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Posted: 7/24/2013 5:28:22 PM EST
First before I post my question I would like to thank all the regular guys on here for sharing your valuable info on this forum. I don't post much because I never feel like I have much to contribute, but I have learned a lot from reading hundreds of threads on here.

Ok so a little background. I'm "just starting out" managing my own business, just married, and finished my first ar15 build and got my chl and m&p shield within the last 2 years. A little tight on money so I know once I save up another $1000 for my "defense spending" I will need to make a good choice.

I would love to have another ar15, or maybe save a little more for an ar10. On the other hand I could use the money for a carbine class. As of right now I go to the range once every 2 weeks, so I could definitely use the training.

So carbine class now and new rifle in a couple more years? or get the rifle now and just continue range trips until I can afford a class in a year or so?

Current rifle: I took a lot of advice on here to build her. Bcm 14.5 pinned upper, replaced front sight with bcm low pro gas block, troy 13" rail with sight, aimpoint t-1, bcm comp, bcg, grip. spikes lower, Daniel defense lower parts kit. Didn't want to go "cheap" for my first build. Not pictured is a tlr-1 for the rail section in the front. Everything was "pre-panic". Including all the ammo, but I am slowly running low so will have to stock up soon.
http://imageshack.us/a/img189/8325/6zhy.jpg

Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:30:08 PM EST
Training and ammo trump equipment redundancy.

Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:31:40 PM EST
Spend the money on new not-red carpet.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:35:57 PM EST
Training.

You own a gun. Now improve what YOU can do.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:36:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 74novaman:
Training and ammo trump equipment redundancy.

View Quote



+1
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:36:43 PM EST
I will definitely keep buying ammo, I think deep down I should buy the training course, but it doesn't help checking out all the pic threads on this website .
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:38:11 PM EST
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Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
I will definitely keep buying ammo, I think deep down I should buy the training course, but it doesn't help checking out all the pic threads on this website .
View Quote


Playing "keeping up with the joneses" on this site will get retard expensive, fast. Some of these guys have phenomenal collections.

Any specific reason you're choosing a carbine course instead of a handgun class? Have you had any other training beyond your CHL class?
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:38:56 PM EST
What do you want to do with the firearm?
Plink at the range? Get another rifle.
Defend good against evil? Training.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:42:14 PM EST
The best firearms related money I've ever spent has been tuition. Want to be good at tennis? Get a good coach, not a great racket collection.

Training.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:45:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
What do you want to do with the firearm?
Plink at the range? Get another rifle.
Defend good against evil? Training.
View Quote


My rifle is definitely my defend good against evil, it's my home defense gun. I should enroll in a handgun class too, I guess since I have been shooting pistols since I was 12, vs 21 for rifles, I am more interested in a carbine class. But I do carry and only have range trips and no classes for the pistol. Ahhh choices...
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:51:19 PM EST
I had a $7k rifle before I took the time and money to get some formal training. Looking back, I wish I would have gotten a $1k rifle and spend $6k training.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 5:52:05 PM EST
Personally, I've prioritized handgun training over rifle/carbine. I believe that as a civilian with a CHL, it's more likely that I'll have a handgun than a rifle should I ever need to use a firearm in such a situation.
Of course, YMMV.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:01:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mechanical:
Personally, I've prioritized handgun training over rifle/carbine. I believe that as a civilian with a CHL, it's more likely that I'll have a handgun than a rifle should I ever need to use a firearm in such a situation.
Of course, YMMV.
View Quote

You're right, gotta re-think where my funds go
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:10:19 PM EST
I would do few classes before you get another AR. if you have the ammo to spare that is. I would want to have at least 1K of ammo left over after the class if you just have enough to do the class then I would wait until you have more ammo. You don't want to shot more than you can replace. but that's just me
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:11:43 PM EST
Where in Texas are you, OP?
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:16:59 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 74novaman:
Training and ammo trump equipment redundancy.
View Quote


But.... Two is one and one is none. Isn't that what everyone on Arfcom says?
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:17:05 PM EST
Hold off from training for a little while until you're proficient with both handgun and rifle.

Taking a class with little or no experience might lead to info overload.

Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:19:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 74novaman:
Where in Texas are you, OP?
View Quote

San Antonio, found a couple of options nearby for around $400 for a 2 day course. Any recommendations else where?
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:33:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/24/2013 6:34:47 PM EST by RockHard13F]
What do you suppose happens when a group of well trained, motivated, even if only moderately disciplined westerners with vastly inferior weapons go up against a force multiples their size that has much better weapons, but is poorly trained and has poor discipline?


The well trained force wins- hands down. An example would be the Israeli's circa 1967 versus Arabs ten times their number.

A closer to home example might be the Marine Corps. Do you think we win because of having all the latest and greatest? Not at all- though it helps. Training and mindset are essential components to surviving and winning in combat. You are much better off having a few weapons you are intimately familiar with than several you are not appropriately trained on, and remember- training is a perishable skill that requires maintenance.

And yes, as a civilian you probably would be better off, at least initially, focusing on handgun.


ETA IF you do decide on a training class, ensure you start at a level appropriate to your skillset. Or, as a poster above said, you might just get overloaded.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:37:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By SabBumNim:

You're right, gotta re-think where my funds go
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
Originally Posted By mechanical:
Personally, I've prioritized handgun training over rifle/carbine. I believe that as a civilian with a CHL, it's more likely that I'll have a handgun than a rifle should I ever need to use a firearm in such a situation.
Of course, YMMV.

You're right, gotta re-think where my funds go


Glock M18?



Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:40:34 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RockHard13F:


ETA IF you do decide on a training class, ensure you start at a level appropriate to your skillset. Or, as a poster above said, you might just get overloaded.
View Quote



+1.

I've trained a lot, with various instructors. I feel like I'm pretty good at what I do, but it never fails that I get over loaded at some point in the class. Not in such a way that it makes the training less effective or whatever, but I feel it when it happens. Stress level goes up. IMO, stress when training is a good thing. However! Not when you're just starting out. Start out with some basic hand gun classes. You might think you're a good shooter since you've been shooting since you were 12. You still have a lot to learn.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:40:50 PM EST
Ok thanks for the input, I will be looking into a pistol class, and save for a carbine class at a later time. I think the one thought that kept nagging me about buying another rifle (other then wanting a new shiny toy) was the "two is one, one is none" thing. I have 2 pistols (forgot to mention my m&p 45 full size) but not two rifles. But after hearing you guys out I see training is more important.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:45:18 PM EST
I hear ya, I'm only 25 years old so I know I still have a lot to learn. Most places around here won't let me take a more advanced course without taking their beginner course anyway. I wish getting my chl this past month didn't cost so much, I probably could have done a class already. But laws are laws I guess...
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:47:50 PM EST
Someone once said something to the effect of...

Beware the man with only one gun, he probably knows how to use it.



If you aren't "combat effective" with one gun, two guns will not improve the situation.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:47:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
I hear ya, I'm only 25 years old so I know I still have a lot to learn. Most places around here won't let me take a more advanced course without taking their beginner course anyway. I wish getting my chl this past month didn't cost so much, I probably could have done a class already. But laws are laws I guess...
View Quote



There's a reason for that.

Probably more than they care to admit, instructors get A LOT of guns pointed at them. They want you to take a basic course first so they can see you're not a complete fool before they up the stress levels.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:50:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/24/2013 6:51:13 PM EST by 325moutguru]
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Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:



There's a reason for that.

Probably more than they care to admit, instructors get A LOT of guns pointed at them. They want you to take a basic course first so they can see you're not a complete fool before they up the stress levels.
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Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
I hear ya, I'm only 25 years old so I know I still have a lot to learn. Most places around here won't let me take a more advanced course without taking their beginner course anyway. I wish getting my chl this past month didn't cost so much, I probably could have done a class already. But laws are laws I guess...



There's a reason for that.

Probably more than they care to admit, instructors get A LOT of guns pointed at them. They want you to take a basic course first so they can see you're not a complete fool before they up the stress levels.
Not only this but not all instructors teach the same classes.
Just because you did a level I course with Instructor A, doesn't mean that you are prepared to take level II taught by Instructor B.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 6:51:24 PM EST
pic of my pistols, carrying the shield right now since it's so hot. Hopefully in the cooler months I can carry the 45.
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4115/3ip8.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 7:03:24 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:



There's a reason for that.

Probably more than they care to admit, instructors get A LOT of guns pointed at them. They want you to take a basic course first so they can see you're not a complete fool before they up the stress levels.
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Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
I hear ya, I'm only 25 years old so I know I still have a lot to learn. Most places around here won't let me take a more advanced course without taking their beginner course anyway. I wish getting my chl this past month didn't cost so much, I probably could have done a class already. But laws are laws I guess...



There's a reason for that.

Probably more than they care to admit, instructors get A LOT of guns pointed at them. They want you to take a basic course first so they can see you're not a complete fool before they up the stress levels.


Yeah, for sure.

Too bad you're in San Antonio, OP. I'm not High Speed or Low Drag, and I work mainly with folks like you on some good basic fundamentals and some techniques and drills to improve their skills so they're prepared to go take some classes from the big guys if they want to (though honestly most folks aren't interested in training at that level and stop after me. Not because I'm that awesome, just because a lot of gun owners aren't willing to spend the money/time to train with the Haleys/Costas/etc of the world.) . Because I'm not a super badass, my rates are well below that $400 you mentioned earlier, but gas alone would eat up what I'd charge you for me to get all the way down there and back.

I don't know if there's anyone doing something similar in the SA area or I"d point you their way.



Link Posted: 7/24/2013 7:04:45 PM EST
San Antonio/Helotes resident here.

Been doing IDPA handgun shooting since October 2008 and carbine shoots since January 2010.

Also have a YHM .308 Titanium can.

PM/IM me if you have any questions.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 7:08:08 PM EST
Are there any shooting matches in your area? IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge or just local club matches? Give some of those a try to get used to your equipment and get trigger time in a stress enviroment.
Classes are very benificial IF you can take one that is taught by someone who is trained and knows what they are doing and talking about. There are a lot of folks hanging out their shingles and "teaching" classes that have no business owning a firearm. Start slow and build your foundation correctly and the ability will follow.
Link Posted: 7/24/2013 7:13:32 PM EST
Find a local 3 gun, go shoot it a couple of times check out what the other guys have / use and how they move and shoot. It will cost a lot less than training and you will have much more free time to observe what works and what doesn't. And you could always get formal training down the road if You don't feel like you are getting anything out of it.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:23:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KaiK:
Find a local 3 gun, go shoot it a couple of times check out what the other guys have / use and how they move and shoot. It will cost a lot less than training and you will have much more free time to observe what works and what doesn't. And you could always get formal training down the road if You don't feel like you are getting anything out of it.
View Quote

There is a lot to be said for going to a rifle or pistol match to learn how to shoot a rifle or pistol- though if I were you, (thank G-d I'm not! ) I'd start with Service Pistol or Service Rifle if you aren't solid on the fundamentals.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:31:25 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 74novaman:


Yeah, for sure.

Too bad you're in San Antonio, OP. I'm not High Speed or Low Drag, and I work mainly with folks like you on some good basic fundamentals and some techniques and drills to improve their skills so they're prepared to go take some classes from the big guys if they want to (though honestly most folks aren't interested in training at that level and stop after me. Not because I'm that awesome, just because a lot of gun owners aren't willing to spend the money/time to train with the Haleys/Costas/etc of the world.) . Because I'm not a super badass, my rates are well below that $400 you mentioned earlier, but gas alone would eat up what I'd charge you for me to get all the way down there and back.

I don't know if there's anyone doing something similar in the SA area or I"d point you their way.



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Originally Posted By 74novaman:
Originally Posted By ragedracer1977:
Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
I hear ya, I'm only 25 years old so I know I still have a lot to learn. Most places around here won't let me take a more advanced course without taking their beginner course anyway. I wish getting my chl this past month didn't cost so much, I probably could have done a class already. But laws are laws I guess...



There's a reason for that.

Probably more than they care to admit, instructors get A LOT of guns pointed at them. They want you to take a basic course first so they can see you're not a complete fool before they up the stress levels.


Yeah, for sure.

Too bad you're in San Antonio, OP. I'm not High Speed or Low Drag, and I work mainly with folks like you on some good basic fundamentals and some techniques and drills to improve their skills so they're prepared to go take some classes from the big guys if they want to (though honestly most folks aren't interested in training at that level and stop after me. Not because I'm that awesome, just because a lot of gun owners aren't willing to spend the money/time to train with the Haleys/Costas/etc of the world.) . Because I'm not a super badass, my rates are well below that $400 you mentioned earlier, but gas alone would eat up what I'd charge you for me to get all the way down there and back.

I don't know if there's anyone doing something similar in the SA area or I"d point you their way.






where are you?
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:32:27 AM EST
Go to a carbine class. Learn how to run one rifle well before you invest in 2.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:34:33 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DonKey153:


where are you?
View Quote


North of Austin on I-35.

Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:39:05 AM EST
Prices are coming down and availability coming up. I would try to find 1,000 - 2,000 rounds of brass cased .223 for 35-40 cents a round and hit the range often while you're trying to decide. The goal is to keep honing your trigger pull until you're shooting 8" group or better offhand and 3" group or better rested / prone at 100 yds. Not 18" groups.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:41:18 AM EST
Try to maximize your value on training... especially since it's your first class. Try to find something close to home to save on travel expenses. Don't necessarily insist on the super HSLD class/trainer/school... it's your first class, unless the instructor is a total chump, you're going to learn a ton. Don't associate round count with course quality... a good 500 round course is going to do you a lot more good than a lousy 1,000 round one. Try to find a good student/instructor ratio, and someone who has good feedback among former students.
The more of the $1000 you can save on the class, the faster you can buy your second rifle.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:41:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
Ok thanks for the input, I will be looking into a pistol class, and save for a carbine class at a later time. I think the one thought that kept nagging me about buying another rifle (other then wanting a new shiny toy) was the "two is one, one is none" thing. I have 2 pistols (forgot to mention my m&p 45 full size) but not two rifles. But after hearing you guys out I see training is more important.
View Quote


Generally speaking pistol shooting skills transfer to rifles more then the other way around. At least from the perspective of match shooting.

Personally, the best bang for the buck I get is for my Brazilian Jui Jitsu lessons. I haven't taken shooting lessons except some longe range rifle clinics. But I did compete.

Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:45:12 AM EST
Training.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:57:36 AM EST
check out Front Sight for training. Some users on here will talk shit about the place but I thoroughly enjoyed my multiple trips there.

You can get a full lifetime membership (good for any class forever) for $99
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:58:08 AM EST
Training. I made this decision myself very recently and have decided to get training first before more tools. This summer is fun going to courses and shooting at state of the art modern facilities. Shooting steel, moving targets, from vehicles, from seated and unusual positions, shooting and moving are all not only fun, it's all building skills and good experience. I have two more courses scheduled this summer.
After this summer I'm going to get some medical training next. Dark Angel Medical

IMO, pistol training is far more practical. In reality, you're far more likely to use a pistol for self-defense. Plus a carbine course is EXPENSIVE. Your "$1K defense fund" may not cover all the costs associated with a carbine course. For $1K you can get in some pretty serious pistol training though.

I'm not saying to skip rifle training. But some practical defensive pistol skills will likely serve you better in all but total SHTF / TEOTWAKI , IMHO.

Cheers!

-JC

Link Posted: 7/25/2013 12:04:07 PM EST
Training should come first. I bet that after your first class you might change your mind on what your next rifle purchase would be anyway. I know that it changed my ideas on a lot of things.

That said I like the rifle you put together a lot.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 12:34:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 12:40:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SabBumNim:


My rifle is definitely my defend good against evil, it's my home defense gun. I should enroll in a handgun class too, I guess since I have been shooting pistols since I was 12, vs 21 for rifles, I am more interested in a carbine class. But I do carry and only have range trips and no classes for the pistol. Ahhh choices...
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Originally Posted By SabBumNim:
Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
What do you want to do with the firearm?
Plink at the range? Get another rifle.
Defend good against evil? Training.


My rifle is definitely my defend good against evil, it's my home defense gun. I should enroll in a handgun class too, I guess since I have been shooting pistols since I was 12, vs 21 for rifles, I am more interested in a carbine class. But I do carry and only have range trips and no classes for the pistol. Ahhh choices...

I've wanted to do a carbine class, but between the class cost, ammo cost, and travel cost, it's not in my budget.

I'be been watching a bunch of the Kyle Lamb videos and trying to imitate his drills, and doing some of the drills they talk about in the training section... I'm much better than I was, just doing that. (I'm still no good, mind you ) Also just trying to spend more time working out, so I'm not quite so soft from sitting in my office chair at work all the time.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 12:44:12 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mechanical:
Personally, I've prioritized handgun training over rifle/carbine. I believe that as a civilian with a CHL, it's more likely that I'll have a handgun than a rifle should I ever need to use a firearm in such a situation.
Of course, YMMV.
View Quote


Some affordable initial options to a long-term strategy
I second this advice. Another good option you have that won't break the bank is to go to a good competitive action shooting event, that is less race and more practical. Entry fees are usually $20-$50, plus the ammo and travel expenses.

Some of the best training I have had has been in a competitive environment, at night, on a range with no artificial illumination, in the rain. Attend with your wife and you're even better-off. Stages involved shooting from:

* Within and around vehicles in common scenarios you find yourself in (seated as driver, changing a tire, exiting vehicle)

* From barricaded positions

* From a sleeping position in the shoot house, in an actual bed

* From a seated position at a desk



If you connect the dots, the skills you can learn from some good action-shooting competitions will help contribute to the foundation of your self-defense posture. They are not a replacement for formal training, but a dynamic environment where a lot of practical scenarios will get your gears turning as to what to prepare for.

I would also look for a great handgun training course from a reputable instructor that teaches drawing and shooting from retention, to include seated positions. Spend your money on spare mags for your carry/training handgun, so that when you show up to a good course, you won't have to spend time loading mags when you could be shooting.





I would also work out a series of home and outside the home drills with any adolescent or adult that you live with, covering contingencies that involve your family dispersed throughout the house, different methods and locations of entry, verbal judo, light discipline, panic rooms, door stops, less lethal tools, hardened doors/frames, window treatments and armor options...

Family home defense contingencies should include:

* Parent(s)/Alpha upstairs or in separate room from minors/children with vulnerability to common entrance points

* Expedient panic rooms on all floor levels balanced with an evac plan, with commo & weapons accessible to home owners in panic rooms

* Rear door forced entry plan

* Garage man-door forced entry plan

* Front door forced entry plan

* Accessible window forced entry plans (towel and tire iron are common tools of burglars for window entries)

* Withdrawal plans for family presence configurations (internal and external withdrawal)

* Daytime vs. nighttime contingencies (Do you carry adequate illumination tools for inside the home? Can you use interior lighting control to hamper intruders)

* Inventorying of personal valuables and counter-theft measures for those valuables (safes, locks, alarms, multiple copies of inventory lists/serial numbers)

* Family member down drills (what to do if SO or children are killed/seriously injured and unconscious, and what do your family members do if the Alpha is killed/UC?)

* Shoot/No-shoot scenarios

* Withdraw to panic room versus advance to protect an internal perimeter for other family members.

* Coordination with trusted neighbors as your immediate alarm and/or withdrawal options.

* Post-incident response and management of the incident area as it transitions from your control to local LEO's



A comprehensive home protection strategy starts with making your home a castle that deters burglars and highly-motivated drug addicts from considering your home, versus the neighbors'. Some of the biggest contributing factors to your home being selected is:

* Awareness of what valuables you have in your home by people who have seen them, or become aware of them by other means

* Your family daily routine/profile, combined with an affluent neighborhood that is in close proximity to Section 8 or similar types of housing

* Access to your home though weak entry points, with plenty of concealment, and good approach & escape routes

* Associations of your neighbors and family members. Adolescent teens are often a family's biggest sources of dirtbags finding out what you have, especially when you are away at work, and they are ditching school. Teens have very under-developed senses for bad characters, which are often overcome by peer pressure.

Master Craftsman in Violence vs. Tools
The more you truly dive into personal, family, and home security, the more you see that firearms are just one small tool in the box. Any of the tools I have mentioned can contribute to a heightened state of protection posture, but tools are useless without a well-trained craftsman. Many criminals will sense something "not right" about you and your place once you become more intimate with violence and its mastery, and will steer clear on instinct alone, which is what I prefer. Even off-leash animals know there's something not in their best interests when in the presence of someone who trains regularly at dishing out violence more calculated and vicious than their own capacity to do the same.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 12:51:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/25/2013 1:05:16 PM EST by topgunpilot20]
OP, check out Tiger Valley near Waco for a good handgun course.

Central Texas does get some of the big name instructors a few times a year if you keep your eyes open. I've taken classes from Haley, Costa, and Jason Falla plus missed courses from Vickers, Pat Rogers, and Jeff Gonzales all within driving distance.

ETA: Paul Howe does a good handgun course, but Nacogdoches is a bit of a drive. He's come to San Marcos a few times, but I don't know if he will again.
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