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Posted: 1/8/2003 5:33:18 AM EST
is there anything significant about a pre ban 10/22? what can be done with it? thanks.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 5:39:39 AM EST
About the only benefit I can see is the option of a folding stock.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 5:48:46 AM EST
[img]http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/Boomholzer/IM000009.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 5:49:51 AM EST
i've been checking the web and such, and that is about what i've come up with so far. the stocks seem to run about 100.00 additional as well. i have a marlin model 70 that i'm happy with, but do like the high cap mags available for the 10/22. now i'm wondering if a stainless 10/22 with folding stock might be a better option. looks as if it might get a little costly though...
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:07:58 AM EST
About the only thing you can do to a post-ban is put one feature on it. Basically your options would be a flash hider (pinned or threaded), threaded barrel, or pistol grip. (I haven't seen a folding stock without a pistol grip.) Pre-ban would let you have everything, including folding stock.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:17:37 AM EST
nice pic boom! thanks. so how hard are the pre ban's to come across? and do the people selling them usually know if they are pre ban or not? or is it just a matter of checking the serial number range?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:25:05 AM EST
Yeah-- what are the serial number ranges?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:27:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2003 6:28:03 AM EST by Max_Mike]
The only legal way to have a folding stock on a 10/22 is if it was on the rifle before 1994. If a rifle did not have the folding stock on it when the ban went into effect for legal purposes the rifle is forever (unless the 94 crime bill sunsets) post-ban. If you put a folding stock on any 10/22 that did not have one on it before the ban you will be creating an “assault weapon” and a felony. NO 10/22 is pre-ban unless it had the required “evil features” before the 94 crime bill went into effect no matter when the rifle was made or its serial number range.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:31:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: The only legal way to have a folding stock on a 10/22 is if it was on the rifle before 1994. If a rifle did not have the folding stock on it when the ban went into effect for legal purposes the rifle is forever (unless the 94 crime bill sunsets) post-ban. If you put a folding stock on any 10/22 that did not have one on it before the ban you will be creating an “assault weapon” and a felony. NO 10/22 is pre-ban unless it had the required “evil features” before the 94 crime bill went into effect no matter when the rifle was made or its serial number range.
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Why would a 10/22 differ from a AR as far as the AW ban legislation? Pre-ban ARs are allowed to be fitted with tele-stocks and other evil features (as replacement parts) after the ban as long as the receiver was manufactured before the ban.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:38:03 AM EST
That is incorrect. A pre-ban receiver must have been transferred to the purchaser in "Pre-Ban" configuration in order for it to be a grandfathered pre-ban rifle. Simply purchasing a preban lower does not allow you to add flash hider, telestock etc. The lower must have had 3 "evil" features at the time of transfer (every transfer) in order for it to remain a legitimate preban. Kinda sucks, but there are ways around the problem, if you think about it!
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:38:18 AM EST
This was in the back of mind as what I had come across. I'll be curious to hear what the difinitve word is...if there is one. -r
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: The only legal way to have a folding stock on a 10/22 is if it was on the rifle before 1994. If a rifle did not have the folding stock on it when the ban went into effect for legal purposes the rifle is forever (unless the 94 crime bill sunsets) post-ban. If you put a folding stock on any 10/22 that did not have one on it before the ban you will be creating an ?assault weapon? and a felony. NO 10/22 is pre-ban unless it had the required ?evil features? before the 94 crime bill went into effect no matter when the rifle was made or its serial number range.
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Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:39:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: The only legal way to have a folding stock on a 10/22 is if it was on the rifle before 1994. If a rifle did not have the folding stock on it when the ban went into effect for legal purposes the rifle is forever (unless the 94 crime bill sunsets) post-ban. If you put a folding stock on any 10/22 that did not have one on it before the ban you will be creating an “assault weapon” and a felony. NO 10/22 is pre-ban unless it had the required “evil features” before the 94 crime bill went into effect no matter when the rifle was made or its serial number range.
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That's just what the ATF states. ATF cannot legislate. Cite a case where someone has been nailed for this type of offense?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:41:47 AM EST
Did Ruger even sell the 10/22's in such a configuration? Or would they have had to come from other dealers that bought, built and then resold?
Originally Posted By Torf: That is incorrect. A pre-ban receiver must have been transferred to the purchaser in "Pre-Ban" configuration in order for it to be a grandfathered pre-ban rifle. Simply purchasing a preban lower does not allow you to add flash hider, telestock etc. The lower must have had 3 "evil" features at the time of transfer (every transfer) in order for it to remain a legitimate preban. Kinda sucks, but there are ways around the problem, if you think about it!
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Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:43:37 AM EST
Law or Opinion, it would certainly be difficult to prove you wrong when you claim that it is a legitimite preban. Same deal with a new 80% or less lower. "Yes, I machined it in 1991".
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:48:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By racebaiter: Did Ruger even sell the 10/22's in such a configuration? Or would they have had to come from other dealers that bought, built and then resold?
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Whether they did or didn't is immaterial. It was legal to add "evil" features before Sept. 1994, and people apparently did thus creating new 'Assault Weapons' while it was still legal. It just became illegal to create new AW's after this date. This INCLUDES non-AW guns made prior to Sept. 1994. I'm sure there were shops and outfits that made these conversions as well as individuals.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:51:22 AM EST
You can get a threaded barrel, so you can add a (legally registered) suppressor later.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 7:08:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By MadProfessor: You can get a threaded barrel, so you can add a (legally registered) suppressor later.
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True! Since a suppressor doubles as a flash hider, and a flash hider can have threads, this counts as ONE feature! Or just get a new barrel that's internally silenced...
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 7:13:00 AM EST
so the difference is that all ar15s had pistol grip, detachable mag, thredds/hider, meaning that any preban can be built in any configuration since most likley it was sold and always transfered that way. ..while the 10/22s did not have those features unless they were added by someone. if done before 94, then the 10/22 is legally a preban. if not, it seems to be rather sketchy. would the paper trail for pre ban 10/22s transferred to new owners after the ban indicate that the rifle was in an AW configuration? or could this be used to trip up an owner if some agency really wanted to put the screws to an indivdual? also, even a new 10/22 with rifle stock, threaded bbl and suppressor would be legal. correct?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 7:30:04 AM EST
The problem is that not all pre-ban rifles can retain pre-ban status. If it is ever transferred in non-preban config, it thereby loses it's grandfathered status, and thus unable to be returned to pre-ban status. Sure, most ARs were sold in Preban config prior to the ban, but many have been converted to postban status since 1994. These, unfortunately, are no longer grandfathered. Yes the paper trail may be confusing, unclear, or otherwise non-existant. Whether that helps or harms the owner of the gun is not known. It all depends on circumstances I suppose. I would feel comfortable doing a private party purchase of a pre-ban firearm with no paperwork. I would trust the seller if he said that the gun was a legitimate preban.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 11:53:52 AM EST
If you add a Pistol grip folding stock to a 10/22 that does not have one you are creating an assault weapon by the legal definition the ATF uses there is no gray area. The 10/22 has a detachable magazine the one defining evil feature. The pistol grip is the second evil feature. The folding Stock is the third evil feature and there by creates the assault weapon. There is no gray area. The ATF may never enforce this interpretation on your 10/22 but is it worth the risk. And even if there were a gray area and you could eventually prove you were right (which you are not) it would cost you 10’s of thousands in legal fee to prove you point… is a 10/22 with a folding stock worth it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 12:01:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Max_Mike: If you add a Pistol grip folding stock to a 10/22 that does not have one you are creating an assault weapon by the legal definition the ATF uses there is no gray area. The 10/22 has a detachable magazine the one defining evil feature. The pistol grip is the second evil feature. The folding Stock is the third evil feature and there by creates the assault weapon. There is no gray area. The ATF may never enforce this interpretation on your 10/22 but is it worth the risk. And even if there were a gray area and you could eventually prove you were right (which you are not) it would cost you 10’s of thousands in legal fee to prove you point… is a 10/22 with a folding stock worth it.
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Note: the detachable magazine is NOT an evil feature. Its part of the definition. If it didn't have a detachable mag, then the listed evil features do not apply. You can add one more evil feature to a basic post-ban 10/22.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 12:04:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Torf: Sure, most ARs were sold in Preban config prior to the ban, but many have been converted to postban status since 1994. These, unfortunately, are no longer grandfathered.
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Clarification: this is the ATF's opinion, and they also state that if you converted it to a post-ban config, and you still posess the pre-ban parts, its still a pre-ban, and can be converted back to sell it as a pre-ban.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 12:15:58 PM EST
I'm generally pretty conservative in my adherence to ATF's pronouncements but they are all wet on this transfer while not in AW status voids exemption. What is the basis for their reasoning?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 3:43:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/9/2003 4:39:06 AM EST
While we are on the topic, does anyone have a list of serials?
Link Posted: 1/9/2003 5:31:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By JCR: While we are on the topic, does anyone have a list of serials?
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[url]http://www.mp5.net/info/preban.htm#Ruger[/url] These numbers should be used for reference only, and a call placed to Ruger to verify.
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