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Posted: 9/26/2004 11:08:42 AM EST
seems like abraham kicks hagar and ismael out. It also says something about how ismael will be wild against everyman. (muslim terrorists) is this the Bibles way of explaining how muslims are so nuts??
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:11:16 AM EST
Yes, IIRC the Arabs believe they are descended from Ishmael
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:14:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 11:15:10 AM EST by JohnTheTexican]

Originally Posted By Mak762:
seems like abraham kicks hagar and ismael out. It also says something about how ismael will be wild against everyman. (muslim terrorists) is this the Bibles way of explaining how muslims are so nuts??




Except that there weren't any Moslems when it was written. That didn't start until the seventh century A.D.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:15:23 AM EST
Yep. Isaac (Jews) & Ishmeal (Arabs). Proof-positive that sibling rivalry is in the blood.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:17:11 AM EST
It's not fair in your title to say that's why Jews hate the Arabs. It's more the other way around. I think Jews would be fine with Arabs if the Arabs weren't trying to wipe them out.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:17:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 11:18:11 AM EST by Zionist]
Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:
Yep. Isaac (Jews) & Ishmeal (Arabs). Proof-positive that sibling rivalry is in the blood.


+1
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:21:06 AM EST
interesting stuff, the Bible sure has some weird stuff...
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 11:21:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 11:21:36 AM EST by DK-Prof]
I don't think Jews hate arabs at all - there are plenty of arab Israeli citizens.

I think the Jews/Isrealis hate the particular arabs who keep trying to kill them, and who want to annihilate their country.

Link Posted: 9/26/2004 12:01:22 PM EST
OK let's clear some things up HISTORICALLY!!! #1 when Ishmail and Issac were born this was about ~3000 BC. And this Ishmail was kinda of like a 'loose end' What ever became of him and his tribe the "ishmailites" is unknown. so from 3000 bc to about 679 AD the Person known as Ishmail was just another character in the bible who only got mentioned a few times. Now lets go to the "Arabs" about 650 AD. They did not belive themselves to be the children of Ishmail or Abraham. They had their own "mythology" about creation and the orgin of the arabs. With no connection to the Jews whatsoever. Actually because they were from the samr region they had similiar languages, but so did a lot of tribes in that region. including Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese ETC. They did'nt care about the Jews or the Jewish religion. Essentially they were pagans. And the main holy Shrine in arabia was a place called the kabba with many idols of Gods in them. Now heres where it gets interesting, Along comes a man named Muhammed, He wanted the Arabs to belive in this God of Abraham. And he wanted to somehow connect all arabs to Abraham himself to give them further incentive. So "WALL-LA" he pulls out of his ass the "missing stories" of the bible. He 'Claimed' That Ishmael was the one who was to be sacraficed by Abraham instead of Issac. And that It was those two who somehow wandered into mecca and built the Kabba. But that later it was taken over by Idol worshippers. In order to put the arabs on an equal footing with the jews he claimed bloodkinship through Ishmael. But prior to Muhammuds birth noone had ever heard of this foolishness. There is no evidence that "hebrews" of any sort built the Kabba. And while the Jews managed to keep only one God. The Arabs had somehow totally forgot that they were abrahams children and worshipped a million idols. And thought up their own Creation Myths. Just think of it this way. Suppose a old rich Guy dies leaving no will. Then all his relatives flock with lawyers to divvy up the money. Then "some guy" shows up and claims that he too is related to the dead rich man. His proof?? Well lets just say it was all destroyed in the fire at the orphanage Unfortunatly To tell this truth to Muslims is the highest insult So Even both Jews and Christians "play along" and try to be polite about their "long lost cousin". And of course now some Jews and christians like the story because it fits into their theological view that the arabs are the sons of a 'concubine' who was NOT favored by abraham or sarah and somehow armageddon will come with the "sons of Ishmael" being involved. But for all those who want to know the Archeological truth, there is no connection between the Ismail of the bible and the modern day arab.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 12:40:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/26/2004 12:42:56 PM EST by raven]
Talking to Rebel Gray about this story, I learned that the Muslims have the scripture backwards; that Hagar is the legit wife and Ishmael the legit son, and Sarah and Isaac are the ones Abraham went with when he doubted God would provide him a son with Hagar.

Mohammed basically turned the Hebrew scripture on its head. The entire religion is based on a lie.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 12:42:13 PM EST
Wow, didn't know that. Worth looking info further.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:38:33 PM EST
The story is more that Hagar was a princess that fled with Abraham form Egypt. SHe was very beautiful. She became Sara's handmaiden.
When Sara could not become pregnant, Sara gave Harar to become the wife of Avraham. Ismael was very close to Avraham. When Sara Conceived Yitsak, he bacame close to Ismael,they were very close.
Sara eventually became jealous of all of them. She pushed Avraham to get rid of Hagar and Ismael. Avraham, reluctantly did it. But went into the desert after them and helped them.
It is felt that Avraham and Ismael often saw each othner after it. Avraham was torn by the way Sara treated them.
Remember that most modern sources do not understand the Jewish History and culture at teh time of the T*r*h.
Polygamy was the norm....itis about jealousy. Ismael would get the birthright as he was the oldest son. Sara was in a sense greedy for Yitsak. The T*r*h is a source of great insight into the way humans act. It is deeper that most people understand. G*d gave it as an eternal source of Knowledge....as long as you hav ethe wisdom to understand it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:42:51 PM EST
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:46:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By raven:
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.




... he says, and pulls out a 1896 Mauser Broomhandle
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 2:57:00 PM EST
Color me simplistic, but it seems to me that if the Jews hate the Arabs, it's because the Arabs have made high sport of killing Jews.....
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 3:10:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Color me simplistic, but it seems to me that if the Jews hate the Arabs, it's because the Arabs have made high sport of killing Jews.....



+1

and now they've added Americans, Koreans, Thai's, Italians, etc...
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 3:38:31 PM EST
I say that King Richard and the rest of the Crusaders were right.

NUKE THE BASTARDS!!!!!


A seven dead terrorist salute to the bastards!
Link Posted: 9/26/2004 3:42:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
I say that King Richard and the rest of the Crusaders were right.

NUKE THE BASTARDS!!!!!


A seven dead terrorist salute to the bastards!



Uh oh, watch out for that pesky CoC, bro

- BG
Link Posted: 9/27/2004 11:26:30 AM EST
Zaphod...the conflict between Jews and Arabs are only a few centuries old. During the Crusades and before the Muslims actually tolerated and protected the Jews. Most of the Genocide against the Jews was the Crusaders. THey would kill Jews and destroy Synagouges. THe Muslinms held that against the Crusaders as they considered it against Allah. The toleration was replaced by hatred as Islam evolved in the 12 century.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:10:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheWind:
Zaphod...the conflict between Jews and Arabs are only a few centuries old. During the Crusades and before the Muslims actually tolerated and protected the Jews. Most of the Genocide against the Jews was the Crusaders. THey would kill Jews and destroy Synagouges. THe Muslinms held that against the Crusaders as they considered it against Allah. The toleration was replaced by hatred as Islam evolved in the 12 century.



Okay, and this affects my answer how?

I think "a few centuries" is an adequate amount of time for the tables to fip, don't you?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:22:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By TheWind:
Zaphod...the conflict between Jews and Arabs are only a few centuries old. During the Crusades and before the Muslims actually tolerated and protected the Jews. Most of the Genocide against the Jews was the Crusaders. THey would kill Jews and destroy Synagouges. THe Muslinms held that against the Crusaders as they considered it against Allah. The toleration was replaced by hatred as Islam evolved in the 12 century.



Okay, and this affects my answer how?

I think "a few centuries" is an adequate amount of time for the tables to fip, don't you?



Actually Islamic violence targeting Jews specificly only dates from the last quarter of the 19th century as the Ottoman empire collapsed.

Jews helped Muslims take most of the Christian Eastern Roman Empire and Spain in the 7th and early 8th Century. And sided again with Muslims in the Crusades, because the Christans at the time were far more violent bigots than the Muslims were.

But the Ottomans treated the Jews much more porely than the Arabs and Persians did in earlier times. Still not like today though. But enough that Jews started to agitate, and cooperate with the Western Powers when the Turkish power grew weak enough at the end of the 19th Century.

So much of the Hebrew bible is repeated, even if sometimes distored, in the Koran and Islamic law that Mohommad and many of his early followers may have been Jews or Aryan Christians themselves.

Religious tolerance is a product of Protestant Christianity, and even then only after surviving the 16th and 17th Century Wars of Religion.

Islams problem is that they never have been on the receving end, like the Jews have for centuries AND they never had their purging that the Christian world had in the Thirty Years War which directly led to the Enlightenment.
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