school counselor VS my son re: gun safety

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - school counselor VS my son re: gun safety

Posted: 4/24/2002 11:32:32 PM EDT

I'm heading to the school tomorrow to have a discussion with the principal and counselor regarding this issue and would like input from the board.

My fifth grade son comes home today and tells me that the school counselor had a talk with his class re: gun safety today. I was properly prepared for him to tell me the PC stuff that was doled out...

There were four things that stuck in my craw:
(what's a craw?)

1. The oral instructions and handout the children were given were clear - there is only one correct response to seeing a gun - RUN IN TERROR!!!! No mention of safely handling weapons with adult supervision. The general idea that guns are bad was conveyed.

2. The topic of hunting was mentioned. The couselor mentioned that some families hunt, and some don't. She made a point of telling the children that her family doesn't hunt. Total bullshit to offer that little tidbit of unwanted information. It implies, not so subtly, that her family's position of being non-hunters is superior to families that hunt.

3. Asked the children how many interior walls at the school they thought a bullet could go through. My son raised his hand and said that it would depend on what type of cartridge was being used (I am proud of my little man [:D]). The couselor said no, that was not the correct answer. The answer is **28**. Twenty eight walls. Pissed that she dismissed his correct answer.

4. Pissed that she is so unknowledgable that she is teaching "28 walls".

Another testament to her lack of firearms knowledge was her repeated substitution of the work "cartridge" with the word "bullet".

I would like for the couselor to go in front of his class, make sure that the students know that it is just fine to hunt (we know that a hunting family is prefferable, but I won't push my luck!), and also make a statement admitting that my son's answer was correct - that "28 walls" is dependent on some factors.

Would you want them teaching your kids that water boils at 80 deg F ???

PLEASE GIVE ME SOME INPUT!!!

[:(!]

Tate

Posted: 4/24/2002 11:43:11 PM EDT

[#1]

Thank you for not taking this sitting down.

Posted: 4/24/2002 11:48:50 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Thank you for not taking this sitting down.

View Quote

OMG... I actually agree with BOG on something. [:D]

Good work Tate. Keep up the fight! I hope I'm ready when my son gets the "lesson".

BTW... good work with the "depends on..." answer. He almost had to get that truth from a parent.

Posted: 4/24/2002 11:50:54 PM EDT

[#3]

Tate,

A craw is a muscular ball in the throat of some birds for crushing seed husks before they go on to the digestive system.

1) You're never going to be able to get anyone involved with a school administration to say publicly that there is ever a proper time for a child to touch a firearm. Even in Texas. Sorry.

2) I'm not sure how much luck you're going to have getting the principal and couselor to admit that there was anything improper in the counselor dropping the word that her family doesn't hunt. She's going to go into liberal no-logic mode and say that her main point was that some hunt and some don't, and saying her family doesn't was not an editorial comment -when it plainly was- but just an attempt at giving an example of a possible outcome. Sorry.

3) Zack's got a good head on him. This one should be a no-brainer. "28 walls?" That's flat out ridiculous. She should at least apologize to your boy in front of the same class that she downed him in front of, if not explain that he was right and she had a wicked case of cranio-rectal insertion.

Can you print out some ballistics tables showing feet per second muzzle velocities? I don't know where else you could get anything that an administrator-type could look at and say, "Oh yeah, I guess a .338 Lapua Mag would penetrate a few more walls than a .22 LR."

4) Lack of knowledge doesn't disqualify someone from counseling others. It's all about [b]self-esteem[/b]!

Good luck, partner.

Posted: 4/24/2002 11:54:38 PM EDT

[#4]

3. Asked the children how many interior walls at the school they thought a bullet could go through. My son raised his hand and said that it would depend on what type of cartridge was being used (I am proud of my little man ). The couselor said no, that was not the correct answer. The answer is **28**. Twenty eight walls. Pissed that she dismissed his correct answer.

View Quote

ummm...I think that 28 is a little low...I mean think about it, a .50 BMG vs. corrogated cardboard=one hell of a lot of "walls"

Posted: 4/25/2002 12:18:08 AM EDT

[#5]

I think you should teach your kid to repeat the phrase, "that counselor is full of shit." Then tell him that when he's at school, he should repeat it to his friends and explain why. [:D]

Posted: 4/25/2002 12:18:22 AM EDT

[#6]

Would you want them teaching your kids that water boils at 80 deg F ???
Tate

View Quote

Yes, if they mentioned that you have to lower the pressure within the control volume that the water is in as well.

Alright, aside from my smart-assed remark I agree 100% with the other members. Don't let this one slide!

Jim

Posted: 4/25/2002 12:59:44 AM EDT

[#7]

GRRRRRRRRRR!!! Just remembered that today is a "snow day" - tomorrow is too. I will go to the school anyway to see if the staff is there. I assure you I will keep the board informed.

There might be some hope - I've had an extensive conversation with the vice-principle. He's a nice guy - and a hunter.

Tate

Posted: 4/25/2002 1:40:15 AM EDT

[#8]

You could make a handout for your son's classmates. Objective (withhold pro-hunting comments), fair, and ballistically accurate.

Offer it to the teacher. If she refuses to hand it out, offer it to the vice-principal or principal. If they refuse, and you want to take things further, your son can hand it out, unless that would get him in unwanted trouble.

Posted: 4/25/2002 3:43:10 AM EDT

[#9]

I'd go give the school a piece of your mind. Quietly of course.

Then I'd make sure your son is taught gun safety properly, from the NRA, or some other qualified instructor. Take him shooting / hunting with you?

You might explain to him that politics sometimes dictates what is taught or not taught in school, even though doing that runs counter to the pure quest for knowledge.

Usually when people are taught properly, then taken shooting, see that there are normal people out there on the range, they get used to safely handling firearms, the mistique of guns melts away.

Posted: 4/25/2002 3:49:41 AM EDT

[#10]

Tate, there's a local teacher that can be a positive resource for you. His name's Ferris Bavoucett. He teaches full time at a local middle school but he can be reached through the Dallas Safari Club office at 972-980-9800.

Ferris is a great communicator. He coordinates outdoor/hunting/shooting activities at several Dallas/Fort Worth area school districts. He's responsible for programs that do things like award hunting trips to Africa for families of students that write winning esays on wildlife management.

Ferris is highly recommended by everyone who has contact with him. He can at least give you good advice.

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:10:01 AM EDT

[#11]

Pretty soon they'll have the kids sign printed "protest postcards", to be sent to "the leaders of the world" and "demand peace" and "reasonable gun control" and similar bullshit.

Essays will be on topics like "Why nobody needs a gun" and "share the wealth!" with grades being awarded for the most "progressive" texts.

History will be about great socialist achievments, sunday school will teach that christianity is nothing but an archaic attempt of communism, George Washington was fighting theevil imperialists of Britain and wanted the US to be socialist, the US Constitution was really progresive back then, but now it's time for some more civilized and progressive...

you get the picture.....

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:31:15 AM EDT

[#12]

Don't let it slide, but don't give them an excuse to ignore you by coming across as the "angry gun nut dad", either.

1) Start off by praising the school for wanting to teach about firearms safety. (That is a worthwhile subject for children to learn, isn't it?)

2) Ask what credentials, if any, the school counselor has to be teaching firearms safety. Bureaucrats love credentials.

3) Point out, very specifically, the factual errors made, and have the correct information (with references) handy to back yourself up. Ask what sources the counselor had for her information.

4) Don't expect an apology or any admission of having made a mistake. Just work on getting the correct info to the students.

Good luck!

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:31:54 AM EDT

[#13]

Hey, why don't you print up a handy little pamphlet that contains TRUTHFUL information about the issue for the students, and have your son pass them around to every one of his classmates?

Of course, it would state that while no child should handle a gun without adult supervision, and not just ANY adult, but only one who is authorized by you, the parents, to do provide such supervision, but it would also state that recreational shooting, including hunting, is an activity enjoyed by many millions of people on a regular basis.

As for walls...between zero and a hundred would be a better statement. .22 ratshot capsules with no. 12 shot won't penetrate drywall at more than a few yard's range, but a .50BMG is good against filled cinder block. As we know.

A special little letter should be sent directly to the counselor, hand delivered by your boy. It would be a deluxe version of the pamphlet now being handed out.

Hey, if you're really into doing it, maybe you could see about getting together with some other gun owning parents and setting up an after school shooting expedition for the kids who are interested and can get parental approval. It'd be a HUGE plus if you can get any teachers or school administrators to come, too.

These days in the anti-gun climate you find in schools, nothing is more important than factual data and good public relations. We can make enthusiastic and safe shooters of many of these kids, yet!

CJ

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:43:19 AM EDT

[#14]

Besides, or in addition to, the information provided already, make sure to ask the administration what are the qualifications and accreditation the counselor had obtained in order to present this material.

Is it a 'sanctioned' course of instruction? Do the children/parents have the right to to refuse that their children be instructed in this material...especially since its accuracy is in question? Will they allow "Eddie Eagle" present a similar course? And all those other similar questions.

Hell, they have to be qualified to teach all the other 'PC' courses/crap they teach, they should also have some type of accreditation to teach gun safety.

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:45:27 AM EDT

[#15]

I would print up a piece of paper with this info on it when you go in:

(1) When you see a school counselor, RUN IN TERROR!!!

(2) Some counselor's have families, but most don't. Pond scum, pure and simple.

(3) How many points can a counselor score on an IQ test? 28!

(4) Did I mention that school counselors are dumbass pond scum with no spine and tiny little balls?

Sad, funny, but true. Sorry to hear that the schools still have morons in charge.

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:55:10 AM EDT

[#16]

Tate, invite this counselor to the range for some real "hands on" experience. With as many members as we have in this area, I think we could dispel what misconceptions, and ideas about guns, and show her that our children, as well as adults take safety very seriously.

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:02:51 AM EDT

[#17]

Call the NRA and get the Eddie Eagle information that pertains to your sons age group. Show it to the principal and tell him that if his teachers are going to attempt to teach gun safety then they should be using accredited and uniform teaching materials such as this and not spouting off misinformation about a subject they know nothing about.

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:06:40 AM EDT

[#18]

Contact Heidi Cifelli, program manager,at 800-231-0752 or 703-267-1574

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:12:15 AM EDT

[#19]

I've been so upset with the "over liberals" in our school boards, administrations, etc. The only way to get to them is at the funding level. So, I always refuse to vote for any funding issue. When I am asked way I vote the way I do, I tell them in no uncertain terms.
I believe that you can go have your meeting, but will be more disappointed than you are now!!!!! [:(!] [:(!]

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:19:05 AM EDT

[#20]

Good Luck! The superior, know-it-all teachers of today have very little going for them so they screwup the minds of America's children with B.S.

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:19:58 AM EDT

[#21]

I think it really depends on the school district. Schools have a great deal of autonomy (at least they do in MI). Therefore, they can be responsive to the concerns of parents. My wife teaches 2nd grade. I can say with absolute certainty that her school listens to what parents have to say. I know that this isn't always the case, but this counselor wouldn't have a job for long in her school.

I am going to echo some of the suggestions already made. I would tell them that it is good that they are teaching gun safety, but that you are concerned that false information and opinions (re: hunting) were being given. I would also suggest that the course be taught by someone that actually knows something about firearms. You could volunteer to come in and teach it. If not, the Eddie Eagle course is excellent and more schools around where I live are picking it up.

If the principal ignore this, you can always talk to the superintendant or the school board. Better yet, you could run for the school board.

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:22:44 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Don't let it slide, but don't give them an excuse to ignore you by coming across as the "angry gun nut dad", either.

1) [red]Start off by praising the school for wanting to teach about firearms safety.[/red] (That is a worthwhile subject for children to learn, isn't it?)

2) [red]Ask what credentials, if any, the school counselor has to be teaching firearms safety. Bureaucrats love credentials.[/red]
[i]{Ooooooooo! very nice!!}[/i]

3) Point out, very specifically, the factual errors made, and have the correct information (with references) handy to back yourself up. [red]Ask what sources the counselor had for her information.[/red]

4) Don't expect an apology or any admission of having made a mistake. [red]Just work on getting the correct info to the students.[/red]

Good luck!

View Quote

PERFECT!! [^]

Do all of the above [b]Tate[/b].

In addition, request a follow-up "Firearm Safety" session for all the kids with a QUALIFIED firearm safety instructor (but NOT a fat female philly cop!!).

Suggest the [b] [url=http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/]Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program[/url][/b] - Bring some brochures of printouts from their website to your meeting with the principal and counselor.

Be nonconfrontational - [b]focus on getting [u]qualified[/u] firearms safety programs into the school[/b], NOT on attacking the counselor.

Say it's "for the children".

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:24:44 AM EDT

[#23]

Contact Heidi Cifelli, program manager,at 800-231-0752 or 703-267-1574

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:40:18 AM EDT

[#24]

As many others have already stated, bring in some info on the "Eddie Eagle" program. Also, point out to them that NRA is the pre-eminent gun safety organization in the country. Thousands of police officers are trained in gun safety and marksmanship every year by NRA trained and certified instructors. Furthermore, the NRA has conducted the Eddie Eagle program in many schools around the country already. Maybe if you could get ahold of a list of some of those schools you could provide your son's school principle with a list of references to talk to about their experience with the program. Good Luck. Thanks for being vigilant.

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:52:14 AM EDT

[#25]

Let me first say I'm with all the other guys ... don't take it sitting down. My wife and I are about to have our first and there's no way I'd let some liberal influenced counseler get away with "teaching" my child such obviously untrue and biased information.

I'm a life member of the NRA and believe strongly in the Eddie Eagle program .. it's basic principles were exactly what I was taught as a child. But beware you need to have more than an NRA card in your debate box - maybe some ballistic test info (or contact info) from the FBI or independent source you could quickly point to.

Even though the Eddie Eagle program is exemplary some liberal minds will immediately shutdown if you mention the NRA.

Best of Luck and Keep up the Good Fight!

Ryan

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:56:49 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Even though the Eddie Eagle program is exemplary some liberal minds will immediately shutdown if you mention the NRA.

View Quote

Liberal minds shut down before they even get out of bed in the morning. [;)]

Posted: 4/25/2002 7:31:21 AM EDT

[#27]

How do you help your children resist a liberal teacher/counselor/administrator? Simple—Move somewhere else. Saying that the schools are full of liberal teachers is like saying the computer industry is filled with liberals. While there are liberals in schools, it totally depends on where where you are. I would guess that they tend to gravitate towards urban and large suburban schools. I look back at some of the teachers I had, or that I currently know, and laugh because they are about as liberal as Ronald Reagan.

Schools are reflective of their community. A liberal principal and staff will not last long in a conservative community. Additionally, a liberal teacher was a liberal before they went into teaching. The same is true for conservatives. There is not some “liberal” class they take in college.

Posted: 4/25/2002 7:49:42 AM EDT

[#28]

Saying that the schools are full of liberal teachers is like saying the computer industry is filled with liberals.

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Well... to that I'd have to say look elsewhere in the computer industry. In the DOD portion of that industry you won't find nearly as many liberals.

As to moving, I have advocated giving up on CA ... but we can't give up everywhere. btw - I've seriously reconsidered giving up on CA.

Ryan

Posted: 4/25/2002 9:09:18 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
1. The oral instructions and handout the children were given were clear - there is only one correct response to seeing a gun - RUN IN TERROR!!!!

View Quote

You know, what bugs me the most about the counselor's ranting is this statement. Eddie Eagle makes it quite clear: do not run away, walk away quietly while facing the moronic playmate with the gun. The reason is simple: moronic playmates with guns get excited when someone runs away, and they tend to shoot that someone in the back.

So walk, keep an eye on the idiot, and tell an adult. . . .

Posted: 4/25/2002 12:11:05 PM EDT

[#30]

How to deal with school officials.

1) Arrange a meeting with them.
2) Wear a suit/business attire
3) Understand that no matter the knowledge or qualifications of the mother, they will address all the comments to, and will only listen to, the father/male figure.
4) Bring a witness, an adult male, also in a suit. His job is to take notes. He should be identified as your "advisor". He should be well groomed and sharp enough to be mistaken for a lawyer. Even better, bring a 2nd "Advisor".
5) The teachers will utilize "proof by assertion". I.e. I'm a teacher, therefore what I say is correct. Even when they are wrong.
6) Question their qualifications. Ask to see and keep copies of their proof of qualifications, as well as copies of all relevant policies.
7) Insist on getting everyone's full name and title and role. An employee number would be good to get as well.
8) Document everything.
9) Remember that teachers aren't as knowledgeable as they think they are.
10) Know that teachers and principals won't take the child's mother seriously. Mom's can expect a pat on the head and an admonition to "not worry your pretty little head".
11) Single parents should borrow whatever suitable male acquaintances as required to fill the roles of father figure and advisor.

It sucks, but thats the reality.

Posted: 4/25/2002 2:09:08 PM EDT

[#31]

I hate to bring this up but not ALL school counselors are left wing liberals. Our school counselor uses the NRA Eddie Eagle materials and tells the kids he is a shooter and hunter. Basically a gun is a tool like a car one can both enjoy or misuse-personal responsibility completely. He has taught some young people to shoot at the range at parents request and tells them NOT to touch a gun if found in yard as he doesnt throw any of his around like that so probably need adult to get it. He also has actively worked for Concealed Carry in our state,shoots AR15 and some DCM but his church/school keeps him to busy to compete like he wants too. By the way he was asked by school board member to teach his son to shoot and loaned him his first deer rifle to hunt with! Maybe he can balance out your idiot!!!!! Also a member for many years of NRA.

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:20:44 PM EDT

[#32]

I promise I will not come across as "angry gun nut dad" (even though I am) - catch more flies with honey. [;)]

I will utilize the phone numbers provided.

Many, many thanks.

Tate

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:31:14 PM EDT

[#33]

Of course, most liberals will RUN IN TERROR at the mere mention of the NRA. [:)]

Sounds like good advice so far. Give 'em hell Tate! Okay, more like give them the facts, but you know what I mean. Perhaps also try to encourage the voucher/private school system over public education?

Posted: 4/25/2002 5:38:31 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
How do you help your children resist a liberal teacher/counselor/administrator? Simple—Move somewhere else. Saying that the schools are full of liberal teachers is like saying the computer industry is filled with liberals. While there are liberals in schools, it totally depends on where where you are. I would guess that they tend to gravitate towards urban and large suburban schools. I look back at some of the teachers I had, or that I currently know, and laugh because they are about as liberal as Ronald Reagan.

Schools are reflective of their community. A liberal principal and staff will not last long in a conservative community. Additionally, a liberal teacher was a liberal before they went into teaching. The same is true for conservatives. There is not some “liberal” class they take in college.

View Quote

There may be some less liberal schools, but living in a conservative area doesn't mean the school staff will be conservative. I think that liberal types are drawn to those professions, regardless of location.

My wife teaches in public school, and jumps all over her coworkers for spreading tripe like this. We've tried to educate them, and invited many to go shooting. So far only two have joined us on the range.

A final note, I've been designing schools for nearly 10 years now. Most classroom walls are CMU, usually 8" thick, sometimes only 6" thick. I've never tried it, but I doubt any concealable gun could even penetrate one of these walls.

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:05:34 PM EDT

[#35]

Tate,

Good advice from all. Go to school and present your case. Then, as you leave, provide them with printed copies of this thread. This goes beyond the problem you stated. IMHO...

1. Most schools are nothing more than supervised "baby sitting" services. Expectations are lowered to protect our dear ones "sense of self" and "self esteem".
2. Most school systems, at least here in Utah are run by ladder climbing, slef-absorbed,non-teaching administrators trying to make a name for themselves any way they can. We don't like the palmer method so we'll abondon it, try plan X and then go back to the palmer method 4 years later (after the administrator has been promoted). The teachers unions don't help much either by threateniung to strike for more pay. More money is then pumped into the school system but not to pay for new textbooks or supplies but to buy administrators $500 leather office chairs.
3. What used to be special ed students have been mainstreamed into normal classrooms so we don't "hurt their feelings" or discriminate against them. My friend had three special ed students in her second grade class. One was okay. One would throw a 15 minute temper tantrum at the drop of a hat and the other would wig out and stab people with his pencil. These two students cause quite a daily disruption for the other 24 students. Is it any wonder that nobody is learning anything? The ironic thing about this is that somebody will have to get hurt before pencil boy is removed from the class.
4. Bullshit subjects being taught don't help matters either. My friend had to give up 30 minutes of class time each week to have some liberal with lots of grant money come in and teach her 2nd graders about relationships, getting along, and sensitivity using teaching materials and visual aids designed for 7th graders.

I better stop now while my blood pressure is only boiling......

Posted: 4/25/2002 6:24:06 PM EDT

[#36]

Your not in the Houston area are you ??

DAMN! What is this state coming too! [v]

Sounds like some crap theyd pull in Austin!

A teacher propagting ignorance!!

How ironic!!!

edited to add: the Eddie Eagle program is a great idea!

Posted: 4/25/2002 7:09:08 PM EDT

[#37]

Located in Little Elm - north of Dallas, east of Denton.

It DOES sound like something theyd pull in Austin.

If I was rich, he wouldn't be in publik skul.

BUT then my son's friends wouldn't be exposed to him - and they'd be worse off for it!

Tate

Posted: 4/25/2002 8:38:10 PM EDT

[#38]

hey Hey HEY! There _ARE_ some good guys in the Austin area. We DO have our little enclaves of sanity (although they are surrounded by the evil left)

-Gloftoe
(at least one of the good guys in Austin)

Posted: 4/27/2002 12:47:53 AM EDT

[#39]

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(B) A well funded and concerted campaign to add credence to the calls for
eliminating the 2nd amendment entirely via constitutional amendment.

__________________________

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Posted: 4/27/2002 1:02:53 AM EDT

[#40]

Tate, the Dallas area is BARELY a part of Texas anymore. Something about that city apparently makes its residents afraid to acknowledge their hisotry & independence. If Dallasites could somehow merge w/ NYC they would ditch this state in heartbeat. Dallas has a HUGE 2nd city complex. In fact, it has already been taken over as Texas' 2nd largest city by San Antonio, yet the Dallasites continue to foster the myth of their... Awww man, enough of Dallas. Screw them.

Posted: 4/27/2002 1:38:37 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
hey Hey HEY! There _ARE_ some good guys in the Austin area. We DO have our little enclaves of sanity (although they are surrounded by the evil left)

-Gloftoe
(at least one of the good guys in Austin)

View Quote

Which side of Austin?

Posted: 4/27/2002 4:56:15 AM EDT

[#42]

The mainstreamed kids thing is not the teacher's fault.
The feds passed "IDEA". That law means that the kids get to do whatever they want when ever they want. As long as they have some problem, even if it is ADD or ADHD, they cannot be punished in any way for anything.
The parents get whatever they want, so if their parent wants mainstreamed and access to sharp pencils and sitting in the middle of the kids they get to 1) request it, 2) informally request it with a draft plan, 3) formally submit a plan, 4) have a formal plan hearing, and 5) then sue in federal court, which will order what the parents want until the hearing in a year or two.

Posted: 5/2/2002 4:44:17 PM EDT

[#43]

Haven't heard back from Ferris Bavoucett yet. Decided to get all of my ducks in a row before I even meet with school officials. Will leave another message for him tomorrow.

Posted: 5/2/2002 5:36:08 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Haven't heard back from Ferris Bavoucett yet. Decided to get all of my ducks in a row before I even meet with school officials. Will leave another message for him tomorrow.

View Quote

I'll contact the Dallas Safari Club office tomorrow morning and make sure he got the message.