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11/9/2018 9:21:38 PM
Posted: 10/29/2018 7:42:39 PM EST
https://www.news-journalonline.com/news/20181029/volusia-deputy-again-in-trouble-suspended-for-chasing-suspect-in-damaged-car



According to the investigation, on Feb. 18 Stickels caught up to carjacking suspect John McGowen, at South Woodland Boulevard and State Road 15A. After battering his ex-girlfriend, McGowen stole her GMC Envoy sport utility vehicle at 1871 W. New York Ave., deputies said.

(there was a light ramming lol)

Stickels joined the pursuit on Interstate 4 toward Seminole County. Another sergeant, Joel Turney, told investigators he saw Stickels’ patrol vehicle going by at 100 mph on the interstate with its damaged parts dragging on the road, reports said.

Turney radioed Stickels, “Jason your car is coming apart,” investigators said.

After Turney radioed Stickels, a lieutenant ordered Stickels to stop pursuing as another deputy had taken over the chase, documents state.

Stickels did not stop pursuing, telling his lieutenant, “I got a bone to pick with this guy here now so.”

The IA investigation concluded that Stickels, among several violations, failed to follow a direct order, was negligent with the safety of people and property, failed to promptly comply with a lawful order and engaged in prohibited pursuit.

McGowen is out of jail on $76,000 and is awaiting trial on six felony charges including carjacking, aggravated battery on a law enforcement officer with a deadly weapon and false imprisonment.
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Almost lost a stripe, 120 hours unpaid time off, and thiiiiis close to being looking for a new home.

Should have just let the other officer handle it solo while he started doing all the paperwork on the vehicle lol #fuckthat
Link Posted: 10/29/2018 7:54:41 PM EST
Following orders is fundamental stuff. Enthusiasm is awesome. Stupidity is not. Sounds like the officer has a little of both.

There is a fine line between them. Gotta figure out where that line is.
Link Posted: 10/29/2018 8:08:07 PM EST
Yeah, that disobeying orders is what hung him.

Supe says stop the pursuit, you fucking stop the pursuit.
Link Posted: 10/29/2018 9:01:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2018 9:08:40 PM EST by SC11B]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Following orders is fundamental stuff. Enthusiasm is awesome. Stupidity is not. Sounds like the officer has a little of both.

There is a fine line between them. Gotta figure out where that line is.
View Quote
"Orders" from police administrators and supervisors have a time and place.

In the middle of a use of force, pursuit, or other tense, rapidly evolving situation, is not one of them.

This isn't the military. If you can't trust your cops to make the right decisions and follow their training, policy, and case law you should find new cops. Telling people what to do via a radio, from a position of safety, when THEY are the person in the middle of a life or death scenario is fucking stupid and a big reason why police administrators are universally despised by the real police.

When the real cops are fighting, chasing, shooting, or doing other stuff, sergeants and above need to stay the FUCK off the radio unless they have concise and relevant information to the situation at hand that needs immediate broadcast. No one in the field cares what they have to say, and even if they do manage to hear the supervisory blather amidst the chaos they probably are going to disobey it if it is fucking retarded like "Stop chasing that violent felony suspect hurrrrrr." Even worse is if someone with relevant actual relevant emergency information like, say, a direction of travel or a request for medical aid gets cut off the radio channel by some retarded supervisor trying to get a status update or call off a chase. The intermittent emergency tones mean STFU unless you are the guys the tones were put out for.

ETA: Some of the more lobotomized sergeants here have started asking the primary in a foot pursuit what the reason for the chase is. While he is sprinting after the crook and trying to update streets and directions. People that wear three stripes or gold bars should by and large stay the fuck in their office. We will call you when your input is needed.

The best fucking sergeant I have ever worked for hears a hot call, fight, whatever, and just starts driving to it to do sergeant stuff once the line officers have handled it. You only hear her on the radio when someone requests a sergeant to the scene and she responds "I'm rolling up to you in 30 seconds."
Link Posted: 10/29/2018 9:27:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2018 9:29:22 PM EST by high_order1]
Keep in mind the guy is a Sergeant, and a 14 year veteran, and still on the road. I trust his judgment on the face of it.

Even if there were adequate coverage, a supervisor from my day's not going to sit with his thumb up his ass while his shift goes and handles business. What if there were a shootout, or hostage deal, meanwhile, you're sitting there quietly filling out all the forms?

Especially if all it was was a bumper.
Link Posted: 10/29/2018 10:22:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SC11B:
"Orders" from police administrators and supervisors have a time and place.

In the middle of a use of force, pursuit, or other tense, rapidly evolving situation, is not one of them.

This isn't the military. If you can't trust your cops to make the right decisions and follow their training, policy, and case law you should find new cops. Telling people what to do via a radio, from a position of safety, when THEY are the person in the middle of a life or death scenario is fucking stupid and a big reason why police administrators are universally despised by the real police.

When the real cops are fighting, chasing, shooting, or doing other stuff, sergeants and above need to stay the FUCK off the radio unless they have concise and relevant information to the situation at hand that needs immediate broadcast. No one in the field cares what they have to say, and even if they do manage to hear the supervisory blather amidst the chaos they probably are going to disobey it if it is fucking retarded like "Stop chasing that violent felony suspect hurrrrrr." Even worse is if someone with relevant actual relevant emergency information like, say, a direction of travel or a request for medical aid gets cut off the radio channel by some retarded supervisor trying to get a status update or call off a chase. The intermittent emergency tones mean STFU unless you are the guys the tones were put out for.

ETA: Some of the more lobotomized sergeants here have started asking the primary in a foot pursuit what the reason for the chase is. While he is sprinting after the crook and trying to update streets and directions. People that wear three stripes or gold bars should by and large stay the fuck in their office. We will call you when your input is needed.

The best fucking sergeant I have ever worked for hears a hot call, fight, whatever, and just starts driving to it to do sergeant stuff once the line officers have handled it. You only hear her on the radio when someone requests a sergeant to the scene and she responds "I'm rolling up to you in 30 seconds."
View Quote
If you want to be a loose cannon, you'll be looking for a job before long. Yes there are bad supervisors just like there are bad cops. I have my officers backs and take care of them. I refuse to micro manage them but do give them solid guidance. Probably why I get calls from officers who I don't supervise looking for advise. That's also why I have a long list who want to work for me next shift bid. That said, if I had an officer defy an order, I guarantee that officer will be facing discipline. I rarely write officers up so when I do, they earned it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 1:27:37 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

If you want to be a loose cannon, you'll be looking for a job before long. Yes there are bad supervisors just like there are bad cops. I have my officers backs and take care of them. I refuse to micro manage them but do give them solid guidance. Probably why I get calls from officers who I don't supervise looking for advise. That's also why I have a long list who want to work for me next shift bid. That said, if I had an officer defy an order, I guarantee that officer will be facing discipline. I rarely write officers up so when I do, they earned it.
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I know how to keep my job and play the game. Doesn't change the fact that anyone trying to make decisions about a tactical scenario like a chase/use of force/barricaded person when that person isn't even on scene is doing everyone a disservice. Being in a position of authority does not mean you have to interject yourself via radio into something that someone else is the primary on.

FYI my department has a highly restrictive chase policy and we don't even think about beginning a vehicle pursuit for anything other than a violent felony crime, and the vast majority of those (in policy and reasonable)pursuits are terminated immediately from the precinct as soon as a sergeant or lieutenant wakes up and realizes a pursuit is in progress, usually with multiple supervisors stepping all over each other in a mad dash to terminate the pursuit. A pursuit that actually happens because it was for an egregious crime like a multiple homicide or a rare old school watch commander had balls to keep it going will end up with everyone involved being investigated at IA anyway even if it was in policy.

It's not a coincidence that we are hemorrhaging officers faster than 1960s Detroit lost auto workers, have the highest crime rate in the region, actually have criminals moving here on purpose to commit crimes because they know they will get away with them, and what officers are left have been successfully trained to slowly respond and write a report to keep their personal liability to a minimum. Hilariously, our holdup and armed robbery stats actually dropped due to the pursuit policy because the crooks figured out that if they just did stuff like steal a whole ATM and run away we just won't chase them because a supervisor will terminate pursuit of a 'property crime.'

That's what administrative micromanaging from the rear gets you. Granted a pursuit termination policy didn't do all that, but every single bit of it stems from people leading from the rear, second guessing the decision making of the line officer, and telling cops not to be cops.

I'm not calling you out or saying you are a bad sergeant, but I am saying a sworn officer had a badge, a gun with real bullets in it, and the statutory power to enforce the law, including chasing someone in a vehicle. He doesn't need to be managed from afar via radio. If he does need to be so micromanaged, it is because administrators hired and retained an incompetent employee.

There are plenty of real police and sheriff's departments around the country that will still chase the fucking wheels off you for running from a stop for a broken tag light. Somehow, none of them have been sued into bankruptcy for lack of sergeants terminating pursuits from afar.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 1:36:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SC11B:

I know how to keep my job and play the game. Doesn't change the fact that anyone trying to make decisions about a tactical scenario like a chase/use of force/barricaded person when that person isn't even on scene is doing everyone a disservice. Being in a position of authority does not mean you have to interject yourself via radio into something that someone else is the primary on.

FYI my department has a highly restrictive chase policy and we don't even think about beginning a vehicle pursuit for anything other than a violent felony crime, and the vast majority of those (in policy and reasonable)pursuits are terminated immediately from the precinct as soon as a sergeant or lieutenant wakes up and realizes a pursuit is in progress, usually with multiple supervisors stepping all over each other in a mad dash to terminate the pursuit. A pursuit that actually happens because it was for an egregious crime like a multiple homicide or a rare old school watch commander had balls to keep it going will end up with everyone involved being investigated at IA anyway even if it was in policy.

It's not a coincidence that we are hemorrhaging officers faster than 1960s Detroit lost auto workers, have the highest crime rate in the region, actually have criminals moving here on purpose to commit crimes because they know they will get away with them, and what officers are left have been successfully trained to slowly respond and write a report to keep their personal liability to a minimum. Hilariously, our holdup and armed robbery stats actually dropped due to the pursuit policy because the crooks figured out that if they just did stuff like steal a whole ATM and run away we just won't chase them because a supervisor will terminate pursuit of a 'property crime.'

That's what administrative micromanaging from the rear gets you. Granted a pursuit termination policy didn't do all that, but every single bit of it stems from people leading from the rear, second guessing the decision making of the line officer, and telling cops not to be cops.

I'm not calling you out or saying you are a bad sergeant, but I am saying a sworn officer had a badge, a gun with real bullets in it, and the statutory power to enforce the law, including chasing someone in a vehicle. He doesn't need to be managed from afar via radio. If he does need to be so micromanaged, it is because administrators hired and retained an incompetent employee.

There are plenty of real police and sheriff's departments around the country that will still chase the fucking wheels off you for running from a stop for a broken tag light. Somehow, none of them have been sued into bankruptcy for lack of sergeants terminating pursuits from afar.
View Quote
That's what your citizens want.

If it's so bad, why keep working there? Go somewhere better.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 5:58:12 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By high_order1:
Almost lost a stripe, 120 hours unpaid time off, and thiiiiis close to being looking for a new home.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By high_order1:
Almost lost a stripe, 120 hours unpaid time off, and thiiiiis close to being looking for a new home.



Originally Posted By FredMan:
Supe says stop the pursuit, you fucking stop the pursuit.
This.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 12:45:03 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

If it's so bad, why keep working there? Go somewhere better.
View Quote
Ah we've reached, "If you don't like it, leave", the classic last ditch argument of police administrators nationwide who can't actually defend the policy or practice in question, but aren't interested in fixing it either, because status quo.

I would much prefer to be a cop in the days before portable radios, when officers were actually trusted to make a damn decision and do their job instead of running everything in real time past management via 800 mghz. I fully expect before I am able to retire from this city I will have a live body cam feed to a Demolition Man style command center while taking real time orders via earpiece from someone with far less street experience than me, but a lot more uniform flair.

FWIW I am pretty damn okay at street police work, an FTO who produces competent probationary cops, not a discipline problem(internet opinions don't reflect my ability to follow stupid rules in real life ), and my supervisors have confidence in my decision making. I could easily promote or become a detective but instead I'm planning on waiting until my pension and retirement funds are where I want them and finding a nice rural county as far away from modern policing as possible and lateraling there to finish out my career, because I am absolutely fucking disgusted by the shadow of what was once police work that dominates most departments.

There were bygone days here when lieutenants showed up to work in civilian clothes and told the sergeants which diner/bar they could find them at if the city caught fire then disappeared, and sergeants conducted roll call, told the cops to hit the fucking bricks and bitched out anyone who called them for an opinion without having a) already handled the incident and b) exhausting the resources of senior officers. Strangely, those days overlap with us being an effective police department. Our "liability reducing" micromanagement has even managed to roughly double the amount of lawsuits we face and the money we pay out
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 3:20:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SC11B:

Ah we've reached, "If you don't like it, leave", the classic last ditch argument of police administrators nationwide who can't actually defend the policy or practice in question, but aren't interested in fixing it either, because status quo.

I would much prefer to be a cop in the days before portable radios, when officers were actually trusted to make a damn decision and do their job instead of running everything in real time past management via 800 mghz. I fully expect before I am able to retire from this city I will have a live body cam feed to a Demolition Man style command center while taking real time orders via earpiece from someone with far less street experience than me, but a lot more uniform flair.

FWIW I am pretty damn okay at street police work, an FTO who produces competent probationary cops, not a discipline problem(internet opinions don't reflect my ability to follow stupid rules in real life ), and my supervisors have confidence in my decision making. I could easily promote or become a detective but instead I'm planning on waiting until my pension and retirement funds are where I want them and finding a nice rural county as far away from modern policing as possible and lateraling there to finish out my career, because I am absolutely fucking disgusted by the shadow of what was once police work that dominates most departments.

There were bygone days here when lieutenants showed up to work in civilian clothes and told the sergeants which diner/bar they could find them at if the city caught fire then disappeared, and sergeants conducted roll call, told the cops to hit the fucking bricks and bitched out anyone who called them for an opinion without having a) already handled the incident and b) exhausting the resources of senior officers. Strangely, those days overlap with us being an effective police department. Our "liability reducing" micromanagement has even managed to roughly double the amount of lawsuits we face and the money we pay out
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So you're just a disgruntled cop who doesn't do anything to move up and fix the issues you currently find frustration in.

Good luck with that. With that attitude it's no wonder your department is as messed up as you say it is.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 3:44:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

So you're just a disgruntled cop who doesn't do anything to move up and fix the issues you currently find frustration in.

Good luck with that. With that attitude it's no wonder your department is as messed up as you say it is.
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Thanks, it's working out great for me. I make over 6 figures and have amazing benefits and my superiors are happiest if I do less police work. No skin off my dick, I don't live here, the only people negatively affected by management are taxpaying residents of the city. I'm happy to do police work, but if managers like you make it a career hazard, I won't. It's not people like me that fucked things up, it is people like you.

You still haven't explained any logic at all behind allowing someone who is not on scene to make tactical decisions in a tense, rapidly evolving incident. Other than the logic of "Ermagahd the LIABILITY!" I don't actually know what liability is because I am a police administrator, not a lawyer, but LIAAABILITTTY!!!!!"
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 3:54:02 PM EST
don't see any correlation in meat eating and inability to follow orders
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 4:10:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jkcoon:
don't see any correlation in meat eating and inability to follow orders
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The type of people who have enough drive to actually chase down and catch fleeing felons are often the type of people likely to ignore a nutless milquetoast whining into they radio for them to stop chasing the fleeing felon.

Just like police dogs. The best ones at catching people are the same ones who give their handlers hell when they're trying to get the dog to stop biting the shitbag.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 6:28:11 PM EST
Nope can't do that.

When the supervisor give you an order, you follow orders.

The fact that he responded that he "had a bone to pick" is 2000% more reason than a phucked up cruiser to pull him off that pursuit
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 7:19:01 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SC11B:

Thanks, it's working out great for me. I make over 6 figures and have amazing benefits and my superiors are happiest if I do less police work. No skin off my dick, I don't live here, the only people negatively affected by management are taxpaying residents of the city. I'm happy to do police work, but if managers like you make it a career hazard, I won't. It's not people like me that fucked things up, it is people like you.

You still haven't explained any logic at all behind allowing someone who is not on scene to make tactical decisions in a tense, rapidly evolving incident. Other than the logic of "Ermagahd the LIABILITY!" I don't actually know what liability is because I am a police administrator, not a lawyer, but LIAAABILITTTY!!!!!"
View Quote
It's probably good you don't do much police work.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 7:31:11 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

It's probably good you don't do much police work.
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Probably do more than your subordinates, since you're there to call off their chases, big sarge.
Link Posted: 10/31/2018 12:08:42 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jkcoon:
don't see any correlation in meat eating and inability to follow orders
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I guess things are more professional now.

All I know is if I was chasing a carjacking suspect, and my SGT pulled over and left me because his bumper cover was dragging... there would be a discussion behind a gas station later on that night. (shrugs) If the LT pulled ALL of us off, that's one thing. But canceling one car... based on a lone radio transmission... (shrugs)
Link Posted: 11/2/2018 12:15:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SC11B:

Probably do more than your subordinates, since you're there to call off their chases, big sarge.
View Quote
Holy shit. I’d ride a beat with you any day.

Link Posted: 11/2/2018 12:55:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SC11B:

I know how to keep my job and play the game. Doesn't change the fact that anyone trying to make decisions about a tactical scenario like a chase/use of force/barricaded person when that person isn't even on scene is doing everyone a disservice. Being in a position of authority does not mean you have to interject yourself via radio into something that someone else is the primary on.

FYI my department has a highly restrictive chase policy and we don't even think about beginning a vehicle pursuit for anything other than a violent felony crime, and the vast majority of those (in policy and reasonable)pursuits are terminated immediately from the precinct as soon as a sergeant or lieutenant wakes up and realizes a pursuit is in progress, usually with multiple supervisors stepping all over each other in a mad dash to terminate the pursuit. A pursuit that actually happens because it was for an egregious crime like a multiple homicide or a rare old school watch commander had balls to keep it going will end up with everyone involved being investigated at IA anyway even if it was in policy.

It's not a coincidence that we are hemorrhaging officers faster than 1960s Detroit lost auto workers, have the highest crime rate in the region, actually have criminals moving here on purpose to commit crimes because they know they will get away with them, and what officers are left have been successfully trained to slowly respond and write a report to keep their personal liability to a minimum. Hilariously, our holdup and armed robbery stats actually dropped due to the pursuit policy because the crooks figured out that if they just did stuff like steal a whole ATM and run away we just won't chase them because a supervisor will terminate pursuit of a 'property crime.'

That's what administrative micromanaging from the rear gets you. Granted a pursuit termination policy didn't do all that, but every single bit of it stems from people leading from the rear, second guessing the decision making of the line officer, and telling cops not to be cops.

I'm not calling you out or saying you are a bad sergeant, but I am saying a sworn officer had a badge, a gun with real bullets in it, and the statutory power to enforce the law, including chasing someone in a vehicle. He doesn't need to be managed from afar via radio. If he does need to be so micromanaged, it is because administrators hired and retained an incompetent employee.

There are plenty of real police and sheriff's departments around the country that will still chase the fucking wheels off you for running from a stop for a broken tag light. Somehow, none of them have been sued into bankruptcy for lack of sergeants terminating pursuits from afar.
View Quote
Just because your supervisors suck ass doesn't mean all of them do. The cop in the OP was told to end the oursuit, with other officers still engaged in the pursuit. They didn't call off the pursuit all together. Kind of different than all of the examples you gave in both your posts.

And for what it's worth, I agree with your sentiment. Armchair quarterbacking on a radio from the rear is a terrible way to do police work. I'm not a cop, but get enough stupid crap from supervisors in my job. My supervisor actually came out and told us this summer that they were going to try and stop micromanaging us. That we were all longtime employees that are professionals and know what's expected, so they were going to try and get out of the way some. We were all shocked that those words even came out of his mouth.
Link Posted: 11/2/2018 12:59:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SC11B:

Thanks, it's working out great for me. I make over 6 figures and have amazing benefits and my superiors are happiest if I do less police work. No skin off my dick, I don't live here, the only people negatively affected by management are taxpaying residents of the city. I'm happy to do police work, but if managers like you make it a career hazard, I won't. It's not people like me that fucked things up, it is people like you.

You still haven't explained any logic at all behind allowing someone who is not on scene to make tactical decisions in a tense, rapidly evolving incident. Other than the logic of "Ermagahd the LIABILITY!" I don't actually know what liability is because I am a police administrator, not a lawyer, but LIAAABILITTTY!!!!!"
View Quote
The OP cop's super saw him go by dragging his car down the road, it would seem he was actually on scene. Still not the same as your arguments, which are good ones.
Link Posted: 11/2/2018 8:02:01 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By youngandfree:

The OP cop's super saw him go by dragging his car down the road, it would seem he was actually on scene. Still not the same as your arguments, which are good ones.
View Quote
no
Guy is a Sergeant. Another Sergeant saw him go by with some vehicle issues, and warned SGT1 about vehicle condition on the pursuit channel.

Mister Nosy Lieutenant overheard this, and immediately cancelled SGT1. What we don't know is what level of awareness the LT had of what the specifics of the pursuit were.

Also, kinda weird to hear a shift boss telling a first line supervisor to stop pursuing. Usually all the grownups are in lockstep, and you don't hear too much from a LT/CPT on a patrol channel.
Link Posted: 11/3/2018 11:29:54 AM EST
Sounds like the Sgt should have taken himself out of the pursuit - suspect was in custody when he arrived on scene. Granted, it’s 20/20 hindsight.

Reading the linked article sounds like the Sgt let his emotions dominate. Possibly more than once.
Link Posted: 11/3/2018 9:57:44 PM EST
With just what's been reported on the chase, I think he deserves at least a suspension. With others taking over the chase he can at least stop long enough to cut the wires holding the bumper on. Then continue if the vehicle was safe to do so.

I say "Good Call" on the LT for trying to rein him in. He was driving an apparently extensively damaged car; presenting a hazard to himself & others. The LT recognized the SGT was to personally involved. His comments would cause me concern given the situation. And they certainly wouldn't play good if something, even if fully justified, happened on the other end.

The SGT's total disregard of the LT's order would likely get him canned here. And if I read correctly the SGT lied during the IA about inspecting the damage. THAT would for sure get you canned.

I hope the county doesn't end up regretting their decision in the form of a negligent retention suit tacked onto whatever else this guy decides to do next time.
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