the cop thought he was dead. As he walked to the door he suddenly heard the guy moaning and turned to find him standing and ready for more fight. The cop fired 2 more times and one round hit the guy in the hip, shattering bone, and the guy fell to the ground where he continued to breathe for another few minutes before dying. The bad guy had been shot 10 times with the officers 38 spl. The round that hit him in the forehead had just traveled across the top of his skull, never getting past the bone, but it did knock him out for a short time. The cop said that as he walked though the room, blood squished up around his shoes from the soaked carpet. I would love to find another recounting of this story if anyone here knows the case. |
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MEX
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Posted: 3/4/2009 7:37:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zhukov:
I just looked at my .45 230gr HSTs, and on those it looks like you're right - the perforations stop just short of the tip. On my 147gr 9mm HSTs, the perforations appear to extend into the tip. Get two pairs of needle nose pliers and pull that hollow point apart. You'll see. |
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Posted: 3/4/2009 7:52:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By 918v: Originally Posted By Zhukov: I just looked at my .45 230gr HSTs, and on those it looks like you're right - the perforations stop just short of the tip. On my 147gr 9mm HSTs, the perforations appear to extend into the tip. Get two pairs of needle nose pliers and pull that hollow point apart. You'll see. Interesting. I assume there must be a reason for that. |
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Posted: 3/5/2009 4:35:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2009 4:37:39 PM EST by 3rdpig]
Nevermind!
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Posted: 3/6/2009 5:29:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2009 5:35:24 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Originally Posted By MudBug:
I would love to find another recounting of this story if anyone here knows the case. Contact American Handgunner magazine and ask for a copy of The Ayoob Files - Day of the Terminator: The Chaney/Lawrence Incident from the Sept/Oct 1991 issue. Here's an account of the events that borrows heavily from the Ayoob article. It's the section on Linda Lawrence: Link |
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Posted: 3/6/2009 9:17:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By MudBug:
I would love to find another recounting of this story if anyone here knows the case. Contact American Handgunner magazine and ask for a copy of The Ayoob Files - Day of the Terminator: The Chaney/Lawrence Incident from the Sept/Oct 1991 issue. Here's an account of the events that borrows heavily from the Ayoob article. It's the section on Linda Lawrence: Link That's it, that was the story, I remember the title now... Thanks |
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