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Posted: 4/19/2007 6:54:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 7:17:54 AM EDT by roguetrader]
I seen this post and it got me thinking....


Originally Posted By USNDOC:
The officers were trying to get into the building. You can see them running in the cell phone video trying to find an open door. Once a door was found and/or the chains were cut entry was made, but it was too late. It is really hard to cut chains on the inside of a door.

We have fought one of the local highschool principals for years over chaining doors for this very reason. He refused to listen to reason.



1. How would you as a responder get the doors opened in a hurry?

2. How many people /patrol officers carry bolt cutters in there car/truck?

ETA:

3. There are bars for security on the first floor windows ( as is the case in most schools)
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:55:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 6:56:48 AM EDT by macman37]
Bolt cutters.

BlackHawk!!@@®®®™™™!!! has an entire line of entry tools and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

Edit: HOWEVER... They could have been wary at first due to the possibility of booby traps.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:56:17 AM EDT
Slugs to the chain/lock. Which is what I believe VT University/Blackburg PD used to gain entry.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:57:39 AM EDT
Break a window and bipass the doors all together.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:57:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Bolt cutters.

BlackHawk!!@@®®®™™™!!! has an entire line of entry tools and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

Edit: HOWEVER... They could have been wary at first due to the possibility of booby traps.


Should be a mandatory item in every patrol car trunk.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:00:31 AM EDT
depends alot on the buildings and hight of first floor. From the last time i was at tech, most of the buildings are stone with the frist floor windows quite a bit off the ground. Not much glass by doors to break in through etc
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:01:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 7:02:59 AM EDT by TheTracker]

Originally Posted By M4MikelA3:
Break a window and bipass the doors all together.


some windows , even ground floor can be high. and I have seen some thick as hell
glass in some office buildings.

and you have a problem with being cut crawling through.

Not all officers have kevlar gloves on.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:02:01 AM EDT
If they are in your car and your is more than a hundred yards away, then tools might as well be at the station or at home.

Id vote look for an accessible window, or blow the chain/hinges with breaching rounds/slugs.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:02:53 AM EDT
Lug nut wrench and torque would probably also work if the chain isn't very thick...
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:04:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4MikelA3:
Break a window and bipass the doors all together.


Alot of school door glass has chicken wire between 2 paynes (sp?) of glass. Not as easy as normal glass.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:08:00 AM EDT
The GD crowd seems to think that patrol officers carry everything from wall breaching charges to Halligan tools.

Slugs to the lock/chain/hinges is about the only thing that an officer is going to have available. Windows would be nice, but we don't carry ladders either. Several of our local high schools are notable for not having ANY ground floor windows. Folks in GD suggest ramming the door with your patrol car. I'll happily do that when someone shows me how to drive up two flights of a staircase and to get around the vehicle barricades emplaced after Oklahoma City.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:09:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
Bolt cutters.

BlackHawk!!@@®®®™™™!!! has an entire line of entry tools and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

Edit: HOWEVER... They could have been wary at first due to the possibility of booby traps.


were not the doors chained from the INSIDE ?

boltcutters would not be very effective from the outside.. also someone mentioned the glass on school doors is diffrent ,,

bad situation all the way around.

I was fast to critasize<sp> the cops about waiting ..or what seemed like waiting.,, but how the hell do you get thru a door that chained from the inside,.

short of backing up a car and and trying to rip it off.. and then only the handle might follow you ..

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:10:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
The GD crowd seems to think that patrol officers carry everything from wall breaching charges to Halligan tools.

Slugs to the lock/chain/hinges is about the only thing that an officer is going to have available. Windows would be nice, but we don't carry ladders either. Several of our local high schools are notable for not having ANY ground floor windows. Folks in GD suggest ramming the door with your patrol car. I'll happily do that when someone shows me how to drive up two flights of a staircase and to get around the vehicle barricades emplaced after Oklahoma City.


Easy to do.

You just have to use the 'Dukes of Hazzard' driving school...

I thought it was a standard requirement all over the south...
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:12:06 AM EDT
Little bit of det cord and a section of time fuse
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:12:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Silence:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
The GD crowd seems to think that patrol officers carry everything from wall breaching charges to Halligan tools.

Slugs to the lock/chain/hinges is about the only thing that an officer is going to have available. Windows would be nice, but we don't carry ladders either. Several of our local high schools are notable for not having ANY ground floor windows. Folks in GD suggest ramming the door with your patrol car. I'll happily do that when someone shows me how to drive up two flights of a staircase and to get around the vehicle barricades emplaced after Oklahoma City.


Easy to do.

You just have to use the 'Dukes of Hazzard' driving school...

I thought it was a standard requirement all over the south...


that only works in POVs that have the musical horn installed..

cop cars have that nasty one tune horn... and it offers ZERO lift .
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:13:33 AM EDT
As somone said in another thread "my patrol car thru the doors would make the chain irrelevent"
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:15:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
The GD crowd seems to think that patrol officers carry everything from wall breaching charges to Halligan tools.
then that would be the militarization of police
Slugs to the lock/chain/hinges is about the only thing that an officer is going to have available. Windows would be nice, but we don't carry ladders either. Several of our local high schools are notable for not having ANY ground floor windows. Folks in GD suggest ramming the door with your patrol car. I'll happily do that when someone shows me how to drive up two flights of a staircase and to get around the vehicle barricades emplaced after Oklahoma City.



Det cord works real nice but is not practical.

You can't win with some...
If you train and have the equipment to counter threats like this then you are JBT's
If you don't then you are cowards

The only answer is armed citizens everywhere all the time

Bitch an moan all you like a Force Recon Team or SEALS would not have made a difference in the outcome in VA unless they happend to be there in battle rattle when it started
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:15:26 AM EDT
Shape charge.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:17:19 AM EDT
I'm going to edit the first post and say

3. there are bars for security on the first floor windows ( as is the case in most schools)

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:18:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 7:26:51 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By roguetrader:
1. How would you as a responder get the doors opened in a hurry?


From what I understand the guys on the ground at VT breached the doors.

You can blast the hinges of the door and get through it, or you can bust out a window and try and gain access that way.

If I found the doors chained shut and there was a window nearby, I would go for the window. Sometimes that isn't an option.

Worse comes to worse I have seen police cruisers used as a 2 ton battering ram. Very effective but a little rough on the paint job....and obviously it only works on ground floor doors to the outside.

ETA -- The VT situation was just badness all around. The cops did the best they could possibly do.

Their response time was actually good considering the barricade and the hoopla going on.



Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:19:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Slugs to the chain/lock. Which is what I believe VT University/Blackburg PD used to gain entry.


Well....ya......if you want to be a cheater about it.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:20:26 AM EDT
since we are armchair quartbacking this to death ,,

someone post a pic on the front of the school and let the fantasy door breeching begin ,.


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:21:40 AM EDT
I would think a Crown Vic would get through those doors at a high enough speed.....
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:23:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Bolt cutters.

BlackHawk!!@@®®®™™™!!! has an entire line of entry tools and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

Edit: HOWEVER... They could have been wary at first due to the possibility of booby traps.


were not the doors chained from the INSIDE ?

boltcutters would not be very effective from the outside.. also someone mentioned the glass on school doors is diffrent ,,

bad situation all the way around.

I was fast to critasize<sp> the cops about waiting ..or what seemed like waiting.,, but how the hell do you get thru a door that chained from the inside,.

short of backing up a car and and trying to rip it off.. and then only the handle might follow you ..



Of course... but assuming there was a little "give" on the door (rock back and forth perhaps) maybe a tool could get in there.

As someone else said though, it's all armchair speculation at this point.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:24:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:
since we are armchair quartbacking this to death ,,

someone post a pic on the front of the school and let the fantasy door breeching begin ,.


Personally I would do this.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:27:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:
since we are armchair quartbacking this to death ,,

someone post a pic on the front of the school and let the fantasy door breeching begin ,.


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:29:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 7:31:06 AM EDT by divkat9]
vrwc0915 says-
Det cord works real nice but is not practical.


I say-
Yea, I know but it is fun to use and she works!
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:29:29 AM EDT
Maybe Police departments could get surplus AT4s?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:32:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Bolt cutters.

BlackHawk!!@@®®®™™™!!! has an entire line of entry tools and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

Edit: HOWEVER... They could have been wary at first due to the possibility of booby traps.


were not the doors chained from the INSIDE ?

boltcutters would not be very effective from the outside.. also someone mentioned the glass on school doors is diffrent ,,



bingo.... Chained from the inside with safety glass windows are a real problem in public buildings.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:32:57 AM EDT
frontdoor


backdoor



Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:33:18 AM EDT
Doors with little or no glass around them or in them can be really tricky.

IF someone had a crowbar, halligan tool, or other prying tool, you may be able to pry the door open far enough to expose the chain, allowing it to be cut or shot.

Some windows may allow entry, but many schools have windows too small for a man to fit through, or have plexiglass, or other materials that are more difficult to get through.

Ideally, tools like those used by maritime breaching teams would be available, and these could be used to cut through the doors if no other point of entry is available. Most fire departments have these tools.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:34:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheKill:
I would think a Crown Vic would get through those doors at a high enough speed.....


Assuming that there are no steps up that lead to the doors.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:36:05 AM EDT
That front door looks tough... open kill zone no way to get wheeled equipment close....

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:36:43 AM EDT
a good 220 genny, a plasma arc cutter


alternately, a good 220 portable arc welder and an oxygen lance



Not very practical to haul around in the truunk of the old prowl car though huh
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:46:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:

Originally Posted By macman37:
Bolt cutters.

BlackHawk!!@@®®®™™™!!! has an entire line of entry tools and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

Edit: HOWEVER... They could have been wary at first due to the possibility of booby traps.


Should be a mandatory item in every patrol car trunk.


2 SIZES..
one regular and one of the larger sets.

i have found that on certain chains and locks, i had a hard time with due to the size of the cutters.

GET BOTH.

now the question is for cables..
cables are a bitch to cut.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:46:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 7:48:14 AM EDT by joker581]

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
That front door looks tough... open kill zone no way to get wheeled equipment close....

None of them would be particularly easy.

Access to the front doors would be somewhat limited by the lack of cover and the huge kill zone in front of it. The approach would be across open space, and the doors are set into the front of the building, making it more difficult to get to cover if the shooter(s) came around the corner. They look like they'd be the easiest doors to get through though, assuming they are heavy wood and glass like they appear to be.

The second door would be rough. If chained with no slack, you'd probably have to tear out both doors at the frame, or cut the doors with a quicksaw or a torch.

The third door is slightly better, at least it has windows. The down side is that it appears to be a steel fire door, and if well chained, would be damn tough to open.

Breaching that building would be damned tough to do quickly. I sure don't envy the guys that had to open them.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:50:56 AM EDT
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:59:36 AM EDT
Patrol car through the doors is all well and good until you consider what might be stacked up behind those doors.

I'm talking about people trying to escape.

The answer is circular saws.

If a cop wants me to open a door all he has to do is ask. Fuck that staging shit.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:02:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders



Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:04:03 AM EDT
That is why all offciers should carry C4 and detonators. Just blow open your own door.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:04:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders



Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?


Generally the policy says no.

See my above comment.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:05:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders



Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?



No, but when I was a peace officer I would not hesitate to say give me your ______ to a firefighter
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:07:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders



Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?


In a major city firefighters/EMS usually are in a unsecured area with gunfire
(my brother is a Philly firefighter in the most busy part of the city)
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:07:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 8:11:53 AM EDT by southpaw67]
Alot of PD/Sheriff Dept around here are using Dodge Durangos(SUV) as patrol vehicles...plenty of room for a quickie saw in the back along with other entry tools. JMHO

For the few who may not know what Im talking about;
quickie saw/cutoff saw= Chainsaw engine w/attached masonry or metal cutting 12"+ circular blade...hot knife thru butter when used correctly



ETA.....with all the new rechargable battery powered recipricating sawzalls on the market, one with the correct blade could be stored in any or most PD vehicles and be available at a moments notice.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:17:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
The fire trucks should have had:
chiansaws
cut off wheels
rams spreaders



Will the firefighters go into an unsecured area with gun fire going on?


a firefighting stud would..
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:21:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 8:22:32 AM EDT by Crowcreek]
It shouldn't have been too difficult to figure out which WINDOWS the students had been using for egress. That would be a nice entry point, even though the possibility of encountering the perpetrator would be high.

As for the doors, I can tell you with some certainty that pulling them with a vehicle would be safest, fastest and most direct. All you need is a car, cable/tow strap/chain/doubled rope -- and possibly a prybar to get things rigged. One minute, tops.

Rig them in the center and jerk them right out of the door frame. No danger to anyone inside, and outside people would be standing clear.


Oh, and that's coming from a guy who has the biggest demo saw Husky makes, and more cutters, and torch rigs than I care to admit. This stuff is like calling SWAT -- It takes an extra ten minutes.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:23:47 AM EDT
Based on the photograph of that front door, with a shooter inside, I would ideally force entry as follows:

1. Place one officer tasked with covering fire and a 12 gauge with slugs on either side of the inset entryway, mostly behind concrete cover.

2. Wearing as much kevlar as I could find an function under, using a hole saw and cordless drill, bore through two doors, one on either side of the center strut "door stop", dead center in the entryway between the two double door sets.

3. Pass a chain through one hole and fish it out the other hole, possibly using a coat hanger. Good steel cable could be used in place of the chain.

4. Run chain cable or nylon strap across the stairs/wall and down to one or more heavy vehicle frames.

5. Pull the entire door assembly, center strut first.

From a standing start, with my work truck on scene, and full cooperation, I could have the entire entryway open in 15 to 20 minutes, assuming I didn't come under fire.

Of course, the cops there didn't have my work truck, enough chain or strap, a cordless drill or hole saw, so....

If those ashtrays beside the door were movable, I'd try to place some officers in covering positions and use them to smash through the glass, then carefully use firearms to shoot the lock unti it failed.

Without the ashtrays, I might try a vehicle jack, just to see what effect it had. A tire tool might be able to loosen one of the retaining wall stones, which then could be used to smash the glass and access the chain. The bald guy with the shotgun's head looks pretty solid, maybe....

Point being, without the proper tools, that's going to be a tough nut to crack.

I once (successfully) yanked a three story staircase, basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor, plus the house's core assembly of closets and bathrooms, moved the whole flipping mess 4 inchs to fix a young layout man's mistake, in a completed house without compromising or risking the structure, and another time I pulled an 8" by 12" by 22 foot laminated beam out from under the joist and floor system it supported, and replaced it, again without compromising the new building, so heavy demo isn't new to me, but without the right tools, it ranges from very difficult, to impossible.

If the best procedure isn't an option, due to lack of equipment, then some cobbled together set-up using materials at hand would take me at least 30 minutes, more likely an hour, and in this situation, that's just too long.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:30:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Crowcreek:
It shouldn't have been too difficult to figure out which WINDOWS the students had been using for egress. That would be a nice entry point, even though the possibility of encountering the perpetrator would be high.

IIRC, the building doesn't have first deck windows, or if it does, they are pretty high off of the ground.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:37:58 AM EDT
Why couldnt you shotgun your way through that door?
Sorry, but I have no experience at this.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:47:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stickman6:
Why couldnt you shotgun your way through that door?
Sorry, but I have no experience at this.
It may have been possible with the front doors, assuming wood and glass construction.

The other two doors probably could have been breached with a shotgun too, but what could they aim at? The chains probably wouldn't have been visible, and there is a decent chance that students would be on the other side trying to get out. The hinges may be actually welded to the door and the door, frame, and locking assembly is a bit more robust than residential doors.

And, the doors open outward, making it neccessary to pry the doors open once shot, rather than being able to kick them in.

Judging from the pictures, it looks like they probably (a) went through the glass in the front doors and cut/shot the chains or (b) were able to pull one of the other doors open enough to cut/shoot the chains.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:05:50 AM EDT

MK153 SMAW, tandem warhead bunker buster. Only proven way to breach an obstacle.
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