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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:28:19 AM EST
we all know its possible; what are some of the precausions that are being taken?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:31:27 AM EST
The Israelis used to have this problem, until they started arming their teachers. Problem went away, attacking kindergartens became too dangerous for brave Palestinians patriots.



September 02, 2004, 10:15 p.m.
Follow the Leader
Israel and Thailand set an example by arming teachers.


Islamist terrorists in Beslan, Russia, are currently holding hundreds of children hostage, threatening to execute them. No one knows how this horrible situation will end; but we do know that it could have been prevented. Decades ago, Israel adopted a policy that swiftly ended terrorist attacks against schools. Earlier this year, Thailand adopted a similar approach. It is politically incorrect, but it does have the advantage of saving the lives of children and teachers. The policy? Encourage teachers to carry firearms.

Muslim extremists in Thailand’s southern provinces of Narathiwat, Yala, and Pattani have been carrying out a terrorist campaign, seeking to create an Islamic state independent of Thailand, whose population is predominantly Buddhist.

Most teachers are Buddhists, and they have been a key target of the terrorists, who have also perpetrated arsons against dozens of schools.

As reported by the Associated Press (“Thailand allows teachers in restive south to carry guns for protection”) on April 27, 2004, “Interior Minister Bhokin Bhalakula ordered provincial governors to give teachers licenses to buy guns if they want to even though it would mean bringing firearms into the classrooms when the region's 925 schools reopen May 17 after two months of summer holiday.”

The A.P. article explained: “Pairat Wihakarat, the president of a teachers’ union in the three provinces, said more than 1,700 teachers have already asked for transfers to safer areas. Those who are willing to stay want to carry guns to protect themselves, he said.”

Gun-control laws in Thailand are extremely strict, and are being tightened even more because of three school shootings (perpetrated by students) that took place in a single week in June 2003. Two students were killed.

But though Thailand’s government is extremely hostile to gun ownership in general, it has recognized that teachers ought to be able to safeguard their students and themselves.

Will Thailand’s new strategy work? It did in Israel, as David Schiller detailed in an interview with Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. Schiller was born in West Germany and moved to Israel, where he served in the military as a weapons specialist. He later returned to Germany, and was hired as a counterterrorism expert by the Berlin police office, as well as by police forces of other German cities. For a while he worked in the terrorism research office of the RAND corporation, and for several years he published a German gun magazine.

Schiller recalls that Palestine Liberation Organization attacks on Israeli schools began during Passover 1974. The first attack was aimed at a school in Galilee. When the PLO terrorists found that it was closed because of Passover weekend, they murdered several people in a nearby apartment building.

Then, on May 15, 1974, in Maalot:

Three PLO gunmen, after making their way through the border fence, first shot up a van load full of workers returning from a tobacco factory (incidentally these people happened to be Galilee Arabs, not Jews), then they entered the school compound of Maalot. First they murdered the housekeeper, his wife and one of their kids, then they took a whole group of nearly 100 kids and their teachers hostage. These were staying overnight at the school, as they were on a hiking trip. In the end, the deadline ran out, and the army’s special unit assaulted the building. During the rescue attempt, the gunmen blew their explosive charges and sprayed the kids with machine-gun fire. 25 people died, 66 wounded.

Israel at the time had some strict gun laws, left over from the days of British colonialism, when the British rulers tried to prevent the Jews from owning guns.

After vigorous debate, the government began allowing army reservists to keep their weapons with them. Handgun carry permits were given to any Israeli with a clean record who lived in the most dangerous areas: Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

All over Israel, guns became pervasive in the schools:

Teachers and kindergarten nurses now started to carry guns, schools were protected by parents (and often grandpas) guarding them in voluntary shifts. No school group went on a hike or trip without armed guards. The Police involved the citizens in a voluntary civil guard project “Mishmar Esrachi,” which even had its own sniper teams. The Army’s Youth Group program, “Gadna”, trained 15 to 16-year-old kids in gun safety and guard procedures and the older high-school boys got involved with the Mishmar Esrachi. During one noted incident, the “Herzliyah Bus massacre” (March ’78, hijacking of a bus, 37 dead, 76 wounded), these youngsters were involved in the overall security measures in which the whole area between North Tel Aviv and the resort town of Herzlyiah was blocked off, manning roadblocks with the police, guarding schools kindergartens, etc.

After a while, “When the message got around to the PLO groups and a couple infiltration attempts failed, the attacks against schools ceased.”

This is not to say that Palestinian terrorists never target schools. In late May 2002, an Israeli teacher shot a suicide terrorist before he could harm anyone.

On May 31, 2002, as reported by Israel National News, a terrorist threw a grenade and began shooting at a kindergarten in Shavei Shomron. Then, instead of closing in on the children, he abruptly fled the kindergarten and began shooting up the nearby neighborhood. Apparently he realized that the kindergarten was sure to have armed adults, and that he could not stay at the school long enough to make sure he actually murdered someone.

Unfortunately for the terrorist, “David Elbaz, owner of the local mini-market, gave chase and killed him with gunshots. In addition to several grenades and the weapon the terrorist carried on him, security sweeps revealed several explosive devices that he had intended to detonate during the thwarted attack.”

People can spend months and years studying the “root causes” of terrorism, and pondering the merits of the grievances of Islamic terrorists in Malaysia, Israel, and Russia. But it’s fair to say that schoolchildren and teachers are not legitimate targets even of people who have legitimate grievances.

No one knows if civilized nations will ever eliminate the root causes of terrorism. But we do know that terrorist attacks on schools and schoolchildren could be almost completely eliminated in a very short time — if every nation at risk of terrorist attacks on schools began following the lead of Thailand and Israel.

Adults have a duty to protect children. In Beslan at this very moment, seven people are dead, and hundreds more are in deadly peril, because the teachers lacked the tools to stop the evildoers. If we are really serious about gun laws that protect “the children,” then it seems clear that — whatever other gun laws a society adopts — every civilized nation at risk of terrorist attack ought to ensure that armed teachers can protect innocent children.

— David Kopel is research director of the Independence Institute.


Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:34:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:35:22 AM EST
Im sure the FBI HRT are brushing up on their skills>

God Forbid it would happen here.Thats why we need to kill them on the other side of the oceans!
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:37:11 AM EST
If I had tenure, I'd defintiely suggest to our dean that we invest in a good gun safe, which would be kept in the dean's office - stocked with a couple of ARs. The faculty and graduate students with military experience would have keys, and nobody else. (We always have several students with military bacground - this year we've got five, two of whom were officers in the 101st). We've also got several faculty who've been infantry (myself, a couple of israelis, etc). At any given time, several of us are usually in the building - and that might be a nice emergency plan to fall back on if the worst were ever to happen. Nothing would suck more than to be completly defenseless, and have to be dependent on some campus rent-a-cop with a glock 9mm who is not necessarily prepared to risk her/his life for the shitty salary we probably pay them.

I know it would never fly, though (especialyl with a gun ban on campus already - that'll protect us ) - but I think it would be a great idea.

If I ever DO get tenure, I will start annoying people with this idea, if nothing else just to get it on the table so that maybe people will at least talk about it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:39:39 AM EST
No way, never gonna happen here, we'll never see it!

Armed teachers that is. Our school systems are way to liberal as it is so there is no way we would ever arm teachers. If and when an attack on one of schools happens here the liberals will do what they always do, sympathize with the attackers and blame Bush for the problem.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:47:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
If I had tenure, I'd defintiely suggest to our dean that we invest in a good gun safe, which would be kept in the dean's office -




Kept in the dean's office?

How bout right in the classrooms? On the teachers person. Several more in his/her desk?
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:47:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jm03:
Im sure the FBI HRT are brushing up on their skills>

God Forbid it would happen here.Thats why we need to kill them on the other side of the oceans!



My thoughts exactly. If Chechen MUSLIM terrorists took over one of our schools, HRT would come on over and light them up.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:52:09 AM EST
makes sense....
yall right though; schools ain't never going to allow the propper officials have access to firearms, etc.--more than guns are needed, like training and experience
kinda makes me wonder on those "no-gun on campus regulations"--do you think the bad guys are going to obey that rule?

our closest FBI HRT is like 2hs away
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:08:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
makes sense....
yall right though; schools ain't never going to allow the propper officials have access to firearms, etc.--more than guns are needed, like training and experience
kinda makes me wonder on those "no-gun on campus regulations"--do you think the bad guys are going to obey that rule?

our closest FBI HRT is like 2hs away



Necessity is the mother of invention, change ,we have armed pilots now.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:19:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jm03:
Im sure the FBI HRT are brushing up on their skills>

God Forbid it would happen here.Thats why we need to kill them on the other side of the oceans!



They can brush up all they want but it won’t help it is already to late by the time the FBI HRT gets there. If you have terrorist determined to kill get into the school, mine the school, set up explosives to collapse the roof, they are armed with grenades and automatic weapons ect. the result is a blood bath NO MATTER who makes the assault.

The only way you can stop the end game bloodbath is to stop them before they get established in the school… or in other words arm the teachers.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 9:26:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:46:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 10:48:50 AM EST by M4arc]

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
if a school is taken here, the result will end much the same as in beslan.

no amount of snipers, swat teams, night vision gear or fancy knee pads is going to prevent the carnage.

it will end badly.

our only hope is to kill the bastards before they can take control.




I agree. HRT isn't going to light anything up. We will negotiate, negotiate and negotiate until we're blue in the face but the bottom line is once they are in the result will be very bad. It the American public believes that children died as a result of HRT lighting it up then their ass will be in the hot seat.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:48:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
If I had tenure, I'd defintiely suggest to our dean that we invest in a good gun safe, which would be kept in the dean's office -




Kept in the dean's office?

How bout right in the classrooms? On the teachers person. Several more in his/her desk?



I was just trying to come up with something that might even be remotely considered doable. The idea of firearms in classrooms or on teachers would probably not fly in ANY school anywhere.


Plus - given some of my students, you don't want to put a gun within my reach in the classroom (kidding, of course)
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:57:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
I was just trying to come up with something that might even be remotely considered doable. The idea of firearms in classrooms or on teachers would probably not fly in ANY school anywhere.



I've been scratching my head over this too. I'm convinced of only two things:

1) "Lock-Down" policy is a very bad idea. It might work against a standard issue nut case, but it is a non-starter against a martyr-wanna be. I think schools need to evacuate, not hunker down.

2) The only hope of reduced fatalities is early interdiction.


Maybe the fear of guns will fade when faced with the reality of terrorists.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 10:59:03 AM EST
Expect the popo and SWAT to respond just like they did at Columbine - three hours AFTER they start shooting (y)our children.


CMOS


Link Posted: 9/5/2004 11:07:31 AM EST
I don't think anybody has trained for a massive hostage situation as big as that one. Even Entebbe wasn't that big.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 11:12:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By CMOS:
Expect the popo and SWAT to respond just like they did at Columbine - three hours AFTER they start shooting (y)our children.


Columbine was my wake-up call when it came to understanding what the police can and might do if such an event were occur.

If I was a parent of a child at Columbine, I'd be the cops' worst nightmare. That performance was pathetic.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 11:58:51 AM EST
I'm not sure even the FBI HRT would be big enough to deal with something on the scale of the Russian school takeover. I think they'd just about have to call in the military.

Armed teachers won't prevent a takeover on the scale of the Russian one. The assault force had about 30 members, and some teachers with pistols aren't going to stop that. But they could prevent the terrorists from establishing immediate control of the premises and give students a chance to escape. If the first ten minutes are chaotic at least some of the students and teachers could escape the building.

After that it's going to turn out badly.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:21:46 PM EST
BTW, the terrorists used another tactic that has become popular: posing as police. The assault force came in wtih a military truck led by a police car. They're trying to gain a critical early advantage in the assault.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:35:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By CMOS:
Expect the popo and SWAT to respond just like they did at Columbine - three hours AFTER they start shooting (y)our children.


Columbine was my wake-up call when it came to understanding what the police can and might do if such an event were occur.

If I was a parent of a child at Columbine, I'd be the cops' worst nightmare. That performance was pathetic.





Wobblin - my point exactly. The police would have to shoot ME to keep me from going in to help those kids. Liability, PC, and "going home at the end of the shift" be dammed.

CMOS
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 12:46:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
if a school is taken here, the result will end much the same as in beslan.

no amount of snipers, swat teams, night vision gear or fancy knee pads is going to prevent the carnage.

it will end badly.

our only hope is to kill the bastards before they can take control.



Agreed. At the first yell of "allahu akbar," the fight or flight needs to be put into motion. It's just like being in a gang area and having a carload of homies pull up to you and ask, "What set you from?" There is no answer that will stop the impending bullets from flying.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:06:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By bvmjethead:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:If I had tenure, I'd defintiely suggest to our dean that we invest in a good gun safe, which would be kept in the dean's office -



Kept in the dean's office?

How bout right in the classrooms? On the teachers person. Several more in his/her desk?



They will just hit the office first so they can have an extra ammo supply.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:14:54 PM EST
If it happened here our children would be slaughtered.

We are too ignorant to think it could happen here.

Just as we could not beleive the 9/11 hijackers would take their own lives.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:17:39 PM EST
Arm our teachers? That will NEVER happen.
Our society would rather see their children slaughtered,
then arm a teacher or have guns in school.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:20:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By CMOS:
Expect the popo and SWAT to respond just like they did at Columbine - three hours AFTER they start shooting (y)our children.


Columbine was my wake-up call when it came to understanding what the police can and might do if such an event were occur.

If I was a parent of a child at Columbine, I'd be the cops' worst nightmare. That performance was pathetic.


A lot has changed about officer response since Columbine, in case you've missed the multitude of threads on that topic in recent years.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:27:25 PM EST
What would happen ??
The same thing that has happened with 9/11.
Here we are only a couple of years from 9/11 and the media and many of the sheeple say its not right to bring up in a Presidential election.
As long as the sheeple have their cable tv, the shelves are full at the supemarket and wal-mart, they can borrow and spend to their hearts content, all manner of entertainment to keep their minds off of it, they will forget about any disaster or attack.
Hell, we can't even bad mouth our enemies on this site.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:31:43 PM EST
This summer, Pelham, NH actually had a Terror drill where the bad guys wind up going into the
local school at some point. I didn't follow it too much, but FBI and all the surrounding towns
were involved, and alot of dough spent to do this drill with all the local LE agencies in
the area. I think a few kids even volunteered to be casuallties.

Was a big deal, announced weeks ahead so people in town wouldn't panic, and the roads were
blocked for a couple hours, like they plan to do if the real thing happened. The scenario played
out different than Russia, but the bad guys wound up going into a school and in a simulated
fashion shot kids that needed simulated medical attention.



Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:32:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Hell, we can't even bad mouth our enemies on this site.



If people would be more civil instead of the "kill all the Muslims" posts you see, there would not be a problem.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:34:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By M4arc:
No way, never gonna happen here, we'll never see it!

Armed teachers that is. Our school systems are way to liberal as it is so there is no way we would ever arm teachers. If and when an attack on one of schools happens here the liberals will do what they always do, sympathize with the attackers and blame Bush for the problem.



And call for more gun bans.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:39:45 PM EST
There isn't any stopping something like this from happening, plain and simple. There is no way to stop 30 heavily armed, crazed muslime scum from taking over a school like this, and no way for it to end well once it begins. They are truly willing to die and they don't really expect any of their demands to be met, it's a suicide mission and they know it and there is no way to talk them down or get them out. And even if we had 15 ARs locked up in the school office it wouldn't do one licks worth of good, no one would be able to get to them in time to do jack. Even if a few children escape with the 1500+ student sizes of most schools here they're going to get hundreds of hostages no matter what.

The only hope for stopping it is to uncover the plan and nab the muslimes before they even start their attack. After that we'd have several hundred kids dead just like the Russians no matter what whizbang HRT unit was put on the case... Not when the terrorists would just as well blow themselves up and take a few kids with them, if it was your standard criminals who didn't want to die it would be one thing, but there is just no way to deal with these people...
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:40:54 PM EST

www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20040529/NH_001.htm

First-responders pass test in mock school disaster

By Peter Hartzel
Staff Writer

PELHAM, N.H. -- A mock disaster drill at Pelham High School yesterday involved not only emergency responders, but students who enthusiastically got in on the act.

Sharpshooters aimed assault rifles at the doorway and emergency vehicles descended upon the scene, as crackling police radios filled in the picture: a deadly "attack" was underway at the school.

"Let me see you. Place your items on the ground right now!" an officer shouted at one student. "Turn around! Turn around!"

Though it was only a drill, the emergency personnel and students recruited to act out the scene betrayed no lack of urgency as they scrambled to respond to a simulated chemical strike. After all, they said, there's a reason these "disaster incidents" are conducted: they could happen for real.

Officials from more than a dozen federal, state, regional and local agencies took part in the training exercise, including the New Hampshire Office of Emergency Management, the Boston FBI office, the Nashua Bomb Squad and the Southeastern New Hampshire Special Operations Unit. Planning had been underway since October for the drill, which the Pelham police and fire departments coordinated with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security as a test of emergency response plans for the town and the school district.

"You need to test that plan, put it into play, evaluate -- you're going to learn something one way or another," said Les Cartier, hazardous materials coordinator with the New Hampshire Fire Marshal's office.

The key to engineering an authentic-seeming emergency was to keep the first responders from learning in advance details about the supposed threat. They knew the scene of the action was to be the high school, but that was it.

"We had no idea what to expect," said Pelham police Officer Matt Moore. "The big thing is communication. Your stress level goes up."

Lynn Trudel, a Pelham High senior, found the simulated drama believable.

"It just makes your emotions run so high. Everything was so real you don't even have to act," she said.

Under the scenario, an unidentified suspect was believed to be still lurking in the building -- in the "hot zone" -- after firing gun shots that injured or killed about 20 people, including students and police officers. The "perpetrator" also released a deadly chemical into the school library.

The scenario left deliberately vague whether the perpetrator was a domestic attacker or foreign terrorist, said Richard Hanegan of the Pelham Fire Department.

"We wanted something that combined Columbine, Oklahoma City and what happened on 9/11 -- all the big things that could happen," Hanegan said. "The goal was to better deal with emergency preparedness and what today's environment is giving us."

"(At this point) you have to ask, how many do we have down? Are there mass casualties? There's a lot of things that have to be answered in a short amount of time," Cartier said.

By including a threat of a chemical attack as well as gunfire, the exercise allowed officials to test various components of their emergency response plans. But for the students, it was the echoes of the Columbine High School massacre that seemed to resonate more deeply than a possible terrorist attack.

"I think it's good that they're doing it because anyone could come in with a gun at anytime," said Kate Mendes, a Pelham High sophomore and Drama Club member who dutifully filled the role of a victim.

After a lockdown was announced over the school's public-address system, students in all classes followed the guidelines and hunkered down while authorities pursued the perpetrator. But some students expressed doubt that the response would be so orderly in the event of an actual attack.

"I think it would be a little more chaotic," said senior Lindsey Holmes.

Mendes agreed. "Everyone would scream and it would be hectic. You would see people heading for the doors," she said.

Hanegan, one of the event's organizers, said some parents complained about the drill and questioned the use of class time. But he maintained it a "good learning experience" too important to pass up.

"It's better to get those complaints than the type of complaints we would get if we had lost somebody in their family due to a situation that had happened today and we hadn't been prepared to handle it," he said.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:42:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By ED_P:
This summer, Pelham, NH actually had a Terror drill where the bad guys wind up going into the
local school at some point. I didn't follow it too much, but FBI and all the surrounding towns
were involved, and alot of dough spent to do this drill with all the local LE agencies in
the area. I think a few kids even volunteered to be casuallties.

Was a big deal, announced weeks ahead so people in town wouldn't panic, and the roads were
blocked for a couple hours, like they plan to do if the real thing happened. The scenario played
out different than Russia, but the bad guys wound up going into a school and in a simulated
fashion shot kids that needed simulated medical attention.






That has got to have a deterrance effect, if the terrorists know the school has been rehearsing, running drills...seems like they might pick a different school.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:53:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 3:00:37 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
we all know its possible; what are some of the precausions that are being taken?



Well, then we will have a serious problem on our hands that will make AQ look like a picnic - a domestic revolutionary group with a 'personal' beef taking action against the government...

Look at world terrorisim and see WHO traditionally takes hostages:

Al Queda (the only true 'international' terror org) does NOT, except in Saudi where they are a local revolutionary movement...

Local separatist terror movements are the only ones who do this. Fortunately, we do not have one in this country.

Queda will not waste the resources to attack a single school when they could carry out 5-20 bombings with the same manpower.

If you send 50-100 Ts to this country, what would you rather do: Take over a school & kill 200 or so, or committ 10-20 large (OKC or WTC sized) bombings and have the toll over a thousand?


Civillians with firearms aren't going to be any use against terror, unless an armed citizen happens to stumble upon an AQ team planting their bomb, or they try and jack another plane & get taken down by the (ostensibly civillian, but usually military reservist) pilots...

It's not worth it for AQ to send single suicide bombers (which is a Palestinian thing anyway, fed by the proximity of the breeding ground (West Bank) to the target (Israel). They do it that way because a SB can walk from 'home base' to the target. Here, they have to sneak them in from overseas, get to the target, and for that you kill what, 18 people?), or expend several qualified teams on a petty-ante hostage event...

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:15:08 PM EST
The United States will not have the stones to do what has to be done until it happens. Ref: 9/11/01. We knew terrorists were operating freely around the world. We knew they would want to poke the US in the eye... but we didn't do a whole lot about it until 9/12/01. Not blaming any administration at this point; Joe and Suzy America simply do not have the willpower (or the stomachs) to insist we do what needs doing.

This is the unthinkable for us. We simply do not work this way. That's why it's such a horror when it does happen. Even though it happened in Russia (and has happened in other countries) we, here don't believe it will happen here... and thus it probably will. Sad.

There is a first time for everything. My sincere hope and prayer is that both we, and the Russians, will learn from Beslan and ensure there isn't a second time, anywhere.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:21:02 PM EST
I have some special prospective on this...this is a long post I felt seriously enough about it to actually write it in a WP so please read it through.

#1 Most schools (all I imagine) now have a "red alert drill" program, same as tornado/fire drills. The objective is to lock the doors and hide away from windows. This is, one hundred percent, the best thing to do in the situations that will [most likely] occur.

#2 If you disagree with me then I would like you to please outline your training and experience moving hundreds of kids in an organized and safe manner.

#3 The locked doors have proven to be a deterrent to deranged shooters in the past. Remember, school doors are a good bit more secure than household or many commercial doors. Also remember that the most likely occurrence is a single deranged nut-job with a civilian rifle/shotgun/pistol.

#4 Large groups of children moving around present an excellent target to said deranged nut-job, for shooting or hostage taking.

#5 If the situation becomes such that E&E is possible or necessary the kids will be in smaller groups (class size) led by an adult they know and trust. This is more important in elementary/middle grades. (I teach high school)

#6 If you, a parent, tries to sneak in trying to rescue your child you could possibly succeed against a single deranged assailant. In the situation in Russia you would have been killed, and possibly taken more of the kids with you. In most USA situations there will (hopefully soon) be snipers waiting to cap the deranged assailant, if you are walking around looking for your child, through a scope you will look exactly like a deranged nut-job.

#7 You do not have a sense or understanding of the willingness and desire of most teachers towards protecting their students. If I see someone in the school, armed, I will do whatever I can to KILL YOU, I will not recognize you as a concerned parent I will perceive you as the assailant. I will be armed with an oyster knife (more on teachers carrying later). If you have a gun you will probably win, but there are plenty of ambush sites in my hallway and room. My personal expectation is to lose but hopefully disarm/distract you and allow the kids to escape or react. I think many teachers would, in the situation, react the same way.

On school hostage situations in general: This is a freaking evil vicious nightmare. The perpetrators, whether a single kid upset over getting an F or an organized terrorist organization, should be pursued and destroyed at any expense. By their very nature schools are BAD places to enter in to CQB situations. CQB situations are made worse by the multiple hostage possibilities.

On teachers carrying: Let me simply relate a true story. In Pearl Mississippi a school administrator disarmed a student who had killed two fellow students. He had to run a half mile (or so) to recover his gun from his truck. The man had always kept a gun in his truck, even after federal law made it illegal to have a gun within 1000 yards of a school, he didn’t break the law (until the gun was needed.) If it was not for this law those two students might be alive. [rant on] Think about that liberal voters and your feel good anti-gun legislation! [/rant off] Conclusion, I am there, you are not, HRT is not, the police are not.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:26:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Hell, we can't even bad mouth our enemies on this site.



If people would be more civil instead of the "kill all the Muslims" posts you see, there would not be a problem.



Thats not what I was referring to. I would never advocate killing "ALL" of anything unless "ALL" were guilty.
I meant certain terms like "raghead" or "camel jockey" or other similar referrences. I can call them pig fuckers, islamic cockroaches or various other "insensetive" things though and thats ok.
Go figure.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 1:15:53 PM EST
I can't believe no one has responded to my post.... I was ready for a heated debate
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 1:20:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Currahee:
I can't believe no one has responded to my post.... I was ready for a heated debate




Were you looking for a

"Screw you pussy - I'm running in there with my SKS and a spike bayonet and you're not gonna stop me" response


or more like a

"Hey - that guy makes a lot of sense" response




I'm leaning more towards the latter.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 1:51:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Currahee:
I can't believe no one has responded to my post.... I was ready for a heated debate




Were you looking for a

"Screw you pussy - I'm running in there with my SKS and a spike bayonet and you're not gonna stop me" response


or more like a

"Hey - that guy makes a lot of sense" response

I'm leaning more towards the latter.



He did get one of the I'm going to raise hell at the perimeter and shoot cops and try to run in response. Yeah that made a lot of sense shoot or try to shoot the good guys and then try to get in with both the bad guys and good guys pissed at you. And then maybe start the massacre. Yeah that was a brillian idea. Well "thought" out.

Realistically a heavy well thought out and rehearsed group assault will not be stopped. And unless we get good intel (Of course we don't want anything like a Patriot Act to help there do we?) and are willing and able to pre-emptively take action, it will be a reation scenario. And if they are in fact a Moslem fundamentalist willing to die for the cause, what do you REALISTICALLY think the outcome would be?

Armed and competent teachers might be able to keep the things stirred up enough so that bad guys couldn't establish themselves until hopefully the first responders can start aadding to the mix. But how many schools have anything like teachers competent with firearms and or an administrator with the balls to unlock the safe?

But lets be realistic (why start now?) in the boonies (defined as out side a mega-major metropolitan area) any kind of swat team is going to take at least an hour (probably several) to arrive, assess the situation and try to get political approval for actions. Yes we are beholden to the leaders we elect, not to the rabid arfcommer around the corner.

Even in a Los Angeles or NYC a swat response will take at least a half hour at best. Yeah the first officers may get there in minutes but having them rush right in won't do anybody any good. And the idea that you and your AR or precision rifle will do anything but cause hostages to be killed to stop you is ludicrous.What are you going to do if you show up. The bgs have already told you that if anybody messes with them they will kill 10 kids. You try to browbeat your way past the cops that already have this knowledge . Eliminate a possible situation igniter or let the idiot get a bunch of people get killed. HMMM, guess who I'ld dump right now? What if I'm a concerned parent and I see some whacko with a gun trying to or fighting with the police, and it is clear to us that this whacko will get some kids killed... I'ld dump him and the Penal Code (Sec. 197) in my state says I can. Or it would take the DA and a jury to determine that, but he isn't going to get my kid killed if I can help it.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:03:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:09:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:13:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 2:16:27 PM EST by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Currahee:
I have some special prospective on this...this is a long post I felt seriously enough about it to actually write it in a WP so please read it through.

#1 Most schools (all I imagine) now have a "red alert drill" program, same as tornado/fire drills. The objective is to lock the doors and hide away from windows. This is, one hundred percent, the best thing to do in the situations that will [most likely] occur.

That didn't work at Columbine nor the school in Russia.

#2 If you disagree with me then I would like you to please outline your training and experience moving hundreds of kids in an organized and safe manner.

I take it you are a teacher. That does not really make you any more qualified in this manner than anyone else, as you smugly imply

#3 The locked doors have proven to be a deterrent to deranged shooters in the past. Remember, school doors are a good bit more secure than household or many commercial doors. Also remember that the most likely occurrence is a single deranged nut-job with a civilian rifle/shotgun/pistol.

Maybe the most likely is a single nut, but what happened there could happen here. They would just blow down the doors. Even the punks at Columbine had explosives.

#4 Large groups of children moving around present an excellent target to said deranged nut-job, for shooting or hostage taking.

What, kids all packed into one room don't make excellent targets? They had the kids for three days at the school in Russia before anyone tried to make a break. I guess you think they should still be there "negotiating" while little girls were being raped.

#5 If the situation becomes such that E&E is possible or necessary the kids will be in smaller groups (class size) led by an adult they know and trust. This is more important in elementary/middle grades. (I teach high school)

See all of the above.

#6 If you, a parent, tries to sneak in trying to rescue your child you could possibly succeed against a single deranged assailant. In the situation in Russia you would have been killed, and possibly taken more of the kids with you. In most USA situations there will (hopefully soon) be snipers waiting to cap the deranged assailant, if you are walking around looking for your child, through a scope you will look exactly like a deranged nut-job.

Well, according to your first point, the single nut job is most likely. Make up your mind. Who said anything about "walking around".

If the cops are acting like they did at Columbine, action by the parents would be better than what they were doing.

Besides, apparently quite a few of the terrorists were killed or captured by armed civilians, so that blows your point.


#7 You do not have a sense or understanding of the willingness and desire of most teachers towards protecting their students. If I see someone in the school, armed, I will do whatever I can to KILL YOU, I will not recognize you as a concerned parent I will perceive you as the assailant. I will be armed with an oyster knife (more on teachers carrying later). If you have a gun you will probably win, but there are plenty of ambush sites in my hallway and room. My personal expectation is to lose but hopefully disarm/distract you and allow the kids to escape or react. I think many teachers would, in the situation, react the same way.

Well, given that last statement, your entire point is moot. You would automatically assume that the armed parent would be the assailant? Pretty dumb. How do you know it's not a plainclothes cop? You would be acting without really assessing anything.

You say you would distract so the kids could make an escape, but earlier on you said that was a bad idea. Again, make up your mind.


On school hostage situations in general: This is a freaking evil vicious nightmare. The perpetrators, whether a single kid upset over getting an F or an organized terrorist organization, should be pursued and destroyed at any expense. By their very nature schools are BAD places to enter in to CQB situations. CQB situations are made worse by the multiple hostage possibilities.

Agree on the destroying thing, I agree. The second part sounds like you think that they should do nothing and negotiate with those who have no intention of negotiating and don't want to do so.

On teachers carrying: Let me simply relate a true story. In Pearl Mississippi a school administrator disarmed a student who had killed two fellow students. He had to run a half mile (or so) to recover his gun from his truck. The man had always kept a gun in his truck, even after federal law made it illegal to have a gun within 1000 yards of a school, he didn’t break the law (until the gun was needed.) If it was not for this law those two students might be alive. [rant on] Think about that liberal voters and your feel good anti-gun legislation! [/rant off] Conclusion, I am there, you are not, HRT is not, the police are not.



My answers are in red. I do agree that teachers should be armed.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:20:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
If people would be more civil instead of the "kill all the Muslims" posts you see, there would not be a problem.

by all means, old chap!

let's be more 'civilized' towards our barbarian enemies!

carry on!



Yeah, campy, haven't we heard that "being more civil" bit from Kerry?
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 2:31:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 4:41:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jm03:


God Forbid it would happen here.Thats why we need to kill them on the other side of the oceans!




I'd venture to say that there are already quite of few of them here already.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 4:53:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 4:55:38 PM EST by Oslow]
So, if there are terrorists in the school and I go in to save my grandson I should look out for teachers with oyster knives.

OK information filed.

That doesn't change anything except that now I have to shoot a teacher.



Actually, I'll try not to shoot you because I appreciate your efforts, but get a grip.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 5:16:18 PM EST
It would be a slaughter, similiar to what happened in Russia.

The only thing that would make it 'less bad' is if some teachers and students simply ignored the no-gun edicts and were armed anyway.

The myopic "lockdown" response of many posters here is a fallout of the "one-size-fits all" and "zero tolerance" mindset that has permeated American thinking (especially in what passes as our education system).

There is no easy solution. Armed and paid security would be too expensive and is simply not practical.

A police officer stationed out front would simply be an easy target for the terrorists.

The thing would be best would be to arm teachers, and yes, even some students with firearms. There are many 15 and 16 year olds that are capable of responsibly using firearms. And when you are talking 26 armed terrorists, you will need all the assistance you can get. (BTW, the "lock them in the safe" idea is BS.) They need to be carried *on person*.

Something else that would help is to form parternships with local gun owners. Allow recreational target shooters to use the shop room in the school to clean/maintain/modify their weapons. Encourage hunters to bring their rifles and shotguns to school for 'show and tell'. Ask retirees to bring their guns to school (along with their years of experience and wisdom). Some schools could even set up ranges in the basement or outdoors.

Once implemented this would serve as a significant deterrent to terrorists. They would not be able to take the school without taking serious casualties, thus allowing more students to escape, and saving more lives.

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 5:16:25 PM EST
The answer is: We don't know. Who can think of every tactical situation? Who can think of all the possibilities? The Russians couldn't have even used their gas on them; the terrorists knocked out windows to prevent it.

Nobody wins in this (a terrorist school takeover) situation. Nobody.
Link Posted: 9/6/2004 5:54:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/6/2004 6:48:35 PM EST by Currahee]
This is what I expected...

ETA my answers in blue


Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Currahee:
I have some special prospective on this...this is a long post I felt seriously enough about it to actually write it in a WP so please read it through.

#1 Most schools (all I imagine) now have a "red alert drill" program, same as tornado/fire drills. The objective is to lock the doors and hide away from windows. This is, one hundred percent, the best thing to do in the situations that will [most likely] occur.

That didn't work at Columbine nor the school in Russia.

These things are a result of Columbine, It would have helped in Columbine, large groups of kids that did hide behinds locked doors lived. it would probably not have worked in RUssia, I have no idea how Russian schools handle it.

#2 If you disagree with me then I would like you to please outline your training and experience moving hundreds of kids in an organized and safe manner.

I take it you are a teacher. That does not really make you any more qualified in this manner than anyone else, as you smugly imply

I have been to training regarding this and practice it several times a year..with a real 1200 strong student body, so I would dissagree

#3 The locked doors have proven to be a deterrent to deranged shooters in the past. Remember, school doors are a good bit more secure than household or many commercial doors. Also remember that the most likely occurrence is a single deranged nut-job with a civilian rifle/shotgun/pistol.

Maybe the most likely is a single nut, but what happened there could happen here. They would just blow down the doors. Even the punks at Columbine had explosives.

#4 Large groups of children moving around present an excellent target to said deranged nut-job, for shooting or hostage taking.

What, kids all packed into one room don't make excellent targets? They had the kids for three days at the school in Russia before anyone tried to make a break. I guess you think they should still be there "negotiating" while little girls were being raped.

No kids locked in rooms behind concrete walls with very few windows do not make excelent targets.

#5 If the situation becomes such that E&E is possible or necessary the kids will be in smaller groups (class size) led by an adult they know and trust. This is more important in elementary/middle grades. (I teach high school)

See all of the above.

#6 If you, a parent, tries to sneak in trying to rescue your child you could possibly succeed against a single deranged assailant. In the situation in Russia you would have been killed, and possibly taken more of the kids with you. In most USA situations there will (hopefully soon) be snipers waiting to cap the deranged assailant, if you are walking around looking for your child, through a scope you will look exactly like a deranged nut-job.

Well, according to your first point, the single nut job is most likely. Make up your mind. Who said anything about "walking around".

It is the most likely event, as all but one US event has shown. Any plan has to adress all posibilities. What are you going to do, crawl around? Dirive an ATV down the halls?

If the cops are acting like they did at Columbine, action by the parents would be better than what they were doing.

Sorry, supposition provide some reasoned argument

Besides, apparently quite a few of the terrorists were killed or captured by armed civilians, so that blows your point.

Maybe, was it after they left? what's the story? do you have a full AAR?

#7 You do not have a sense or understanding of the willingness and desire of most teachers towards protecting their students. If I see someone in the school, armed, I will do whatever I can to KILL YOU, I will not recognize you as a concerned parent I will perceive you as the assailant. I will be armed with an oyster knife (more on teachers carrying later). If you have a gun you will probably win, but there are plenty of ambush sites in my hallway and room. My personal expectation is to lose but hopefully disarm/distract you and allow the kids to escape or react. I think many teachers would, in the situation, react the same way.

Well, given that last statement, your entire point is moot. You would automatically assume that the armed parent would be the assailant? Pretty dumb. How do you know it's not a plainclothes cop? You would be acting without really assessing anything.

How is the point moot? Teachers will react in the best interest of their students saftey means what to you? Also, plainclothes cops don't storm buildings, we have allready worked through this scenario with the local PD

You say you would distract so the kids could make an escape, but earlier on you said that was a bad idea. Again, make up your mind.

Yes, if the assailant was in the room then an escape would become necesary. Before I had allready said that an escape might become possible or neccesary and that escape should be lead by a responsble adult (especially true in lower grades)

On school hostage situations in general: This is a freaking evil vicious nightmare. The perpetrators, whether a single kid upset over getting an F or an organized terrorist organization, should be pursued and destroyed at any expense. By their very nature schools are BAD places to enter in to CQB situations. CQB situations are made worse by the multiple hostage possibilities.

Agree on the destroying thing, I agree. The second part sounds like you think that they should do nothing and negotiate with those who have no intention of negotiating and don't want to do so.

I think a situation should be assesed before anything past the "red alert" is done, there are so many variables here that there is no possibility of a perfect pre-plan. From your entire post it would seem that you think that any possible event at a school is going to involve a team of well trained radical suicidal islamic terrorists. This is historically not the case. For the single (or double) deranged nutjob (probably students or ex students) a well placed shot to the medula is the best thing. For the Russian scenario negotiations are a good start, if only to allow the HRT team time to get in position. You also don't know what negotiations will do. An armed teacher in the former scenario could possibly end it before the police even know. In the former, the armed teacher would perhaps get killed, but perhaps whitle down the numbers saving lives when the storming takes place.

On teachers carrying: Let me simply relate a true story. In Pearl Mississippi a school administrator disarmed a student who had killed two fellow students. He had to run a half mile (or so) to recover his gun from his truck. The man had always kept a gun in his truck, even after federal law made it illegal to have a gun within 1000 yards of a school, he didn’t break the law (until the gun was needed.) If it was not for this law those two students might be alive. [rant on] Think about that liberal voters and your feel good anti-gun legislation! [/rant off] Conclusion, I am there, you are not, HRT is not, the police are not.



My answers are in red. I do agree that teachers should be armed.

I only think teachers that are able to pass some qualification should be armed. I practice quite a bit in the (hopefully remote) likelyhood that I will ever have to defend my family with arms. I would like some assurance that any other person I trust to defend them has done the same

Link Posted: 9/6/2004 6:28:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Oslow:
So, if there are terrorists in the school and I go in to save my grandson I should look out for teachers with oyster knives.

To put it bluntly yes, but actually you should trust in the situation and a well thought out rehearsed/plan. Do you know where your grandchild is during each period of the day? Do you know what time the periods change? Can you find your way around the school without the lights on? What happens when you encounter another armed parent you don't recognize? You hesitate, yell out "I'm a parent" uh oh your dead now. What are you going to do at the two or more locked saftey doors you encounter before entering a classroom? Do you have breaching explosives? Gonna shoot it? How safe is that? You've lost the only advantage you have now (Surprise) if you are outnumbered. If you find your grandchild what do you do? lead the whole class out (7 year olds?) or just your grand child? Are you gonna leave the rest? How are you going to give these kids direction while being prepaired to engage terrorists? Or are you just gonna hide with them?

OK information filed.

I think you need to conscider a lot of other things and file it.

That doesn't change anything except that now I have to shoot a teacher.

There are several things playing against you here (and you don't even know about them), unless there are two of you, well rehearsed in building clearing I give myself 50% with the knife. I am willing to to bet my life in protection of your child on those odds. I actually worked all these scenarios through in my mind after Columbine.

Most teachers (that are physically able) would have something other than an oyster knife, chair leg baseball bat etc... I have an oyster knife as a result of what I teach.


Actually, I'll try not to shoot you because I appreciate your efforts, but get a grip.



I don't think I'm the one that needs to get a grip, there is a reason that the police don't let officers get invovled when their relatives are at stake. Your objectivity is clearly gone here (mine would be too but I have a plan in place and as I stated and is obvious I am there already)

As many of the posters have stated. The Russian scenario would catch us seemingly unprepared and it would probably be a blood bath. But the plan in place at most schools allready has the chance of saving the most lives. If you are conserned about this make sure the school district has a plan, and that is rehearsed. When was the last time any parent here was at a school board meeting to even find out?
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