Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/5/2001 8:36:39 PM EDT
i have an ar-15 receiver that i built(reweld)in 1991..my 1st one.. i have several i have built since. how can i "legally configure it ? i 1st built it as a pistol ..but it has been a 28 inched bull barrel for the past several yrs.the receiver is marked with my name ..my tdl # and my ssn#. atf technical says i have done more than enough to "mark the gun" for tracking in case of theft. my question is .... can i LEGALLY turn it back into a pistol? i recently bought a carbon 15 pistol ..and am very disappointed.. so i thought about building my pistol again .. any input and insights greatly appreciated john
Link Posted: 10/5/2001 8:49:28 PM EDT
If you actually first built it into a pistol (without ever attaching a buttstock before completing it), then it's a pre-ban pistol now and forever. Even with a long barrel and buttstock, it was technically just a pistol built into a rifle conifguration (like adding a long barrel and buttstock to a 1911 .45). Proving it in court if you ever have to might be another matter, but that's the way the law reads.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 8:38:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2001 8:37:25 AM EDT by Ekie]
5845(c) "Rifle-The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifle bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge." I maintain that said weapon is a rifle, as it meets the definition of a rifle.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:29:07 AM EDT
Ekie... we've been over this one before.
From Revenue Ruling 61-203: Conversely, where one of the above described pistols has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, it is held not to be a "firearm," within the definition of 5848(1) of the Act, even though such weapon has an attached or attachable shoulder stock. With the shoulder stock attached such weapon is a rifle. When the shoulder stock is detached, such weapon is a pistol, and is deemed not to have been made from a rifle.
View Quote
The key feature is that, while the firearm is considered to be a rifle while the long barrel and stock are attached, reverting it to a pistol is not illegal, because it was not [b]originally[/b] a rifle.
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 11:41:02 AM EDT
thanx circuits for the reply... i will still wait on the atf tech guy..but he basically said the same thing thursday..he was gonna check and make sure, but basically it was a pistol before the ban.. and if i understand him correctly can remain a pistol...or a rifle ..or a pistol : ) john
Link Posted: 10/6/2001 10:36:41 PM EDT
Yes we have gone through this before and you brought up the "once a pistol always a pistol" legal argument. Glad to see you post something to support it. I do not have a copy of Rev Ruling 61-203, but I do see two problems with it. First of it references 5848 which has to do with a different subject matter, as in nothing to do with the definition of a firearm, so the ruling is nonsense, or it contains a typo. Even discounting this, it clearly states above described pistols". Is the rifle that is the subject of this discussion one of the "above described pistols"?
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 12:49:42 AM EDT
Ekie: I'm willing to retract my "once a pistol, always a pistol" definition, because the ATF clearly defines, in that revenue ruling, that a pistol, when configured as a rifle, is considered a rifle. However, the operative clause is still that a pistol, having been built upon a receiver which was (originally) a pistol, is legal, whereas a pistol configuration built from a receiver originally a rifle is an SBR, while a pistol configuration built from a receiver originally a pistol is excepted from the quoted ordnance. The effect is still the same, except that a rifle built from a pistol reciever is temporarily considered a rifle, while built into a rifle configuration. The revenue ruling quoted is from the bardwell archives at CMU.edu, and addresses the the convesion of Luger artillery model pistols to rifles, when the stock is attached, but I believe is still relevant, per the quoted passage, when considering rifles built from pistol receivers, and switching back and forth. For what it's worth, my interpretation and quote are consistent with the ATF rulings in the Thompson/Center decision, where it was ruled that possession of a Thompson/Center pistol with a shoulder stock was not considered to be constructive possession of a short barrel rifle, so long as a 16" or longer barrel for said pistol was also available. In my research, the application of constructive possession has applied only where there is no legal use for the parts present, and at least one illegal use for the combination of parts held by an individual.
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 6:18:59 PM EDT
Seems to me that it would not be a violation of 18 USC section 922(v) if he re configured the rifle into a semiautomatic assault pistol but I am concerned with the following quoted from an ATF letter: "26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA), defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and pay the applicable $200 making tax."
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 6:19:49 PM EDT
I would not take the leap that the following ruling covers the rifle in question in that it is specific to certain named hand guns. "Revenue Ruling 61-203 A hand gun of the Luger or semi-automatic Mauser type, as well as the Fiala Arms and Equipment Company, Inc., .22 caliber pistol, with a barrel of less than 16 inches in length is a "firearm," if it has an attached or attachable shoulder stock. However, where a hand gun of this type has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, it is not a "firearm" even though such weapon has an attached or attachable shoulder stock. Advice has been requested, whether semi-automatic hand guns, such as Luger and Mauser pistols, and single shot .22 caliber pistols made by the Fiala Arms and Equipment Company, Inc., with attached or attachable shoulder stocks are "firearms" as defined in section 5848(1) of the National Firearms Act (Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954). Basically such types of weapons were originally designed as pistols. However, they are also designed to function as rifles which shoulder stocks are attached. Section 5848(1) of the National Firearms Act defines the term "firearm" as follows: The term "firearm" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches, or any other weapon, except a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machine gun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within the foregoing definition. Accordingly, a handgun of the Luger or semi-automatic Mauser type, as well as the Fiala Arms and Equipment Company, Inc., .22 caliber pistol, with a barrel of less than 16 inches in length, is held to be a "firearm," as that term is defined in section 5848(1) of the Act, if such weapon has an attached or attachable shoulder stock. See also Rev. Rul. 61-45, C.B. 1961-1, 663. Conversely, where one of the above described pistols has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, it is held not to be a "firearm," within the definition of 5848(1) of the Act, even though such weapon has an attached or attachable shoulder stock. With the shoulder stock attached such weapon is a rifle. When the shoulder stock is detached, such weapon is a pistol, and is deemed not to have been made from a rifle. On the other hand, certain types of weapons are not designed to function as pistols. This category includes semi-automatic weapons with folding shoulder stocks such as the U. S. Carbine, caliber .30, model MIAI, and the Marble Game Getter Gun. These weapons were originally designed to fire from the shoulder. Therefore, any such weapon with a folding shoulder stock is held not to be a "firearm," as that term is defined in section 5848(1) of the Act, if it has either a rifled barrel of 16 inches or more in length or a combination of a rifled and smooth bore barrels of 18 inches or more in length. However, if the shoulder stock is removed from such a weapon it will be classified as a "firearm," as that terms is defined in section 5848(1) of the Act, if its overall length is less than 26 inches."
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 6:20:40 PM EDT
The following letter is much more specific in the regards of building a pistol out of a rifle: "Oct 29 1992 Dear Mr. XXXXX: This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle type receiver. 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA), defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and pay the applicable $200 making tax. If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish its authenticity. We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may be of any further assistance, please contact us. Sincerely your, (signed) Edward M. Owen, Jr. Chief, Firearms Technology Branch"
Link Posted: 10/7/2001 6:23:57 PM EDT
I do now understand your stance on this subject for the first time, thanks to you hooking me up with rev rul 61-203. The ATF could well use this same reasoning with the rifle in question. I would not advise to reconvert until I had it in writing though.
Top Top