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Posted: 1/10/2005 8:02:13 PM EDT

just a blip from todays boston herald. i'm long familiar with the comments from both sides here, but comment if you want.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whitman woman says cop wrong in barging in
By Tom Farmer
Monday, January 10, 2005

A Whitman woman has filed a civil rights complaint against a town police officer who she claims forced his way into her house to arrest her daughter and then intimidated other relatives in an effort to locate the daughter.

    ``He barged in my house unannounced and opened my door without permission,'' Theresa A. Pagnini wrote in a complaint against officer Sean Reynolds that was sent last month to Attorney General Tom Reilly.

     ``When I asked him for an explanation he told me he had a warrant for my daughter and he had the right to be in my home. I advised Officer Reynolds that my daughter did not live at home and asked him to leave. He refused and continued to invade the privacy of my home. Never once did Officer Reynolds produce any documentation as to why he was there.''



    Pagnini said she later learned that her 20-year-old daughter was wanted for violating probation and was further incensed when Reynolds reportedly contacted other relatives and told them they ``could be arrested and or charged with harboring a fugitive.''

    Beth Stone, a spokeswoman for Reilly, confirmed state police investigators assigned to his office are looking into the matter. Whitman police Chief John R. Schnyer and Deputy Chief Raymond Nelson did not respond to a request for comment.

    The investigation is the latest in a series of negative incidents involving Schnyer and his department.

    While Pagnini declined comment on her complaint pending the outcome of the AG's investigation, she said her situation has left her with no confidence in the Whitman Police Department.

    ``If this is the way the police treat the law-abiding citizens in this town I feel that if we have an 911 emergency we should call the fire department,'' she said yesterday.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:04:51 PM EDT
Officer Reynolds should have just tasered those non-compliant jerks.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:07:20 PM EDT
I heard that as long as the warrant has been called in and judge gives the OK over the phone, in an emergency type situation, no warrant documentation has to be given.

I thought it was BS the moment i heard it.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:12:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 20iner:
I heard that as long as the warrant has been called in and judge gives the OK over the phone, in an emergency type situation, no warrant documentation has to be given.

I thought it was BS the moment i heard it.



Why bother with the paper?  You can only stand up for your rights after you have been charged with a crime to the tune of $400 per hour.  Once you know it's the police you have no right to resist thier entry warrant or not while they are tear assing into your home.  They have one.... they said so, now sit down and STFU.  
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:19:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 8:21:12 PM EDT by Rand]
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



But we also dont know if he showed a warrant cause we are only hearing one side of the story.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:21:22 PM EDT
No mention of the dog........



Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:35:46 PM EDT
I don't think current police procedures are what the founding fathers had in mind. Then again, I doubt the founding fathers would have ever tied the police's hands behind their backs with those procedures to begin with. I don't think progressing beyond common sense was such a great idea.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:37:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:39:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?



+1

People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:41:44 PM EDT
Dammit Farva
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:45:54 PM EDT
thats what happens when they take your guns first....I lived in Whitman.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 8:53:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?



+1

People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Then I guess anyone trying to arrest me at my house without showing cause, is gonna have themselves a standoff.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:03:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?



+1

People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Then I guess anyone trying to arrest me at my house without showing cause, is gonna have themselves a standoff.



Commendable... Wanna know who is gonna win?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:11:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:


People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Maybe it's because it's a secret. Maybe we would be calling BS on rights that get trampled. Wouldn't want the people to know the rules of the game.

I sure know I've had my rights trampled on before. Considering that the dept in question has killed people several times for "the protection of their officers" by either sniper or suppressed SMG, I was lucky. It's a good thing that local AZ cops don't need to be bothered with "federal miranda laws" when they charge you on a local or state law. I wasn't "covered" by Miranda because they weren't charging me with a Federal crime, so they told me.

So, I'm sure that people don't know what is allowed.  That would be unfair to you as a cop. Secrecy and intimidation are effective tools of the trade. Why give that up?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:13:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 9:18:11 PM EDT by FanoftheBlackRifle]

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?



+1

People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Then I guess anyone trying to arrest me at my house without showing cause, is gonna have themselves a standoff.



Commendable... Wanna know who is gonna win?




Hey, you show me a valid warrant for my arrest, and I'll come out and surrender, no problem.





IF it goes the other way, at least I'll have the satisfaction of taking at least one JBT out with me.  

(and yes, I'm thinking of one specific department, and it sure as shit ain't yours....so don't get your panties in a bunch)

ETA:  Of course, if its the department I'm thinking of, I actually have a pretty good chance of coming out on top until they call in backup.  THEN I'll be in a world of hurt.....but until then....
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:14:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:
People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.


Well? What are you waiting for? Hmmmm? Spill the beans with us unenlightened, unwashed peasants!
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:14:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?



+1

People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Then I guess anyone trying to arrest me at my house without showing cause, is gonna have themselves a standoff.



Commendable... Wanna know who is gonna win?



The ones that live. He may not be the only loser at the end of the day.  On a side note to LEO. Denver just had an allrgrd  suiside by cop, older lady, very depressed. Tough job you guys have sometimes. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:17:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:

Originally Posted By FiveO:


People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Maybe it's because it's a secret. Maybe we would be calling BS on rights that get trampled. Wouldn't want the people to know the rules of the game.

I sure know I've had my rights trampled on before. Considering that the dept in question has killed people several times for "the protection of their officers" by either sniper or suppressed SMG, I was lucky. It's a good thing that local AZ cops don't need to be bothered with "federal miranda laws" when they charge you on a local or state law. I wasn't "covered" by Miranda because they weren't charging me with a Federal crime, so they told me.

So, I'm sure that people don't know what is allowed.  That would be unfair to you as a cop. Secrecy and intimidation are effective tools of the trade. Why give that up?



Or one could educate themselves as opposed to blathering on the internet... Then that person would know that 1. Miranda is required BEFORE IN CUSTODY QUESTIONING and NOT AT ALL during or after an arrest if there is not going to be an interview/interrogation and also know that 2. all Americans are protected by Miranda regarding questioning PERIOD.

Just a thought.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:21:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By FiveO:
People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.


Well? What are you waiting for? Hmmmm? Spill the beans with us unenlightened, unwashed peasants!



Dude, ask a specific question and I will answer it. I ain't gonna type 100 pages for ya. The info is out there and it is easy to get.

The problem is that MOST people get it from watching Law and Order and NYPD Blue or some such... And BELIEVE IT!

Sorry.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:23:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Neolock:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?



+1

People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Then I guess anyone trying to arrest me at my house without showing cause, is gonna have themselves a standoff.



Commendable... Wanna know who is gonna win?



The ones that live. He may not be the only loser at the end of the day.  On a side note to LEO. Denver just had an allrgrd  suiside by cop, older lady, very depressed. Tough job you guys have sometimes. Thanks.



True. True. BUT he WILL be the only SURE loser.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:24:55 PM EDT
so, i'm not in the know on this......if the warrant is for a person, and not the premesis, and they don't know for a fact that the person is in there, can they just barge in?  
does a warrant have to specifically indicate permission of being no-knock for that to happen?
would they issue a general warrant to search a whole residence for a person that violated probation?
in my mind, probation violation seems to be small beans compared to parole violation.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:25:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:
Dude, ask a specific question and I will answer it. I ain't gonna type 100 pages for ya. The info is out there and it is easy to get.

The problem is that MOST people get it from watching Law and Order and NYPD Blue or some such... And BELIEVE IT!

Sorry.


OK: Do officers have to have a warrant WITH THEM as they seek to enter a dwelling?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:34:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By FiveO:
Dude, ask a specific question and I will answer it. I ain't gonna type 100 pages for ya. The info is out there and it is easy to get.

The problem is that MOST people get it from watching Law and Order and NYPD Blue or some such... And BELIEVE IT!

Sorry.


OK: Do officers have to have a warrant WITH THEM as they seek to enter a dwelling?



In AL and based on our SOP, the DA and AL SC rulings at least;

Search Warrant, yes.

Arrest warrant, no but preferable, of course. The address you search for a subject of the warrant must be on the warrant when sworn to OR the officer must have probable cause to believe the subject is in an area that is not specifically listed.

Often times warrants are executed by a patrol officer who gets a call that Joe Dumbfuck is at Betty Sue Rottencrotch's house "right now." The officer, armed with being advised that another LEO (in reality a warrant clerk, dispatcher, corrections officer or LEO) has said warrant "in hand" can then execute that warrant in good faith that it exists and is valid. the address issue is to be determined by the officer generally.

Frankly I would prefer it to be in my hot little hands but there is nothing requiring it.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:37:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By Neolock:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:

Originally Posted By Rand:
police wont come into my house until i see a warrant first if not they can spend all day with their thumbs up their ass outside.



Police do not have to "show" an arrest warrant.  

And how do you plan to accomplish your little statement of bravado?



+1

People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Then I guess anyone trying to arrest me at my house without showing cause, is gonna have themselves a standoff.



Commendable... Wanna know who is gonna win?



The ones that live. He may not be the only loser at the end of the day.  On a side note to LEO. Denver just had an allrgrd  suiside by cop, older lady, very depressed. Tough job you guys have sometimes. Thanks.



True. True. BUT he WILL be the only SURE loser.



So tell me this..


WHY WOULD THE FUCKING COPS NOT HAVE SOMEONE BRING A WARRANT IF ASKED?

As in, they know where I'm at.  They can't get to me and they know I'm not going anywhere.  I tell them I'll surrender if they provide a written warrant.   Why would they not do so, as a means to avoid a bigger confrontation?

OH, thats right....

BECAUSE SOME OF YOU COPS THINK YOUR JOB IS ALL ABOUT FUCKING PEOPLE OVER, CRACKING HEADS, SHOOTING DOGS, TAZERING GRANNIES AND SMALL CHILDREN, AND GENERALLY RUNNING ROUGHSHOD OVER THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE.

As you can tell....I'm not particularly happy with law "enforcement" in general right now.

So consider this a big FU to all the bad cops out there, and my apologies to the rest, but until you prove to me you're not a bad cop, I'll assume you're one of the corrupt ones and it WILL be up to YOU to prove you're not.   Wasn't always this way, but after being the victim of an entirely corrupt department....well....you can thank them for my shitty attitude towards ya.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:39:26 PM EDT
Thanks for the reply.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:40:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunsanplanes:
so, i'm not in the know on this......if the warrant is for a person, and not the premesis, and they don't know for a fact that the person is in there, can they just barge in?  
does a warrant have to specifically indicate permission of being no-knock for that to happen?
would they issue a general warrant to search a whole residence for a person that violated probation?
in my mind, probation violation seems to be small beans compared to parole violation.



Address issues discussed above.

A search warrant is generally a "knock and announce", daytime warrant. Anything else is an exception and must be specifically allowed in the warrant. An arrest warrant can be "no knock" without special authorization and should be based on the dangerousness of the offender and severity of the crime.

When executing an arrest warrant, you can search any where inside a residence where a man could hide.

Beans are in the eye of the beholder. A felony warrant is a felony warrant. Aggrivators just escalate the way it is executed.

Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:46:46 PM EDT
ok, got ya.
thanks for the reply.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:47:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 9:48:33 PM EDT by FiveO]

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
WHY WOULD THE FUCKING COPS NOT HAVE SOMEONE BRING A WARRANT IF ASKED?

As in, they know where I'm at.  They can't get to me and they know I'm not going anywhere.  I tell them I'll surrender if they provide a written warrant.   Why would they not do so, as a means to avoid a bigger confrontation?



OK, Mr Bankrobber. Sorry the warrant is still in the town you just fled. Let me wait here at your door and see if Barney can run over there and get it. Please do not "bunker up" on me now, OK? It'll just be an hour or two.

Tell ya what, you just come on down and turn yourself in when it is fucking convenient for you, OK?

Awww Hell. Never mind.

Go! Go! Go!



Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:52:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By rtech:

Originally Posted By FiveO:


People have no clue what is allowed/required regarding warrant execution.



Maybe it's because it's a secret. Maybe we would be calling BS on rights that get trampled. Wouldn't want the people to know the rules of the game.

I sure know I've had my rights trampled on before. Considering that the dept in question has killed people several times for "the protection of their officers" by either sniper or suppressed SMG, I was lucky. It's a good thing that local AZ cops don't need to be bothered with "federal miranda laws" when they charge you on a local or state law. I wasn't "covered" by Miranda because they weren't charging me with a Federal crime, so they told me.

So, I'm sure that people don't know what is allowed.  That would be unfair to you as a cop. Secrecy and intimidation are effective tools of the trade. Why give that up?



Or one could educate themselves as opposed to blathering on the internet... Then that person would know that 1. Miranda is required BEFORE IN CUSTODY QUESTIONING and NOT AT ALL during or after an arrest if there is not going to be an interview/interrogation and also know that 2. all Americans are protected by Miranda regarding questioning PERIOD.

Just a thought.




I certainly understand it. And I did educate myself and was educated BEFOREHAND. HOWEVER, try telling that to a monkey-brained imbecile who is packing the gun and badge who slept through legal at the academy, while in a pair of matching bracelets. Sure. He really wasn't interested in anything I had to say other than "I did it" whether I did or not (I didn't). Oh, and they did read them to me, they just didn't understand the context. I really wished they would mandate an IQ test and minimum IQ standards to be a cop. I also wish that stupidity hurt. Sometimes it does, but not often enough.

As I stated, Peoria, AZ PD all need to retake civics and legal. ACLU wasn't interested because I wasn't the right color of skin or gender. But that's another story. Miranda is a wasted effort in AZ. In my case anyway.

Secrecy and intimidation are a big part of your toolbox. We all know that. So don't blather to me about it. I know. See threads about LEO searching your vehicles.... Oh, yeah. PERIOD!
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 9:57:49 PM EDT
I see that while certain words are not allowed around here, stupidity still flourishes.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:01:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:
I certainly understand it. And I did educate myself and was educated BEFOREHAND. HOWEVER, try telling that to a monkey-brained imbecile who is packing the gun and badge who slept through legal at the academy, while in a pair of matching bracelets. Sure. He really wasn't interested in anything I had to say other than "I did it" whether I did or not (I didn't). Oh, and they did read them to me, they just didn't understand the context. I really wished they would mandate an IQ test and minimum IQ standards to be a cop. I also wish that stupidity hurt. Sometimes it does, but not often enough.

As I stated, Peoria, AZ PD all need to retake civics and legal. ACLU wasn't interested because I wasn't the right color of skin or gender. But that's another story. Miranda is a wasted effort in AZ. In my case anyway.

Secrecy and intimidation are a big part of your toolbox. We all know that. So don't blather to me about it. I know. See threads about LEO searching your vehicles.... Oh, yeah. PERIOD!



I have no need for either and I am quite sucessful, thanks!

Furthermore, it is not my job to give anyone a civics lesson during my investigation into their crimes or during or after an arrest.

Sorry for your bad experience... Really. I got a ticket once and the Trooper was an ignorant, arrogant, racist asshole. Big whoopie shit. I paid it, bitched to my friends and got the fuck over it.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:03:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
WHY WOULD THE FUCKING COPS NOT HAVE SOMEONE BRING A WARRANT IF ASKED?

As in, they know where I'm at.  They can't get to me and they know I'm not going anywhere.  I tell them I'll surrender if they provide a written warrant.   Why would they not do so, as a means to avoid a bigger confrontation?



OK, Mr Bankrobber. Sorry the warrant is still in the town you just fled. Let me wait here at your door and see if Barney can run over there and get it. Please do not "bunker up" on me now, OK? It'll just be an hour or two.

Tell ya what, you just come on down and turn yourself in when it is fucking convenient for you, OK?

Awww Hell. Never mind.

Go! Go! Go!






Fair enough....I'm just thinking more local...as in, you live in the same town that the the warrent is from.   I can see how that wouldn't work real well if that isn't the case.

However....for local stuff, (and I mean smallish-town type local, not big-city "local") I don't see why they can't wait 10 minutes while joe copper grabs a copy of the warrant from the station and brings it over.  Hell, for that matter, have the SWAT guys bring it to the scene with them, and have a non-swat member deliver it.  Its not like it'd take that much time for one of the people at the station to say "oh here take this with you" while the guys are gearing up.

And yes, I'm in a smallish city that still thinks it needs a full-blown SWAT team.  Which is funny, because they never do anything inside the city limits, but instead are "loaned out" after a shitton of paperwork to the county sherrif and surrounding towns, entirely to deal with meth labs and various other drug busts.  
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:05:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 10:07:34 PM EDT by natez]
Actually, in about 99% of the arrest warrants served, the officer and the person arrested never see the warrant.

The warrant exists in a file cabinet somewhere, at the issuing agency. The officer does not have to have the warrant, he just has to know that it exists, and have confirmation that it is active.

On a traffic stop, at a disturbance, or even when dispatched to a warrant service, the officer will see the charge and issuing agency on a screen (or get it over the radio or a cell phone if they don't have mobile computers). The receiving jail will get a teletype from the either the agency holding the warrant, or a teletype from the arresting agency that confirms (in fact, it says "Hit Confirmation" at the top) that the warrant exists. The judge who first sees the arrested person often never sees the warrant either.

The only warrants I actually lay eyes on are ones I write, and sometimes local traffic warrants that I have to personally sign off on once they have been served, and even then, someone else usually does that.

Search Warrants are different, and officers will leave a copy of that, but that is a 1 page document that only says that a judge found that probable cause exists to search your house (in legalese, which takes about five times as many words). The PC affidvit for the Search Warrant is usually 8-14 pages, and your lawyer can get a copy for you after indictment; you won't see that during the warrant service.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:06:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By FiveO:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
WHY WOULD THE FUCKING COPS NOT HAVE SOMEONE BRING A WARRANT IF ASKED?

As in, they know where I'm at.  They can't get to me and they know I'm not going anywhere.  I tell them I'll surrender if they provide a written warrant.   Why would they not do so, as a means to avoid a bigger confrontation?



OK, Mr Bankrobber. Sorry the warrant is still in the town you just fled. Let me wait here at your door and see if Barney can run over there and get it. Please do not "bunker up" on me now, OK? It'll just be an hour or two.

Tell ya what, you just come on down and turn yourself in when it is fucking convenient for you, OK?

Awww Hell. Never mind.

Go! Go! Go!






Fair enough....I'm just thinking more local...as in, you live in the same town that the the warrent is from.   I can see how that wouldn't work real well if that isn't the case.

However....for local stuff, (and I mean smallish-town type local, not big-city "local") I don't see why they can't wait 10 minutes while joe copper grabs a copy of the warrant from the station and brings it over.  Hell, for that matter, have the SWAT guys bring it to the scene with them, and have a non-swat member deliver it.  Its not like it'd take that much time for one of the people at the station to say "oh here take this with you" while the guys are gearing up.

And yes, I'm in a smallish city that still thinks it needs a full-blown SWAT team.  Which is funny, because they never do anything inside the city limits, but instead are "loaned out" after a shitton of paperwork to the county sherrif and surrounding towns, entirely to deal with meth labs and various other drug busts.  



No question it is better to have the paper in hand. It just is not always feasable or even possible so thankfully the Judges on High have not hobbled us with that particular requirement... yet.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:10:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 10:11:25 PM EDT by natez]
I'll add that there is NO legal requirement that you "see" a warrant before the officers make an arrest or start their search. In fact, the courts have found exactly the opposite, as a reasonable person would believe an officer has a warrant if he says he does, and the courts have also recognized that we don't have time to be juggling papers during an arrest or a search.

That being said, I will show any person I have arrested whatever paperwork I have about the warrant, whether that be a copy of the warrant, a copy of the NCIC hit or a teletype from another agency. But not until the handcuffs are on and things are copacetic.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:10:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FiveO:
It just is not always feasable or even possible so thankfully the Judges on High have not hobbled us with that particular requirement... yet.




SHHHH.....we'll give them ideas.  Then they can do more legislating from the bench
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:11:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 10:12:28 PM EDT by FiveO]

Originally Posted By natez:
Actually, in about 99% of the arrest warrants served, the officer and the person arrested never see the warrant.

The warrant exists in a file cabinet somewhere, at the issuing agency. The officer does not have to have the warrant, he just has to know that it exists, and have confirmation that it is active.

On a traffic stop, at a disturbance, or even when dispatched to a warrant service, the officer will see the charge and issuing agency on a screen (or get it over the radio or a cell phone if they don't have mobile computers). The receiving jail will get a teletype from the either the agency holding the warrant, or a teletype from the arresting agency that confirms (in fact, it says "Hit Confirmation" at the top) that the warrant exists. The judge who first sees the arrested person often never sees the warrant either.

The only warrants I actually lay eyes on are ones I write, and sometimes local traffic warrants that I have to personally sign off on once they have been served, and even then, someone else usually does that.

Search Warrants are different, and officers will leave a copy of that, but that is a 1 page document that only says that a judge found that probable cause exists to search your house (in legalese, which takes about five times as many words). The PC affidvit for the Search Warrant is usually 8-14 pages, and your lawyer can get a copy for you after indictment; you won't see that during the warrant service.




Originally Posted By natez:
I'll add that there is NO legal requirement that you "see" a warrant before the officers make an arrest or start their search. In fact, the courts have found exactly the opposite, as a reasonable person would believe an officer has a warrant if he says he does, and the courts have also recognized that we don't have time to be juggling papers during an arrest or a search.

That being said, I will show any person I have arrested whatever paperwork I have about the warrant, whether that be a copy of the warrant, a copy of the NCIC hit or a teletype from another agency. But not until the handcuffs are on and things are copacetic.



Yep.

See, we are teaching and building bridges! Fostering the growth of love and compassionate understanding and tolerance between LEOs and ARF'ers everwhere! I'm tearing up...
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:14:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:
I'll add that there is NO legal requirement that you "see" a warrant before the officers make an arrest or start their search. In fact, the courts have found exactly the opposite, as a reasonable person would believe an officer has a warrant if he says he does, and the courts have also recognized that we don't have time to be juggling papers during an arrest or a search.

That being said, I will show any person I have arrested whatever paperwork I have about the warrant, wether that be a copy of the warrant, a copy of the NCIC hit or a teletype from another agency. But not until the handcuffs are on and things are copacetic.




Unfortunetly, that isn't necessarily the case these days, and that comes from a few bad cops, a few others willing to protect the blue line at all costs, and an US vs THEM / LEO vs "civillian" attitude displayed by many LEO and NON-LEO alike.

Due to recent events....I no longer trust ANYTHING a LEO says, unless they have proof.  You can thank a certain corrupt mid-MO police department for my change in attitude.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:37:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By natez:
I'll add that there is NO legal requirement that you "see" a warrant before the officers make an arrest or start their search. In fact, the courts have found exactly the opposite, as a reasonable person would believe an officer has a warrant if he says he does, and the courts have also recognized that we don't have time to be juggling papers during an arrest or a search.

That being said, I will show any person I have arrested whatever paperwork I have about the warrant, wether that be a copy of the warrant, a copy of the NCIC hit or a teletype from another agency. But not until the handcuffs are on and things are copacetic.




Unfortunetly, that isn't necessarily the case these days, and that comes from a few bad cops, a few others willing to protect the blue line at all costs, and an US vs THEM / LEO vs "civillian" attitude displayed by many LEO and NON-LEO alike.

Due to recent events....I no longer trust ANYTHING a LEO says, unless they have proof.  You can thank a certain corrupt mid-MO police department for my change in attitude.



You certainly have the right to have that opinion, but the legal standard and the measures officers are permitted to take when serving warrants are pretty plainly spelled out, and resisting an arrest or search pursuant to a warrant just because you haven't seen an actual copy of the warrant (more on that later) is just going to get you in more trouble. lots of it.

As to the "original" warrant, I just recalled that the original warrant leaves the officer's hands the moment he hands a warrant application in to the judge; the officer, and persons arrested, will NEVER see the actual original warrant. The judge will take that to the warrant cleark, who files it in communications. It will remain there, on file, until served. The officer will never lay eyes or hands on the warrant again. In some cases, the officer may get a photocopy of the warrant, but not often.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 10:48:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 11:01:49 PM EDT by Rand]
So the officer needs a warrant in hand for searching a house?

But he doesnt need one in hand for an arrest  i understand that part.

Shouldnt they have the warrant in hand when gioing into a home to arrest though.
how long would it take to get a copy of a warrant in hand before going to a house?
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 11:16:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 11:17:54 PM EDT by sum-rifle]
I am not going to judge whether this was right or wrong, as I was not there.  I will say that an officer in California can not go into a house with an arrest warrant unless he has permission or reasonable cause to believe the person is inside.

I have knocked on doors with arrest warrants and had Moms, sisters, even the bad guys children say something like "yeah, I'll get him for you" or "He's asleep right now" As soon as they tell me the person is inside, I don't need a search warrant and I am going in.  Sometimes the mom or wife or whoever, wants you to wait while they "get them" That is not going to happen.  I am going in to arrest the person.  I don't want them to have time to arm themselves or go out the back and escape.

If I see a person I know to have a warrant and they run into a house I am going in. (hot pursuit) No warrant is necessary in that case either.

But back to the case at hand, if the mom/wife/whoever says "they are not here" it may be just a tactic to give him time to go out the door or hide better in the house.  

If the person is on probation as this one is because the warrant is for "violation of probation" the cop may be able to go in without a warrant if this is the "address of record"  If the probationer moved and did not inform the probation department that is a violation in and of itself.  Depending on why the person is on probation the officer can go in to do a probation search even if the probationer is not home, even if the person opening the door says "he moved" that is the address of record.
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 11:16:58 PM EDT
It was a probation search...the 20 year old probationer's residence is searchable without notice day or night. Any addresses she has used are good to go when searching for her. SHE gave up the right to be secure in her home when she took probation instead of jail. If she changed address without informing her PO, that alone is enough for the warrant on a violation of probation. l-r
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 11:22:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 11:26:12 PM EDT by natez]

Originally Posted By Rand:
So the officer needs a warrant in hand for searching a house?

But he doesnt need one in hand for an arrest  i understand that part.

Shouldnt they have the warrant in hand when gioing into a home to arrest though.
how long would it take to get a copy of a warrant in hand before going to a house?



That isn't how most warrants get served.

Here is how they go:

"David 34,David 22, Warrant Service, sent to your screen."

STATE BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES REQUEST ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND:
NAME/SMITH, JOHN, W/M
DOB/01011960
BRO/BLU 509/165
MIS/PAROLE VIOLATION-ABSCOND FROM CUSTODY/SUPERVISED RELEASE/POSSESSION OF CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE WITH INTENT TO DELIVER
BOND/NO BOND
LKA/123 MAIN STREET, YOUR CITY
IMMEDIATELY CONFIRM WITH ORI
STATE BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES, 555-555-1234.

Dispatch probably checks the guy for local involvement and runs a CCH, too. If nothing major pops up, they go, they knock and they talk. The actual warrant is in a filing cabinet in another part of the state. The officers wouldn't have anything to pick up at the station, and it wouldn't be an efficient use of time and resources to send folks back to the station to get a copy EVERY time they served a warrant, especially when it is just going to be one paragraph teletype message like the one above.

Our process is a little more detailed, but we still don't dig up an actual hard copy of the warrant, because we don't need to. Since we don't need to, we don't bother, because it is a waste of time and resources. Everything I need is on the screen.

We can't enter on misdemeanors, but we can on felonies if we have a good reason to believe that someone is there or resides there. We typically ask for permission, just to be polite if for no other reason, but if it is a felony, we probably are going to come in and take a look, even if they say no.

Like I said, search warrants are different (it is embarassing when one of the Detectives forgets to bring the actual warrant, though, and somebody has to run back and get it, especially after the door has been breached and banged).
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 11:33:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 11:34:42 PM EDT by Rand]
...
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 11:36:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 11:38:54 PM EDT by Rand]

Originally Posted By natez:

Originally Posted By Rand:
So the officer needs a warrant in hand for searching a house?

But he doesnt need one in hand for an arrest  i understand that part.

Shouldnt they have the warrant in hand when gioing into a home to arrest though.
how long would it take to get a copy of a warrant in hand before going to a house?



That isn't how most warrants get served.

Here is how they go:

"David 34,David 22, Warrant Service, sent to your screen."

STATE BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES REQUEST ATTEMPT TO APPREHEND:
NAME/SMITH, JOHN, W/M
DOB/01011960
BRO/BLU 509/165
MIS/PAROLE VIOLATION-ABSCOND FROM CUSTODY/SUPERVISED RELEASE/POSSESSION OF CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE WITH INTENT TO DELIVER
BOND/NO BOND
LKA/123 MAIN STREET, YOUR CITY
IMMEDIATELY CONFIRM WITH ORI
STATE BOARD OF PARDONS AND PAROLES, 555-555-1234.

Dispatch probably checks the guy for local involvement and runs a CCH, too. If nothing major pops up, they go, they knock and they talk. The actual warrant is in a filing cabinet in another part of the state. The officers wouldn't have anything to pick up at the station, and it wouldn't be an efficient use of time and resources to send folks back to the station to get a copy EVERY time they served a warrant, especially when it is just going to be one paragraph teletype message like the one above.

Our process is a little more detailed, but we still don't dig up an actual hard copy of the warrant, because we don't need to. Since we don't need to, we don't bother, because it is a waste of time and resources. Everything I need is on the screen.

We can't enter on misdemeanors, but we can on felonies if we have a good reason to believe that someone is there or resides there. We typically ask for permission, just to be polite if for no other reason, but if it is a felony, we probably are going to come in and take a look, even if they say no.

Like I said, search warrants are different (it is embarassing when one of the Detectives forgets to bring the actual warrant, though, and somebody has to run back and get it, especially after the door has been breached and banged).



Ok thanks for explaining. We need and ask the leo board

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