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Posted: 1/8/2005 12:52:27 PM EDT
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 12:54:57 PM EDT
It depends on a light, a bring on a pistol or similar at night can do a good job of blinding the other person.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 12:56:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



not when used properly.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 12:59:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 20iner:
not when used properly.



+1  (I mean, come on)
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:00:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:01:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?



I can see it inside a house, but if you go outside in a open area with a light and i see it your toast.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:01:55 PM EDT
I wouldnt use white light in an outside area if I had the option of night vision - especially if combined with an IR laser - ie AN/PVS-14 cowitnessed with Aimpoint and PEQ-2. I can see advantages in an urban setting to momentarily light up a room or blind an enemy - but I don't picture anyone using a flashlight in the woods and NOT getting their ass shot. Slicing the pie is one thing - being surrounding by acres of land and not knowing who or what is where........thats just assinine...........I'd stick with night vision if in a rural setting.  I like my surefire light but it stays in my hand - not stuck to my gun.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:02:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 1:03:36 PM EDT by cyanide]
You don't need a light ---

you just need to be able to see your sights.

This lights on guns shit is stupid ................ but here to stay.

Now a few exceptions may exist -------- but they are few.
Military --clearing caves comes to mind.
But they have better for that anyway.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:04:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?



I can see it inside a house, but if you go outside in a open area with a light and i see it your toast.



Not to insult, but you didn't answer his question.

Have you ever taken any low-light shooting courses?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:06:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By J_Smith:
I wouldnt use white light in an outside area if I had the option of night vision - especially if combined with an IR laser - ie AN/PVS-14 cowitnessed with Aimpoint and PEQ-2. I can see advantages in an urban setting to momentarily light up a room or blind an enemy - but I don't picture anyone using a flashlight in the woods and NOT getting their ass shot. Slicing the pie is one thing - being surrounding by acres of land and not knowing who or what is where........thats just assinine...........I'd stick with night vision if in a rural setting.  I like my surefire light but it stays in my hand - not stuck to my gun.



I think target ID is your primary concern when using a weapon light. In civilian applications you must know who you are shooting at and if they are a threat. I agree they are a bad idea out in the woods unless you're very close to your target.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:07:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR-Joe:

I think target ID is your primary concern when using a weapon light. In civilian applications you must know who you are shooting at and if they are a threat. I agree they are a bad idea out in the woods unless you're very close to your target.



+1

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:09:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 1:11:22 PM EDT by tommytrauma]

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?



I can see it inside a house, but if you go outside in a open area with a light and i see it your toast.



Have you ever taken a low light shooting course?

A weapon light is an excellent tool, assuming you know how to use it properly. I've shot in low light situations, both with and without a weapon mounted light. Are you basing your opinions on any experience?

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:20:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?



I can see it inside a house, but if you go outside in a open area with a light and i see it your toast.



Have you ever taken a low light shooting course?

A weapon light is an excellent tool, assuming you know how to use it properly. I've shot in low light situations, both with and without a weapon mounted light. Are you basing your opinions on any experience?




no i haven't taken a low light shooting course, but i would amagine thats dealing with indoors or urban areas.

so what would be the advantage of a light sneak up on the guy than blast him with the light?

If your using a CCO you can see your red dot, i really dont see why you would ever want light showing your position???
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:21:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 1:25:59 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:22:15 PM EDT
Where is the other thread?

Bob
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:27:24 PM EDT
I would suggest both. NV to determine threat and count. Light to illuminate upon closer proximity of threat.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:28:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?



I can see it inside a house, but if you go outside in a open area with a light and i see it your toast.



Poacher
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:34:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?



I can see it inside a house, but if you go outside in a open area with a light and i see it your toast.



Have you ever taken a low light shooting course?

A weapon light is an excellent tool, assuming you know how to use it properly. I've shot in low light situations, both with and without a weapon mounted light. Are you basing your opinions on any experience?




no i haven't taken a low light shooting course, but i would amagine thats dealing with indoors or urban areas.

so what would be the advantage of a light sneak up on the guy than blast him with the light?

If your using a CCO you can see your red dot, i really dont see why you would ever want light showing your position???



If you're out in the woods, you can't really just shoot any vaguely man shaped movemet that you see. You still need to identify your target before you shoot at it. It's also easier to hit a target if you can see it.  Do remember that your night vision will be significantly compromised by muzzle flash. (It's one thing to read that, another to experience it. Try it for yourself.)

Any decent training in low light shooting will teach the student how to deploy the light in a tactically sound way. Just firing it up and walking around is considered poor form.

I had a very lukewarm opinion about white light on weapons until I did a night fire course at Camp Ripley. We ran a number of scenerios, both inside and outdoors, and shot each both with and without weapon lights. Now I'm a firm believer in both lights and tritium sights. You've formed a hypothosis about lights and weapons. The next thing you need to do is go out and test your hypothosis. If you don't want to take a class that includes low light shooting, then read up on it a bit, grab a cheap halogen light at wally world and go try it yourself.

If I sound frustrated or preachy, I'm sorry. There are just a lot of guys here who like to pontificate about tactics without ever trying out the stuff they put forth.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:42:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
You tailor your tools and your tactics for the situation you are in.  Yes a flashlight can get you killed if you possess NO other tactics or fieldcraft.


If you have to confront someone in the dark, how do you plan to visually identify what you might possibly be shooting at,  who else is around them and determine any threats if you can't SEE them.

Do you just plan on slinging rounds and hope that poacher's 10 year old kid wasnt standing 15 feet behind him?

If you're concerned about being ambushed in a situation like that, maybe you shouldnt go it alone or maybe you should be taking your time, and slowly circle the target to flush out any other threats.



And thus, Lumpy demonstrates why a person that hasn't had training in low-light situations shouldn't have "hard and fast" opinions about tactics.

Opinions without training can get you in trouble.  Spend some money on some good training.

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:43:47 PM EDT
The lights are not on 100% of the time.  So why would having a light have mattered in that situation?
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 1:58:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/8/2005 2:08:47 PM EDT by Panzerwolf]

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:

Originally Posted By tommytrauma:

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



Have you ever taken any low light shooting courses?



I can see it inside a house, but if you go outside in a open area with a light and i see it your toast.



Have you ever taken a low light shooting course?

A weapon light is an excellent tool, assuming you know how to use it properly. I've shot in low light situations, both with and without a weapon mounted light. Are you basing your opinions on any experience?




no i haven't taken a low light shooting course, but i would amagine thats dealing with indoors or urban areas.

so what would be the advantage of a light sneak up on the guy than blast him with the light?

If your using a CCO you can see your red dot, i really dont see why you would ever want light showing your position???



If you're out in the woods, you can't really just shoot any vaguely man shaped movemet that you see. You still need to identify your target before you shoot at it. It's also easier to hit a target if you can see it.  Do remember that your night vision will be significantly compromised by muzzle flash. (It's one thing to read that, another to experience it. Try it for yourself.)

Any decent training in low light shooting will teach the student how to deploy the light in a tactically sound way. Just firing it up and walking around is considered poor form.

I had a very lukewarm opinion about white light on weapons until I did a night fire course at Camp Ripley. We ran a number of scenerios, both inside and outdoors, and shot each both with and without weapon lights. Now I'm a firm believer in both lights and tritium sights. You've formed a hypothosis about lights and weapons. The next thing you need to do is go out and test your hypothosis. If you don't want to take a class that includes low light shooting, then read up on it a bit, grab a cheap halogen light at wally world and go try it yourself.

If I sound frustrated or preachy, I'm sorry. There are just a lot of guys here who like to pontificate about tactics without ever trying out the stuff they put forth.



Thats NO SHIT!   There are shooters and there are collectors...

I used to think that they were worthless untill I shot a couple of low light courses of fire...I F'ing sold.  However...if you can see well enough in low light to see your target (read ambient illumination) then take the shot without lighting it up.   Use of lights is just another skill...of which a bunch of posters on this board could use a few more of...

If your worried about cost...get a streamlight m3 that will fit your rifle, pistol, and shotgun...they make a mount that will bolt on to the two long guns (or you can use the tried and true method of shooting harries with a long gun and pistol...)  It dosen't have to be fancy...it just has to work...i.e. go on and off on demand.

be diversified...
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 2:53:00 PM EDT
I can't imagine owning a self-defense firearm w/o a light. I carry a 6P wit me everyday when I carry my CCW and have one mounted to my self-defense carbines. The low/no light courses I took would not have allowed me to ID a target without a light and we were shooting outside. As mentioned earlier, it's all about tactics. If you don't have training you owe it to yoursef to get some if you carry/own a firearm for self defense. Instead of buying that Aimpoint so your rifle can look cool, spend the $$ on a carbine course.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:18:05 PM EDT
When you chase a bad guy into the woods you need a light.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:29:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mike45acp:
everyone is saying that our Arfcom friend confronting the poachers should have had a light but in my experience if you are out in the woods and in the open and you turn on a light its like saying here i am shoot me.

i figure use your night vision, stay low and use some cover.



You figger wrong.
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