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Posted: 3/19/2001 1:59:19 PM EDT
if you were to buy a "sniper" grade rifle. what would you choose? caliber? action type? price range? and scope? later on i would like to buy a "sniper" or "precision" rifle. i would prefer something that is common in caliber, and parts. but really who makes the best? if on a limited budget what would you pick? say $500-$1000 before the scope. [sniper] if you ask me "why do you need a sniper rifle?" or "why would you want one?" the answer is because 1. i've never owned a really accurate rifle that could shoot a good distance 2. i've a right to do so, and 3. because i think they are cool. (espicially after enemy at the gates, and saving private ryan)
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 2:07:35 PM EDT
I would (and did) pick a Savage 10FP Long Range. They are chambered in many calibers (I'm getting a .308), and can be found for under $400. Kyle
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 2:20:22 PM EDT
An AR15 with a .22lr upper and a blast reducer.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 2:24:42 PM EDT
I'd highly recommend the Steyr SSG series. I've got the PIIK (.308)and it can make anybody look like a great shot. Sub MOA right out of the box and just under your price limit at $999. Other than that I'd recommend the Remington 700P series in .308. Had the chance to try two different 700P LTR's (Light Tactical Rifle) and was very impressed. Currently in the process of buying one from Costa Arms. Just be sure it's the hinged floor plate model, as the previous DM(Detachable Mag) types are flawed. And if money is tight you can't go wrong with the Savage 10FP.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 4:04:38 PM EDT
I would vote for the Remington 700P(police) models in .308 Win. They are available with 20" or 26" barrels. Almost every military/LE sniper manual has detailed information on this chambering. The short action is sometimes prefered because of it's shorter cycling length. It allows for less movement(minimal). I have a standard wood-stocked, heavy barrel BDL in .308 that I bought about 10 yrs ago. Very accurate. The 700P's are available to everyone at Hoplite, Inc for $699 in .308 Win. They also have them in .223, .300 Win Mag and .300 Ultra Mag. The Styer that jsr75 wrote about is also an excellent choice, although I've neer seen them priced that low. It is said they have the strongest action/barrel connection in bolt history. The barrel/action are additionally pressed with 10's of thousands of lbs pressure. I believe the bolt lugs actually engage the barrel also, where most bolts engage the action. You can find some good information at [url]www.snipersparadise.com[/url] and at [url]www.snipershide.com[/url] As far as scopes go, most military rifles have a fixed 10X with a mil-dot reticle for rangefinding. I believe the USMC is still using the Unertl on their bolt rifles. Unertl is now back in business and are building these for the public. [url]www.unertloptics.com[/url] They are very expensive though, $2,500. You can find the best prices on riflescopes at [url]www.swfa.com[/url] It's best to find one with 'one-piece' design. I do not mount variable scopes on my tactical rifes. Fixed power allows for slightly more clairity due to the use of fewer lenses which allow greater light gathering abilities. There are also fewer parts to malfuntion(KISS). [b]MOUNTS[/b]-this is as important as the scope/rifle combo. Always use a solid steel design. The Leupold MK 4 'Police Extreame Duty' rings/bases are one of the best, but they are very expesive at $360. I have the Leupold Duel-Dovetails on 2 BDLs. I actually weld the rings to the bases. This is probably the stronges system for the price. Don't get these confused with their standard bases with the windage adjustment. They add 3 extra unessesary moving parts;2 screws and the ring. [b]Ring Lapping[/b] is also a must for a precision rifle. This eliminates any mis-alignment in the rings and allows for more gripping surface to the scope. You can actually ruin a new scope if the rings are unlapped. Good Luck
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 4:16:05 PM EDT
The Chinese Dragunovs are suprisingly accurate, and are in Pre-ban configuration, but at a 1200 dollar tag. 700s are good, buy the steyr rifles mentioned by jsr75 are fine rifles indeed.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 4:27:23 PM EDT
If you're not too caught up in "the look" of an all-black 10-11 lb. heavy barrel, but want something that flat-out shoots like a rifle that costs a hell of a lot more, take a hard look at a Tikka. I have a Tikka All-weather (syn stock, matte-finished SS barrel) that shot (from a bench and bipod) a 0.357 MOA group (0.875"), 3 rounds in 90 seconds, at 200 meters. This after a total of 20 break-in rounds since new. 22 5/8" barrel 7.5 lbs, not counting optics Not as cool looking as some, but the Tikka just works. Henry
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 4:47:12 PM EDT
Remington 700 PSS in .308 26” barrel and someday an upgrade to an Accuracy International Chassis System [url]http://www.accuracyinternational.com/AICS.htm[/url] U.S. Opticts the current manufacturer of scopes for the USMC Snipers. [url]http://www.usoptics.com/[/url] Though I prefer their SN-3 with a day & night vision upgrade. And a set of sniper quality rings. THISISME
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 5:04:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 5:05:17 PM EDT
Steyr SBS tactical or Remington 700 PSS. The Steyr SSG is a great gun, but you have to use their rings at about $250 a set, whereas the SBS uses Browning A-bolt rings. The SBS is just as accurate and has a better safety and magazine system. The stock is much more comfortable than the PSS, and McMillan makes one for the SBS now. You can find them for under $800 new if you look around. Mine shoots 1/2 MOA with Federal match, in large part due to the fact that Steyr is not thinking about lawyers when they make their triggers.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 5:07:46 PM EDT
BTW, as an LEO I wholeheartedly support your right to own whatever 'sniper' rifle you want without justifying it to anyone!
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 5:10:26 PM EDT
I bought a Savage 12vss in .223 about a month ago. I am totally pleased with it's performance. Sub 1" groups right out of the box with factory ammo (american eagle 50g hollow pt, and 55g PMC FMJ-BT). With a scope and bipod it weighs about 15lbs. Fits under the precision category.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 6:37:08 PM EDT
If you believe the cult of the 1911, all you need is a 1911 Carbine with a Red Dot scope. [sniper]
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 6:38:48 PM EDT
I too second the Steyr SSG, just got mine. $799.99 NIB or $1,399.99 with Swarovski 6x42 Nato reticle scope. Add $200.00 for the PII or PIIK. The SSG is all you need though. CDNN 1-800-588-9500 Don't say I never did you guys any favors. Funny thing is, this gun w/ optics costs less than ANYTHING from Special Weapons.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 6:59:06 PM EDT
Everybodys got the Remington 700,and for good reason,so I decided Id like to be differant and try something else that I hear nobody talking about,so I purchased a Ruger KM 77VT Mark11 in 308.Today was my first trip to the range with her and Im really impressed,before I left for the range I made a quick call to Ruger to inquire about breaking in the barrel, and they told me that their rifle barrels don't need to be broken in.After I got the rifle sighted in (at 100 yards)and useing Federal Gold Match Ammo I gave her a quick swabbing with a solvent patch and ran about 7 dry patches through her,then I proceeded to shoot a .667 MOE group!!Thats pretty damn good for a box stock factory rifle,and factory ammo.My scope is a Nikon Monarch 6.5x20x44AO, which was purchased new about the same time I bought the rifle and that Nikon is a very nice piece of glass.Anyway I could'nt be happier with my new rifle&scope,this Wends we head for the 200 and then 300 yard ranges.The rifle lists for $779.00 but I got it NIB for $549.00 and the scope lists I think for about $750.00 but I bought it through SWFA for $489.00.Theres alot of real good rifles out there so you'll have alot to choose from.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 7:08:50 PM EDT
I picked up a nib remington 700 varmint last year for $500.00 and i must say it is more acurate then i am. with a 2X10X50 Simmons scope that only cost $100.00 it will shoot groups that can be covered by a quarter when i do my job.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 7:29:39 PM EDT
I would also go with the SSG, especially at these lower prices. I would prefer a little more than a 6x scope, maybe a 10, but the Sw scopes usually run around 1000, so the six power is a good deal. The Rem 700 is a good rifle and buy as well, and will shoot with the Steyr out to about 300 Yds. The real difference between them comes in the 300-1000 yrd range, where the Steyr is incredible. It seems to become more accurate the longer the distance. But parts for the steyr are very expensive, and really, most people (myself included) would be hard pressed to actually use the full accuaracy of the rifles, but the difference is there..
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 7:33:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2001 7:46:16 PM EDT by fezz]
i too have been going through the same problems of deciding what rifle to get. I looked at the Savage 10FP - nice rifle for the money, but action is not as smooth as a remington or steyr. the steyr is real nice - SBS Tactical with 5 and 10 round detachable mags - nice. around $800. i settled on a NIB Remington 700 LTR in .308. I wanted the shorter fluted barrel, adj. trigger, etc. the only thing i cant help but being disapointed in is the hinged mag base. why? i'm in the process of getting the rifle transfered to me. i paid $739. Now i've got to find a scope, rings and base - ouch!
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 8:13:30 PM EDT
DSArms SA-58 Special Order FAL. 20" Matte finished stainless bbl./recessed target crown. DSA scope mount/dust cover. Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40 Long Range M3 Illuminated Mil-Dot reticle. Leupold LE ring set. 5-10-20 round magazines. 30-rounders are even available... Harris Bipod with ? adapter(not bbl. mounted). For me, this would be a combination Urban Protection/Hunting/Target rifle. I'd want the ability to be able to engage multiple targets, or single targets with multiple projectiles, and be able to reload quickly. This rifle has sturdy back-up sights built in.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 8:48:58 PM EDT
Thus so far the steyr, remington 700, and savage are the most prefered precision rifle. i saw the add in cdnn about the steyr. i'm impressed by its looks, but would be concerned about parts. then again its a bolt action, what could go wrong? its still a good ways until i can purchase a sneeper rifle. buy the time i've saved up enough money, the steyr might not be offered by cdnn any longer. i considered the draganov and super vepr, but they are front heavy. mags are expensive and hard to find. heard good things about the super vepr. the super vepr is in .308n. quality scopes and ammo are becoming more available for the draganov and tiger rifles. i owned a mosin nagant in 7.62x54mm. it shot really well, but so did my spanish mauser in .308. i miss'em both. should have kept the mauser. i wish i could afford to buy a HK psg-1. what are they now about $11,000? i think i'd be happier with a bolt gun. if your gonna go with precision, go all the way. the dsa fn fal rifle that i would want costs about $1700 bucks...ouch!!! i've seen good deals on WWII sneeper rifles, but i question their accuracy compared to modern rifles. [sniper] is the m1 garand accurate enough for precision shooting? the m1a's i have looked at are pretty expensive. when i was in the army we had some foreign troops at ft. benning shooting m-14's until that time i didn't know they were capable of such accuracy. i've had a couple people recommend to me a swedish mauser. they say that they are more accurate then the german mauser's. 6.5mm i believe. shoots a flatter trajectory than the 8mm. does anybody know what accuracy i could expect from a tuned swedish mauser?
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 9:06:53 PM EDT
I am a fan of the Rem. 700 as the basis for a precision rifle. The problem is that when you buy a mass produced rifle, you run the risk of getting a "Dog" barrel, one that is inaccurate or fouls excessively, or has a sloppy chamber. In my opinion, the best way to go, is buy a used 700 action, have it rebarreled with a premium grade barrel, get the stock of your choice, get a aftermarket trigger or have yours adjusted. Here is the setup I would choose: Trued 700 short action, Pac-Nor stainless supermatch barrel #6 target contour w/ 308 match chamber, tubbs recoil lug, adjust the factory trigger to 2#, HS precision police stock, leupold MK 4 base and rings, leupold 4.5 x 14 tactical scope w/ mildot retical. You should be able to build the rifle without optics for around $ 1100.00 If you like to work on your own rifles, WWW.snipercountry.com has a lot of good info.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 9:33:23 PM EDT
I'd want a Blaser R93 Attache in 300 Win Mag. Mmmmmmm.....Turkish Walnut stock. All I needs is $5300 and it's mine.
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 10:23:14 PM EDT
See the Styers at [url]www.gsifirearms.com[/url]. The M1A/M14 is probably the best looking tactical rifle when scoped, but has always been 'mount impaired'. It requires mounting the scope very high. Mounts that copy the Brookfield design, which contact in 3 different places, seem to work the best. The factory alloyed, single/double side screw Springfield mounts always recieve much debate. I think the Minneapolis SWAT still uses the M21(M1A tactical) rifles as their counter-sniper weapons. I see the Navy Seals also have some in use(Hstory Channel Documentory). You can see the M1A's at [url]www.springfieldarmory.com[/url] I see somebody mentioned the Draganov rifles. These were suppose to be the first rifle, designed from the ground up, to be an actual sniper rifle. About 5 years ago these things filled the pages of Shotgun News, now it's hard to find any. I really want to pick up one of these someday. I think the complete systems were running just under $2,000 though. Did you know where the term 'sniper' comes from? In the 19th century, Europeans would hunt a bird called a Snipe(they live in the US also). These birds required great skill, speed, marksmanship and fieldcraft to shoot. Those that hunted them were called 'snipers'. To hunt them was called 'sniping'. The term somehow crossed over into military applications. You can read the complete story at one of the sniper websites listed above. Good Luck
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 10:27:05 PM EDT
What could go wrong with a bolt action well if it is a Steyr I believe they are known for having weak firing pins. Their firing pins are two piece and have a tendency to break and worse yet require a gunsmith to be fitted, so can not be replaced in the field, not good. I do not know if all Steyrs have this problem or if it is just the SSG, And Remingtons have extractor problems. I have hot heard anything bad about Savage but that does not mean there no problems. By the way what is all the fuss about having the most accurate rifle anyway. The load has more to do with usable accuracy then if one rifle shoots into 1/2 moa and another one only shoots into 3/4 moa. I do not mean that the rifle is not important just that the rifle is only part of the accuracy package. I believe that a 30-06 is a better long range round then a 308 Win. Properly loaded a 30-06 is easier and more certain to hit with at long range and that is the whole point of having a Sniper Rifle. The problem I am having is finding a 30-06 Sniper Rifle other then the Savage, I might just end up using a Garand. As to what I would use , well I would use either a bolt or a garand in 30-06 and carefully work up a load with some heavy VLD bullets. As to a scope a Leupold 3.5x10 vari-x III Mildot Tactical would do me just fine. Sniper for Justice
Link Posted: 3/19/2001 11:01:53 PM EDT
I would say that any 308 of 30-06 bolt action would do. If the action and the barrell is good. I prefer to build my own just because If I did get one of those expensive "sniper rifles" I would spend even more money to make it accurate for me anyway.
Link Posted: 3/20/2001 10:09:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2001 10:40:13 AM EDT by FreeAmerican]
Last year I bought a 700 vs in .223 26 in barrel for varmit hunting. I got the .223 because I know the round, have dies and loads for it already. And I have a .243 if I want bigger. I broke the barrel in with the shoot / clean for 10 shots then shoot 10 / clean for another 10 reps. (This works for me, I can already say the gun cleans easier.) So after that, I had a box of Federal Premium varmit .55 gr blitz kings. Mind you that this weapon is box stock, no trigger, nothing. I shot a 5 shot 100 yard goup with 4 shots going into 1 3/8 hole with 1 called flyer. Even if you thow in the flyer the overall group is 1/2 inch. I have a buddy with a PSS 700 in .308 that shoots as good if not better. Another buddy with a 700 vsl (laminated stock varmit) in 22-250 that shoots so well it should be a religious artifact. So my vote is a Remington 700 Ron
Link Posted: 3/20/2001 10:36:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2001 10:49:42 AM EDT by glazer1972]
I had put together and sold a Rem. M700 Var. Syn. Stain. Flut. ported with Lepould windage adj. rear bases and Burris Signature rings and a 3.5-10X40 Leupold Tactical Vari-X III with Butler Creek flip caps in .308 Win. that would shoot 5/8" groups at 100 yds. with factory Fed. 165 gr. gameking boattail softpoints. If I done another I would get a Rem. Varmint Synthetic .308 Win. with a 20"(urban police) 26"(military). I would use steel weaver style bases from Leupold with Burris Signature Zee rings and a Leupold 3.5-10X40 Tactical Vari-X III with Butler Creek Flip covers. Mind you this would be my choice in your $500-$1000 range. Given unlimited funds I would probably make different choices. Oh, I'm sorry this one should come in close to $1000 complete.
Link Posted: 3/20/2001 11:33:04 AM EDT
I'd take the National Match Springfield Armory M1A1 - I like semi-auto sniper rifles, and with the M1A1, you have parts/mags availability out the wazoo. EricTheHun
Link Posted: 3/20/2001 12:47:37 PM EDT
Given unlimited funds, I would go with an Accuracy International AWM in .300 Win Mag. with a fluited barrel, the same one used by the German army. But that's just my dream gun. My next choice (and the one I am probably going to buy) would be a Remington 700 VS in 7.62 NATO.
Link Posted: 3/20/2001 1:51:54 PM EDT
Rem 700 I have a VS in 308. It shoots quarters at 100yds and they make fine necklaces. [sniper]
Link Posted: 3/20/2001 3:00:37 PM EDT
I just shot my brand new Steyr SBS 26" HB tactical with a Vari-X3 Long Range scope this past weekend. All I can say is... DAMNnnnn! After getting it sighted in, my groups looked like four leaf clovers at 100yards. Measuring from the centers thats about .5". Thats with no prep or customizing, using 168 gr. Black Hills Match grade ammo. I am not a sniper and I don't have years of practice with bolt actions. This is actually my first bolt gun. Since this is AR-15.com, take a guess at what kind of rifles that I usually shoot. If you want an accurate rifle that is ready to go out of the box definately get a Steyr. The SBS is preferable since you can use just a wide variety of A-bolt mounts and rings. The precision European scope systems are bucks. I have gotten similar results with a friends Rem 700 Bull Barrel Varminter/ 3-15x scope but that rifle was fully customized/accurized and SEVERAL pounds heavier. I am sure that you have seen all of the Dateline type reports of the possible dangers of the Rem 700 saftey. Doing any trigger work or modifications should be done by a professional. If you love to modify or customize your guns, go with a Rem 700 Varminter. I really liked shooting the Varminter, the recoil is a little stiffer due to the rigid stock. I still like the Steyr factory set two stage trigger better, it's just my personal preference.
Link Posted: 3/20/2001 3:07:51 PM EDT
I like a few and I have a winchester Model 70 Heavy Varmint 223. I have a cheap scope on it. Going to get a Leupole soon. At 200 yards in a bench best group was 1.5 inch. I like the Rem 40x in 308. I was looking at the styr also. M1a is always a good choice. Garand that is made to NM standards in 30-06 or 308 is also a good choice. Custom Ar is also a good choice. I do have to say most of us wont and cant shoot at 800-1000 yards. If you get a good tight group at 400 yards you are doing well. Ammo is also important but shooter plays a big role in accuracy also.
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 10:52:01 PM EDT
Rem. 700 PSS in .223 . . . The trick in shooting accurately with this gun is to custom load 69 gr. Match King Sierra BTHP or similar. The gun is chambered for a long bullet, and you need to get the bullet up to the lands. Custom loading for this gun produces 100 yd. groups in the mid .3's MOA. But ya gotta clean it every five shots, and let it cool off a bit. Varmint Al's Reloading Page can show you how to custom load for a "sniper/bench/varmint" rifle. [url]http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/arelo.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 11:46:48 PM EDT
Off the shelf? No contest. An Accuracy International AWP in .308. Badger Ordinance base and rings. US Optics SN3 scope.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 2:13:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sniper_762x51: And Remingtons have extractor problems.
View Quote
I was completely unaware of such problems. I know that in the gun mags writers are harsh on them for not having "claw" type extractors and controled feeding. I have owned and shot several 700's and for the most part I'd say they are a great gun for the money. I've never had any problems with extraction or feeding with any, thats not to say it won't happen tommarow. I'm suprised no one has mentioned the Winchester model 70. It to is a great and accurate rifle. If you're going to purchase a long range rifle don't skimp on optics, buy the best you can afford. It sucks that good scopes cost more than a decent rifle. If you plan to build your own great aftermarket barrels are avaliable from Hart, Schillen and the like. Good shooting[sniper]
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 4:47:27 AM EDT
I also vote for the Remington 700 PSS in .308 with 26” barrel. I researched this for a while before making my purchase and to summarize it was stated that the Remington 700 was the best and most accurate rifle for the money (out of the box).
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 6:26:02 AM EDT
Interesting topic. Why do some of you choose the .308 over the .300 Winmag? Won't you get more accuracy at longer distances with the .300?
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:10:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/28/2001 8:10:03 AM EDT by M4Madness]
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