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Posted: 2/7/2006 4:58:14 PM EDT
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PROCTOR, Ark. - A 94-year-old man who accidentally shot himself in the abdomen while cleaning his shotgun is expected to make a full recovery, despite waiting until the next morning to ask for help.

...

Sturghill waited for a home health care nurse to arrive about 8:30 a.m. Monday before asking for medical attention.

Before the nurse arrived, Sturghill had cleaned the wound and wrapped it with a towel, Martin said.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:59:42 PM EDT
Damn! Glad it's gonna buff out. Damn pesky bird shot!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:01:24 PM EDT
Hopefully nobody did, and to head off any debates:

Pistol worst, medium ammo amount, least accurate (not shoulder fired), least powerful
Shotgun better, limited ammo, larger recoil, shoulder fired
Rifle best, more ammo, faster follow up shots, shoulder fired

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:01:30 PM EDT
20 ga. is the 9mm of shotguns
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:01:47 PM EDT
Worked for me.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:03:32 PM EDT
Nobody is getting up after being hit with #7 out of my Ithaca M&P.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:05:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rwinn625:
20 ga. is the 9mm of shotguns



Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:06:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rwinn625:
20 ga. is the 9mm of shotguns




alot of the 20gauge loads are the same weight as 12gauge loads in a smaller package
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:07:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By rwinn625:
20 ga. is the 9mm of shotguns




alot of the 20gauge loads are the same weight as 12gauge loads in a smaller package



Same goes for 9mm and .357 mag.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:08:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rwinn625:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By rwinn625:
20 ga. is the 9mm of shotguns




alot of the 20gauge loads are the same weight as 12gauge loads in a smaller package



Same goes for 9mm and .357 mag.



Pwnt
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:10:19 PM EDT
See #1 below of the top three stupid questions that I am sick of answering.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:27:24 PM EDT
I know of a guy that through a series of stupid moves while out riding the roads jack lighting deer { my surmise } managed to get shot with a Brenneke slug through the thigh, exited and then up into his abdomen and the slug ended up lodged next to his spine. He lived. When I met him at a gun range the slug was still in him and they had a tube draining his back. He was about to go in for some more surgery.

There is always a miracle. For the defensive shotgun I have a graduated loading. 7.5, 7.5, Turkey #4, Turkey #4. 00 at the ready.
rj
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:29:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:30:19 PM EDT by fossil_fuel]
why not just start with 1 shell of rubber bullets and have 00 after that? if they don't get the message after the rubber bullets, no point in wasting time gonig through weak loads.

although personally i think that if they don't get the message after you level a gun at them, the aren't going to get the message until they're dead....

btw whats jack lighting?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:37:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
why not just start with 1 shell of rubber bullets and have 00 after that? if they don't get the message after the rubber bullets, no point in wasting time gonig through weak loads.

although personally i think that if they don't get the message after you level a gun at them, the aren't going to get the message until they're dead....

btw whats jack lighting?



Funny you should mention that: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=430368
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:40:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 6:40:57 PM EDT by danonly]
yeah- i'd skip the two rounds of 7.5
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:42:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rjay:
I know of a guy that through a series of stupid moves while out riding the roads jack lighting deer { my surmise } managed to get shot with a Brenneke slug through the thigh, exited and then up into his abdomen and the slug ended up lodged next to his spine. He lived. When I met him at a gun range the slug was still in him and they had a tube draining his back. He was about to go in for some more surgery.

There is always a miracle. For the defensive shotgun I have a graduated loading. 7.5, 7.5, Turkey #4, Turkey #4. 00 at the ready.
rj



WHY????
If you know in your mind that it might come to needing the buck, why not just load up with it in the first place???

Birdshot, by definition, is made to kill small, thin skinned creatures with hollow bones while doing as little damage as possible. What makes people use the same load to try to stop a 200 pound felon that they would use to kill a seven pound bird?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:47:48 PM EDT
I have NEVER thought birdshot would be good for home defense, Double or Triple ought buck ONLY
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:49:57 PM EDT
you have two options:

buckshot.
slug.

If you are using anything else, it is like putting lawnmower tires on your corvette and going "bad ass!"
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:54:17 PM EDT
How does one shoot themselves while cleaning a gun? Still have yet to understand how that happens.
Maybe he was working on killing himself and thought #7 shot from a 20 guage to the stomach was a good idea. Relizing after he pulled the trigger that he wasn't automatically ripped in half or blown backwards 30 ft ( like in the movies ) he was thinking ,damn,I better get this looked at.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:54:47 PM EDT
I personally saw the aftermath of a shotgun wound to the abdomen with birdshot. It was underwhelming. At the time I didn't know how the guy survived, I do now after reading around this site the last couple of years.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:57:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
[Birdshot, by definition, is made to kill small, thin skinned creatures with hollow bones while doing as little damage as possible. |]



At 40 yds a few of the pellets have just enough energy to kill the bird because they shed velocity quickly. At 10 to 20 FEET they will arrive with lots of energy. The larger pellets in 00 are intended for use on deer etc so they will have enough energy to penetrate to the vitals at 20 to 40 yds. At a few feet they are over kill. I would use #4 Buck as my normal load if I was going to load buckshot only. Lots more pellets. Still plenty big. I think they are 33 cal. Been a long time since I have looked at the chart.

rj
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:07:20 PM EDT
I was going to start a new thread with this pic, but this thread will work.

Story line is out quail hunting, father gets shot by son.

Looks like it hurts like hell.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:10:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By entropy:
I was going to start a new thread with this pic, but this thread will work.

Story line is out quail hunting, father gets shot by son.

Looks like it hurts like hell.

i9.photobucket.com/albums/a55/Bruiser_/pattern.jpg



nice pattern! Looks like that was 10-15 yards out.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:10:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 6:29:06 AM EDT by txgp17]
Up close (real close), bird shot rips through flesh just like a slug does. This is not internet urban legend. I've witnessed the terminal ballistics of bird shot more than once riding Ambulances & Fire trucks in the last 15 years. I'm not saying it's as good as 00 or #1 buck, but it CAN kill you just as dead inside 10'.

The fact that this old man shot himself and lived doesn't prove much of anything.

I saw a guy after he took three shots from a 30-06, one in the forearm, one in the abdomen, and one in the chest, he had dual sucking chest wounds as a result, and the forearm shot blew away almost all the tissue from his arm below the elbow. He lived, and remained conscious the entire time I treated him.

I saw another kid after he shot himself in the thigh with a 38, he lived.
I saw a guy after getting shot in the neck, entrance & exit, and he lived.

I also treated a friend from high school that caught one (1, uno) buck shot pellet in the head. It penetrated his skull, changed direction and travel downward, severed his optical nerve, ruptured his exteral jugular, and lodged in his lung that ended up collapsing. He died. And that was from ONE (1, uno) shotgun buckshot pellet, don't recall the size. Gauge didn't matter cause all it took was one pellet.

One incident doesn't prove much. I've treated people that fell from 15' and refused to be treated cause the felt fine. I've also treated a man that slipped in the shower and broke his neck and died a week later. People get killed by 22's every day. But in general we all accept the idea that "more lead" is better.

And for you guys who are "progessively" loading heavier shot in your gun. WTF? If you have reason enough to resort to grabbing the shotty, you should have reason to pump some 00 into their sorry oxygen wasting ass.

#1 buck can typically competely penetrate a human sized animal, so some people claim anything larger than that is a waste. I keep my 590 loaded with 00 Hevi-shot, and I've got some 000 3' magnums as backup.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:11:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By entropy:
I was going to start a new thread with this pic, but this thread will work.

Story line is out quail hunting, father gets shot by son.

Looks like it hurts like hell.

i9.photobucket.com/albums/a55/Bruiser_/pattern.jpg


Maybe he just has a serious case of ticks or black heads.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:13:58 PM EDT
#4 and #2 shot would do some serious damage.

#9,8,7,6 are for the trap line

Buckshot is for hunting deer
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:15:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By entropy:
I was going to start a new thread with this pic, but this thread will work.

Story line is out quail hunting, father gets shot by son.

Looks like it hurts like hell.

i9.photobucket.com/albums/a55/Bruiser_/pattern.jpg



A guy I knew in high school was SHOT IN THE FACE with a 2 3/4" 12 gauge round loaded with #6 shot. He was hit by his father in hunting accident from 8 YARDS. The shot cup actually cut his face so it was not a peripheral hit. He was released from the hospital the next day, and the only permanent damage was 30% vision loss in one eye.

Does that sound like an effective weapon to use against a violent attacker???
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:16:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:

Originally Posted By entropy:
I was going to start a new thread with this pic, but this thread will work.

Story line is out quail hunting, father gets shot by son.

Looks like it hurts like hell.

i9.photobucket.com/albums/a55/Bruiser_/pattern.jpg



A guy I knew in high school was SHOT IN THE FACE with a 2 3/4" 12 gauge round loaded with #6 shot. He was hit by his father in hunting accident from 8 YARDS. The shot cup actually cut his face so it was not a peripheral hit. He was released from the hospital the next day, and the only permanent damage was 30% vision loss in one eye.

Does that sound like an effective weapon to use against a violent attacker???



Sure.

You can kill somebody with it so IT IS EFFECTIVE.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:19:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
And for you guys who are "progessively" loading heavier shot in your gun. WTF? .



Family members in other rooms ??

rj
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:22:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 7:22:50 PM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By rjay:

Originally Posted By txgp17:
And for you guys who are "progessively" loading heavier shot in your gun. WTF? .


Family members in other rooms ??
rj

Good point, and I can understand that, but if you're willing to use it in the fourth or fifth shot, why would you be reserved about using it in the first shot? If you're truly concerned about over penetration, would it not make more sense to load the gun with #4's or #6's only?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:28:11 PM EDT
Thank god that old guy didn't rack that shotgun. He'd be dead for sure.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:33:12 PM EDT
I don't understand progressive loading or any of all the crazy ammo on various holders and that. Buckshot....000 is in my gun now. Less pellets to worry about, and, will kill dead. I have a family too, but, if I pop the guy with a phesant load and, he pops me, then, my family is in alot of trouble.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:33:57 PM EDT
I agree slugs or buckshot is best but I would not hesitate to use number four shot either.



Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:39:20 PM EDT
some people in this thread are just asking for a refutation by a terminal ballistics expert.



Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:46:58 PM EDT

so who still thinks birdshot is good enough for home defence?

Probably the same morons who think carrying on an empty chamber is a good idea.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:48:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:

so who still thinks birdshot is good enough for home defence?

Probably the same morons who think carrying on an empty chamber is a good idea.



all those israelis?

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:52:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
I don't understand progressive loading or any of all the crazy ammo on various holders and that. Buckshot....000 is in my gun now. Less pellets to worry about, and, will kill dead. I have a family too, but, if I pop the guy with a phesant load and, he pops me, then, my family is in alot of trouble.



If you pop him with buck and he pops you, you are also in trouble
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:52:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 7:57:02 PM EDT by Austrian]

Short answer: Switch to #1 buck.

This topic has been covered over and over and OVER again.

Unless you are using hardened #1 buck or #00 buck or slugs you just aren't getting sufficient terminal performance. Period. End of line. Next issue.

All of this totally ignoring the fact that #1, #00 and Slugs will all penetrate a bit too much indoors to be comfortable.

.223/5.56 is far better in this respect. Don't trust me, trust the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI, and the other 6 studies on the topic.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:26:52 PM EDT
I'll start off by sayin that I don't and would never rely on birdshot for defense, but on the other hand, I have killed 2 deer with it in the past. They were both within 10 yards, they both took 2 quick shots to the head, and they both dropped right where they were at.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:42:11 PM EDT
Don't use airsoft either.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:12:38 PM EDT
3.5" 00 Buck
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:19:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 9:30:01 PM EDT by TheTracker]
Has anyone here just for the hell of it while out bird hunting just shoot the top a small tree
about 3 inches wide from a short distance, it cuts it right in half .
In a home the distance would be the same, 5 to 7 yards
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:22:55 PM EDT
1 ounce of 6 shot in the chest would make a pretty nasty wound. Keep in mind that those little six shot are going damn near fast as a .22 bullet. When I was a kid I had a 20 guage single shot and I was hunting rabbits. Well this rabbit jumps up and runs about 10 ft and stops. Nailed him square. It pretty much hamburgered that rabbit and I learned a lesson about the power of a shotgun up close.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:24:57 PM EDT
10 yards from #6 would hurt alot.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:26:06 PM EDT
i got a friend who is a medic with a canadian HSLD outfit, he does trauma rotations in american ERs like LA and Dallas and he told me that from his experience 12ga birdshot at "hallway" and "bedroom" ranges makes 3 inch diameter ragged holes extremely difficult to repair. pentration is shallow but bleeding is sometimes so profuse it makes it hard to work. i still wouldnt use it though.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:34:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Has anyone here just for the hell of it while out bird hunting just shoot the top a small tree
about 3 inches wide from a short distance, it cuts it right in half .
In a home the distance would be the same




I'm sure that little tree is about the same thing as a human body, from a physiological standpoint


1 ounce of 6 shot in the chest would make a pretty nasty wound. Keep in mind that those little six shot are going damn near fast as a .22 bullet. When I was a kid I had a 20 guage single shot and I was hunting rabbits. Well this rabbit jumps up and runs about 10 ft and stops. Nailed him square. It pretty much hamburgered that rabbit and I learned a lesson about the power of a shotgun up close.


yup, and that wittle bunny wabbit is built the same as a 230 pound thug breaking into your house, right? Or even a 180 pound man?

so, that #6 shot is going how fast? and how fast is it slowing down? and how fast is it spreading? and how much does each shot weigh? and how deep does it penetrate? past the minimum for good performance on humans- what is it? 12"?

why is it that a .22 will travel "a mile" while birdshot is lucky to make it a 1/4 mile? and that is just through air, right? ever think maybe the differences between the two will be magnified when traveling through a denser medium, such as flesh, or even *heaven forbid* bone? and who thinks a .22 is a good home defense round? feh.


Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:35:35 PM EDT
my Dad got it in the butt once when somebody saw a rabbit run across his path...funny to have a guy bent over in the woods with his pants down getting BBs plucked out...
no, I wasn't there...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:36:41 PM EDT
Yes, I use #8 shot. I have 00buck and slugs on the buttcuff. Why? Because the longest shot in my house is 11yds to the front door, and I would have to be STANDING in the kitchen sink to get that distance. I have family and neighbors I dont want getting shot accidentally because I had to plug a burglar.

If the burglar/assaliant/assassin/zombie wants to get past that, I have an AK with soft points in reserve.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:39:12 PM EDT
This whole discssion is stupid. If you're legally justified in shooting someone with birdshot, you're legally justified in shooting them with 00 buck, a slug, or even a .308. Why in God's name would you purposely use birdshot, when so many other better alternatives are available?

There is no legal or moral difference between shooting someone with birdshot or a slug.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:39:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 9:42:13 PM EDT by copenhagen]

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Has anyone here just for the hell of it while out bird hunting just shoot the top a small tree
about 3 inches wide from a short distance, it cuts it right in half .
In a home the distance would be the same




I'm sure that little tree is about the same thing as a human body, from a physiological standpoint


1 ounce of 6 shot in the chest would make a pretty nasty wound. Keep in mind that those little six shot are going damn near fast as a .22 bullet. When I was a kid I had a 20 guage single shot and I was hunting rabbits. Well this rabbit jumps up and runs about 10 ft and stops. Nailed him square. It pretty much hamburgered that rabbit and I learned a lesson about the power of a shotgun up close.


yup, and that wittle bunny wabbit is built the same as a 230 pound thug breaking into your house, right? Or even a 180 pound man?

so, that #6 shot is going how fast? and how fast is it slowing down? and how fast is it spreading? and how much does each shot weigh? and how deep does it penetrate? past the minimum for good performance on humans- what is it? 12"?

why is it that a .22 will travel "a mile" while birdshot is lucky to make it a 1/4 mile? and that is just through air, right? ever think maybe the differences between the two will be magnified when traveling through a denser medium, such as flesh, or even *heaven forbid* bone? and who thinks a .22 is a good home defense round? feh.\

.





Dont get your panties in a wad. I never said bird shot is the ultimate self defense load. What I said was it would make a hell of a nasty wound. If you think it would just scratch you try one ounce in the chest at self defense range. Good Luck.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:40:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 9:41:52 PM EDT by TheTracker]

Originally Posted By danonly:

Originally Posted By TheTracker:
Has anyone here just for the hell of it while out bird hunting just shoot the top a small tree
about 3 inches wide from a short distance, it cuts it right in half .
In a home the distance would be the same




I'm sure that little tree is about the same thing as a human body, from a physiological standpoint


1 ounce of 6 shot in the chest would make a pretty nasty wound. Keep in mind that those little six shot are going damn near fast as a .22 bullet. When I was a kid I had a 20 guage single shot and I was hunting rabbits. Well this rabbit jumps up and runs about 10 ft and stops. Nailed him square. It pretty much hamburgered that rabbit and I learned a lesson about the power of a shotgun up close.


yup, and that wittle bunny wabbit is built the same as a 230 pound thug breaking into your house, right? Or even a 180 pound man?

so, that #6 shot is going how fast? and how fast is it slowing down? and how fast is it spreading? and how much does each shot weigh? and how deep does it penetrate? past the minimum for good performance on humans- what is it? 12"?

why is it that a .22 will travel "a mile" while birdshot is lucky to make it a 1/4 mile? and that is just through air, right? ever think maybe the differences between the two will be magnified when traveling through a denser medium, such as flesh, or even *heaven forbid* bone? and who thinks a .22 is a good home defense round? feh.





listen I never claimed to be an expert as you are I guess. only what I have done myself with a shotgun. At 5 yards the distance you would shoot in a home defense senario I don't know the PSI
of force a 870 with 3inch birdshot would have. ,but I bet it's quite a bit
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