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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/21/2003 12:41:45 PM EDT
excuse the ignorance but a 11" barrel looks cool and I am sure it is handy but wouldn't the ballastics be horrible and similar to a 22lr? how fast would a 5.56 go out of that short of a barrel? or with the right ammo is it a ok setup for close range?
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 12:43:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 12:49:28 PM EDT
Depends on your definition of close range.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 1:00:15 PM EDT
Pointless..... I would rather not get hit by it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 1:06:53 PM EDT
room clearing and such it would work wonders, but general combat no.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 1:12:34 PM EDT
Still better than any of the 9mm SMGs. And if there is a reason for the MP5's existance then there is a reason for the Commando's existance.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 1:22:46 PM EDT
Reading Plaster's "SOG" book right now. Those boys did a hell of a lot of damage to the NVA with said 11.5" barreled rifles.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 1:34:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 11:53:08 AM EDT by jt325i]
I've seen a few Spec ops guys usually doing security detail for some higher up toting these 11.5" barrel AR's. Definitely would not want to get hit by one but takes away a ton of velocity, cutting the effective range down. I'd say 40-50 yards a hit would still be fatal if it was in a vital area. I'd hate to have to try targets in the typical 100-200 yard range with a barrel that short though.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 1:49:55 PM EDT
[b]NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/b] I'll cry if my 11.5" sucks! Less is more! [i]gratuitous image posting[/i] [img]http://www.vzavenue.net/~eumenides/m16/CommandoBlasting1.jpg[/img] Seriously though, there is a big difference between the 14.5" and 11.5" in terms of power. There is also a big difference in terms of cool, that is until someone with an M60 or MP5 shows up...........
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 2:29:35 PM EDT
It's for the children. ED
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 2:44:15 PM EDT
I would rather have an MP5 actually. Quieter, more controllable, and it hits harder at all distances beyond where the 556 stops fragmenting.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:02:13 PM EDT
160th Aviation Regiment is getting 10.5" ARs as PDWs to replace the MP5K. So apparently not everyone agrees that the 9mm "hits harder" beyond the supposed fragmentation minimum of the short AR. But I dobut seriously they are using SS109 anyways. Even using M193, a 11.5in AR is going to do more damage. For one thing, it penetrates soft body armor, which a MP5 wont.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:06:38 PM EDT
Probably not in the jungles where distances are close, such as Vietnam.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:09:11 PM EDT
Hmm, I would think the bigger hole would be more deadly. But you are right about the body armor.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:09:29 PM EDT
An [b]excellent[/b] book! From the majority of those accounts, most SOG men liked their CARs.
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:34:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:38:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: Just know that M855 is a singularly BAD choice for use in 11.5" or shorter barrels. Fragmentation range is 0-5 yards, depending on a number of factors. .22LR indeed. -Troy
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Along with wolf or barnaul or GP90 and their steel jackets...
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 3:40:07 PM EDT
Since when did the "cool factor" count for shit when it comes to Guns=weapon=tool=keeping your ass alive?????
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 4:00:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2003 4:03:09 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By JohnBlade23: Since when did the "cool factor" count for shit when it comes to Guns=weapon=tool=keeping your ass alive?????
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Never. Is there a point to this statement?
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 4:18:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 4:28:17 PM EDT
Well, if you don't have 'users', at least there are some readers[Plaster is just 1 author of many as a source] here. The 'Commando'[XM-177E] performed great in Nam-don't know of anyone on the teams, MF or Group in general who chose anything else by preference.Same with LRRP's.[ALL excepting mission specific requirements: suppressed weapons, etc]. The Commando tears hell out of a body at combat ranges. From my experiences with various bullets on varmints and big game prior to Nam, it amazed me no end to get the results I got with the CAR on flesh.The 9mm FMJ purely sucks as a quick killer. Statements based on long term usage-not conjecture. I was using Super-Vel JHP in my Commander and M-19, but never saw any point in getting ANY'illegal' ammo for the CAR. If a shooter simply wanted more exposed guts, use a claymore! My only objection to the CAR was muzzle blast-after the initial mag dumps of an ambush [with shooters roughly on line], it seemed like 10 minutes before you could hear an extraction bird overhead:-)! I can understand the advantage of an MP5SD in 'house' combat on that basis-and know why head shots are de rigeour. Ghost
Link Posted: 5/21/2003 6:49:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JohnBlade23: Since when did the "cool factor" count for shit when it comes to Guns=weapon=tool=keeping your ass alive?????
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Lighten up, Francis! Nobody said it did. I didn't know the Digression Patrol had undercover members...... I shoot at a lot of different crap at 30 yards with my fake 80s Commando and it definately is not the same as using a 14.5" or 20" upper. Wolf runs great and goes bang but it also drills through more crap. Q3131A is pretty spectacular on big water bottles where the Russian stuff isn't. Longer barrels definately throw more shit around than my shorty. That's pretty unscientific but I believe it's accurate. The couple of times I've plinked at boards out at 100 yards there was much less "whack" when I was hitting versus hits from a 20" A2 upper. Once I scrape up a few more bucks I'm getting a Bushy 14.5" HBAR precisely because a measly three inches makes such a big difference.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:47:45 AM EDT
Well at least you can kill em with the muzzle blast and fireball. I suspect that .223 out of an 11" barrel is still much more effective than 9mm. 9mm FMJ as a stopping round sucks.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:42:40 AM EDT
Its all a matter of: A. Is it enough to get the job done if you do your part. B. Do you have room for anything bigger? The nicest thing? When you get home push out two pins and you can put back the 14.5".
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 12:13:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 1:18:22 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
The un-informed cool-factor gang went even shorter, 10.5": [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12452[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12451[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12449[/img] Very specialized units using them for specific purposes. A barrel that short wouldnt make a good general purpose rifle.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 12:21:12 PM EDT
Out to 50 yards with M193 you will get the much sought after fragmentation.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 12:23:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sherm8404: Yeah, but add a measlely three inches and it's the best thing since sliced bread. Go figure.
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At first I thought this was a reference to LT's thread, Mission Impossible II.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 12:51:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 1:08:27 PM EDT by Ridge]
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: The un-informed cool-factor gang went even shorter, 10.5": [url]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12452[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12451[/url] [url]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=12449[/url]
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COOL! [b]I[/b]-wanna-be-a-wannabe[8D]
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 12:57:18 PM EDT
I rather like being me TYVM. But thanks for sharing Richard.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 1:07:44 PM EDT
Seriously, I think they look cool, and must serve some purpose (however specialized) if the guys catching the bullets are using them. And you probably like being you because you do similar work (cop right?). But, my line of work is rather dull in that aspect, so all I can be is a wannabe.[:(] Oh and edited the orginal post because one letter changes the whole context, Sorry.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 1:13:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196: But thanks for sharing Richard.
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I had that coming. I honestly didn't mean to insult you (I respect you Lumpy196), it was seriously a typo. [noclue]
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 1:20:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 1:22:38 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
No harm no foul, I have this nasty tendency of just saying whatever pops into my head. I was on the harsh side too. [beer] I should have been clearer. The military units using these guns have a very specific purpose for them. The arent general purpose field guns. Military and Police units tend to use them strictly for CQB.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 3:15:03 PM EDT
Very specialized units using them for specific purposes. A barrel that short wouldnt make a good general purpose rifle.
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Hmm, be a interesting way to secure your Kwik-E-Mart. Better than a handgun.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 4:09:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:24:21 PM EDT
Win.55g: 11 1/2" 2872 16" 3132 20" 3259 [url]http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/releases/release/60917/68.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 10:23:20 PM EDT
You can get the same "Commando" look with a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel. Bushmaster sells 4.5 and 5.5 inch flash suppressors that will slide back over the barrel, either light weight or M4/heavy. I'm sure you all know this, but thought I'd throw it in. You can have the cool and the effective. I'm debating between a Commando FS vs. a Vortex or Phantom FS for my SP-1 carbine. TS
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:52:30 AM EDT
Some more "look cool" people who use Commandos: [url]http://www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm[/url]
The Company has several Colt Model 733 Commandos, commonly known as the CAR15. (Some in the inventory are other than the Model 733. These particular weapons were acquired from multiple sources, hence the lack of standardization). This carbine has an 11 1/2" standard barrel, collapsible stock, and is select fire—that is semi and full auto. It is 26" long with the stock retracted, and 30" long extended. It weighs approximately 6 pounds. Some have the RAS and can accept many of the SOPMOD Kit components. Some also have the fixed carry handle. As with all other things in life, there is no free lunch. The CAR 15 offers some real advantages in that it is significantly easier to maneuver in confined spaces (such as in PSD), but the trade off is in diminished terminal ballistic effectiveness (due to the shorter barrel it may not be significantly better then 9xl9mm).6 Maximum practical effective range is about 150 yards.7 The CAR15’s are used primarily by the Company staff who, for some strange reason, don’t want to carry the M9 service pistol. Imagine that? There are 35 CAR1S’s in the Company.
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Unless you are a Vietnam war re-enactor and want to be correct for the period, the long FH defeat the only real purpose for having a shorter than 14.5" barrel. The 733's use A2 flashhiders. They don't even use Vortex or Phantom-putting more length back on defeats the purpose. [img]http://www.forcerecon.com/images/strong/23bth.jpg[/img]
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