Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 9/24/2002 6:33:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:36:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:37:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:43:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2002 2:29:00 PM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:45:32 PM EDT
I think it is a bunch of B/S sacrificing these two guys to kiss butt to Canada for a mistake during wartime conditions. How many other soldiers have been charged with this crime over the years? I can't think of any. To top it off these guys are reserves.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:49:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:54:11 PM EDT
The pilots willfully disobeyed orders and ignored the rules of engagement set out for them and as a result the Canadian soldiers died. I don’t think they deserve jail time but they have earned a court marshal and being broken out of the Air Force. Friendly fire accidents happen but this one would not have if they had followed orders and they should pay a price for that.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 6:59:12 PM EDT
You could try to make a case if it was an active pilot, a weak one at that. But please, I don't care how many hours flying or experience they have, they are not using their reflexes and skills training day in and day out for these kind of missions. The mistakes they made I fault for that reason.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 7:19:21 PM EDT
When someone tells you "Hold Fire," you hold fire unless a) shooting is required to save the life of yourself or your wingman or b) you are directly ordered to fire, preferably with the tape on. These guys, while obviously skilled pilots, made a huge error in judgement. The phrase "I am rolling in, in self-defense" sounds, to this combat aviator, like he was either talking himself into the drop or was covering for a marginal drop with a verbal smokescreen. If you heard a police officer say to his partner, "I am shooting in self-defence," would you be inclined to believe his life was really in danger? These guys could have maneuvered, climbed, and/or extended just as easily as they could have rolled in. After the "abort" call, they ought to have waited.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 7:27:15 PM EDT
They were ordered not to engage and still did. I don’t care how good of pilot they are or weather Reserve, National Guard, or Regular Air Force they should not be allowed back in a cockpit. They killed those Canadian soldiers because they disobeyed direct orders.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 7:55:42 PM EDT
I drive past the 183TFW's gates everyday, everyday I'm reminded of it. These guys fly over my neighborhood all the time. Our community's proud to have them. I wasn't there and I'm not a combat pilot, so my opinion is a moot point. I just wonder if all servicemen will need a lawyer before they pull the trigger. A 64 year jail sentence may cause some to hesitate, is that a good thing on the battlefield?
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 7:56:27 PM EDT
I'm not about to arm chair quarterback this one. War is a terrible thing, and the unintentional killing of friendlies has been around since the very first encounter between hostile groups. Let the military attend to it's own internal affairs as the military sees fit.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 8:06:12 PM EDT
Any word about these pilots being issued amphetamines ( "go pills" )? They made a serious mistake, but it would set a bad precedent to use them as scapegoats to appease Canada or cover up lapses in the chain of command. F14Scott makes an important point.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 8:15:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2002 8:21:24 PM EDT by captainpooby]
They "reduced speed" in the face of " hostile fire" then disobeyed an order to hold fire to "roll in in self defense"? That means he had to turn around to drop the ordinance, right? Why not hold fire and go to burners? Sounds like no real threat. Just a guy looking to drop a bomb on some bad guys who werent there.JMHO Dont forget, there are four dead soldiers, and their families.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 8:26:20 PM EDT
Kiss Canada's ass? Bush didn't even say he was sorry for the incident except in a private conference to our Priminister. If some Canadians disobeyed orders and killed some Americans don't you think ATLEAST our Priminister would say sorry to the American public on behalf of Canadians, OR SOMETHING MORE? And for your information even the families of those Canadian soldiers think that all this crap is over the edge, stating that they don't want anymore children to be missing their fathers. If you want to kiss our asses, start by following the free trade agreement you AGREED to.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 11:07:03 PM EDT
I was reading in Bob Brown's Soldier of Fortune Magazine, I forget which issue; but I remember reading that the two pilots were told to hold fire pending verification. To me it would be common sense; to me as a firearms ownere, I do not shoot at a target unless it has been positively identified.
Link Posted: 9/24/2002 11:31:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2002 11:31:45 PM EDT by prk]
Originally Posted By rallywagon: {misguided attempt at humor deleted} IBTL -- THE BIG LOCK -- (and possibly before I get my ass booted!)
View Quote
I know you were just trying to inject a little humor into the situation, but it's not in good taste - I don't think the families of those four guys would laugh at it, or many other Canadians either. If you want to do a good natured rant against Canadians, why not put it (without reference to the 4 dead guys and the 2 pilots) in its own thread and then delete your post in THIS thread? This is a serious and calm thread. Why wreck it?
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 2:11:30 AM EDT
From all the facts stated it would appear that they deliberately disobeyed an order, thus it resulted in lives lost! The military takes following orders very seriously,you obey the orders given, if you do not then there are serious consequences, period! Civilian life and military life is so much different. Sorry these guys messed up, they disobeyed an order, this in itself is grounds for a court-marshal under the UCMJ, if you dont like it, go whine to your congressmen or something! Proper action would have been to follow the orders given. Even if the tracers they were seeing were from firearms, all they would have needed to do is climb to a safe altitude,await confermation as to whether it was friendlies or not, then proceed from there! The United States Government has given pilots flying fighter planes a great responsibility, and they are fully aware of this, and are quite aware of the consequences that will arise if they fail to respect that responsibility. Part of flying fighter planes is following orders, and complying with rules of engagment! Break the rules and disobey orders, well you asked for the trouble to happen! Some have said you dont have time to think,well you may be right on that, but that is why it is so important to follow orders that are given,even if you dont like them or agree with them, you see in civilain life you have the choice to not follow orders, in the military sure you can choose to not follow orders, but it will cost you a court marshal! Although I think 64 years in prison is a little harsh, the minimum that should be done is a court marshal to get these guys out of the Air force for good! Friendly fire in wars is usually an accident, this was no accident, the pilot refused to take evasive measures and to follow orders! Also canada has some good ground troops on the ground there! They have excellent sniper teams doing some very good work over there killing lots of terrorists! This was not your usual friendly fire incident, this was an incident that resulted from a man not obeying direct orders! nothing more and nothing less!
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 7:15:13 AM EDT
Flying fighters you can pretty much do whatever you want and get away with it as long as you don't bend any metal or more importantly kill anyone. Well these guys intentionally broke the rules and killed some innocent folks and they are going to have to pay for it. The last thing you do taking ground fire is slow down and circle back over the threat. If it was a valid threat they could have flown away from it and then come back if and when it was determined to be hostile target. Sorry but the flight lead is just as responsible because he didn't try to prevent a member of his flight from violating the ROE. He is responsible for the safe conduct of his flight. That being said, I don't think a large amount if any, prison time is justified. They'll be paying for the rest of their lives as it is.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 7:24:48 AM EDT
Most "friendly fire" incidents occur in the heat of battle. That means bullets are flying and the pressure is on. Quickly identifiying and engaging (or not enagaging) a target is difficult. Those two pilots were not currently "engaged" and had the time and information available to accurately identify the targets as FRIENDLY. They chose not to. GROSS NEGLIGENCE is not the same as making a mistake while performing your duties in a lawful/orderly manner. They chose to disregard ROE and specific "hold" orders, so they willfully committed a dangerous and preventable act. At the very least, they shouldn't be flying.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 8:51:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2002 8:52:25 AM EDT by Dugster]
At no time were these pilots and aircraft in any danger, the self defense argument is total B.S. F16's flying high and fast are under no threat from small arms fire on the ground. They were not engaged in a target and were ordered not to engage, these guy's got trigger happy they wanted their pound of flesh. Like others have stated this is not a traditional friendly fire incident, if this happened during the heat of battle it would be a whole other story. I do not believe this was murder, this is negligence and from a military stand point it is disobeying a direct order that resulted in the death of allied forces. What the punishment should be I do not know. Never flying again would be a start but I do believe these pilots should be given a second chance and should not spend most of the rest of their lives in prison I am sure they will feel tremendous guilt for the rest of their lives anyway.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 12:47:37 PM EDT
Sounds kinda flakey to me... I mean, if they had SAMs being fired, maybe... They were ordered to hold their fire too. I don't think they should get 64 years, nor should the flight commander get hammered. But, they guy who dropped... It sounds to me like he was really in the wrong. 'course, I wasn't there... So what do I know.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 12:54:52 PM EDT
Since you asked for opinions... They definately broke the rules and disobeyed orders and should be prosecuted for that. Drummed out of the Nat'l Guard, the whole 9 yards. But I think the manslaughter charges are a little over the top. These guys should be made an example of, because the incident is an example of what can happen when you don't obey orders and follow regs.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:01:54 PM EDT
O.k., when this happened I was over there, i went through basic with a bud that got a piece of iron in his side because of it. The DID NOT fire in the air, the pilots had orders to hold fire.Did the disobey and act unprofessionally, did they hotdog? yes. Should they get 64 yrs, I don't think so, should they have their nuts stomped on?, YES. Oh, p.s., you'd think rallywagon would know better being a cop and all, trying to be funny or not. I don't knoe too many guys here who aren't happy to be canadian (actually in the forces we chuck shit at you all the time!) p.p.s. We confine most of the french up north, and if you guys invade I'm taking Maine, cripes, my grandma could take Maine! (I know, my wifes from there)
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:14:23 PM EDT
OH, one more thing, it was our snipers who took out mortar positions that could've rained steel on you guys during anaconda, it was one of our guys who just got the longest confirmed shot, (Sorry Carlos.) And it was our guys all over at least two articles of soldier of fortune. Sorry, I'm 1/4 yank but rallyass just struck a nerve, wonder how family of those guys would feel reading his crap. I changed my mind about one thing, if you take us over, just let me have the cheaper, highr octane gas my "cuda likes, and let me keep my Ar's and my L1A1, Okay?
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:15:23 PM EDT
OH, one more thing, it was our snipers who took out mortar positions that could've rained steel on you guys during anaconda, it was one of our guys who just got the longest confirmed shot, (Sorry Carlos.) And it was our guys all over at least two articles of soldier of fortune. Sorry, I'm 1/4 yank but rallyass just struck a nerve, wonder how family of those guys would feel reading his crap. I changed my mind about one thing, if you take us over, just let me have the cheaper, higher octane gas my "cuda likes, and let me keep my Ar's and my L1A1, Okay?
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:33:32 PM EDT
I remember sitting in my little M1 watching A-10's buzz around and wondering if the guy in the bird had any idea where he was and who we were. Contemplating being on the receiving end of friendly fire makes me a little critical of pilots who screw the pooch and kill friendlies in the process. That said, I don't think there's anything criminal in what these pilots did. If they attacked against orders or without authorization then they should be relieved of duty, and maybe tossed out. I for damn sure don't see anything worth 64 years in the stockade.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 2:22:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2002 3:03:30 PM EDT by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 3:31:04 PM EDT
Hey RABID see my post on this thread, I came in total defense of the Canadian sniper teams over there in Afgahnistan! Your boys over there are tearing stuff up! And our forces are greatlly appreciative of the help that the Canadian Sniper teams are giveing over there! I do believe the Canadian Sniper Teams have more then once saved the behinds of US Troops over there!
Top Top