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Posted: 10/27/2004 9:00:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:08:36 PM EST
"newest non-nuclear submarine"
well that is going to suck. man when are they going to learn, nuclear is the only way to go in that department.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:09:46 PM EST
Fuel cells? Cool.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:13:12 PM EST
hmmm, a new u-boat. terrorizing the atlantic will be a little harder this time. fucking germans.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:15:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 11:30:08 PM EST by raf]
Fuck you sierra_hombre.

The Germans are DIFFERENT. You fucking asshat. No, you're worse than an asshat, you're an assbeanie. Coverall mushroom eating fuck fag.

Nice. Check yer IM, Jojo.raf
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:16:59 PM EST
For blue water ops nuclear is the way to go, but for littoral warfare when you're not big enough to support nuclear powered vessels this type of boat sure gives an amazing bang for the buck. A Diesel-Electric boat built for stealth is a true "hole in the water".
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:18:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Fuck you sierra_hombre.

The Germans are DIFFERENT. You fucking asshat. No, you're worse than an asshat, you're an assbeanie. Coverall mushroom eating fuck fag.



different? that's an understatement. quit drinking unless you're a boston fan. if that is indeed the case, drink yourself into a coma and fucking die. hopefully you'll be shipped out of the country to wherever you came from.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:22:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 9:22:55 PM EST by fritzthecat]

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
"newest non-nuclear submarine"
well that is going to suck. man when are they going to learn, nuclear is the only way to go in that department.



Sorry, not for brown water / littoral / coastal warfare. Especially not this U212 with the new tech propulsion system that lets it cruise 3 weeks underwater. We (P-3 Orions) never had trouble finding nukes. But try to hunt down a small sub, hugging the coastline running on electrics and you better have damn good sensors and operators. Even the US Navy is going to smaller nuke subs and there is talk of building non-nukes for spec ops / littoral stuff.


Fritz
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:26:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:29:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 9:30:28 PM EST by Leisure_Shoot]

Like any tall tale, the capabilities of the U212 seem far-fetched. For starters, it is capable of being underwater for up to three consecutive weeks -- THREE WEEKS! You try holding your breathe that long!

The secret behind the U212's underwater endurance lies in its air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. Developed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft GmbH (HDW), the U212's AIP system uses a silently operating fuel cell plant. The plant, running on nine 34-kilowatt Siemens polymer electrolyte membrane (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells , allows the submarine to remain submerged for weeks at a time without surfacing, ideal for extended underwater/ low speed operations. Without a need to snorkel, the AIP system also allows the U212 to operate silently without emitting exhaust heat, reducing detection.



Non-Nuclear doesn't seem to be such a hinderance in this case...
In fact, nuclear turbines make some noise.
I'm guessing fuel cells don't
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:30:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 9:38:13 PM EST by Sturmwehr]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

The Germans would be hoisting swastikas and singing "deustchlan Uber Alles" in three seconds flat if they thought they could get away with it. They are the same as they were in 1936.



And, by the same manner of thought, Kerry would come stopping in Congress with a M16 and a bunch of Swift boat veterans claiming "THERE'S GONNA BE SOME CHANGES 'ROUND HERE!" if he could.


Or, perhaps, this is banter and sterotyping... Just like how DU would like to portray us all as former-KKK members in various militia groups trying to overtake the government whilst trying to preform genetic cleaning by elimating blacks, hispanics, and Jews.

Now, isn't that a bit of a double-standard?
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:31:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Leisure_Shoot:
In fact, nuclear turbines make some noise.
I'm guessing fuel cells don't



If they have propulsion, they do. Moving of water (whoosing of blades, for instance) generates noise.

Given good SONAR and a competent operator, they can isolate that. It's just that initial pain in the ass, then they have complete detection.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:36:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 9:36:38 PM EST by Leisure_Shoot]
What I meant was, a nuke plant has turbines and such to make power from steam generators.
A fuel cell works like a battery, I think. No moving parts.

As for propulsion, sure.... moving parts there in both designs.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:41:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:58:25 PM EST
Don't worry, the Germans can look to their Russian neighbors and feel better about it. After all, they gave us the Assault Weapon, the Space Age, and Jet Travel!
Regarding those subs, I recall the Swiss Navy will berth a couple here in San Diego for US/Swiss anti-terrorist coastal training. Belief is these types of vessels could present a thread and are great for US training as they are very, very quiet underwater.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 10:24:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Originally Posted By Leisure_Shoot:
In fact, nuclear turbines make some noise.
I'm guessing fuel cells don't



If they have propulsion, they do. Moving of water (whoosing of blades, for instance) generates noise.

Given good SONAR and a competent operator, they can isolate that. It's just that initial pain in the ass, then they have complete detection.



Yup, cavitation will always be present in a propeller-driven craft. That is why I am designing a submarine that sounds like whale humping.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 10:54:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 11:06:49 PM EST by Iceshark03]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Nope, while thier are nut jobs in the US who may well delight at the thought of genocide and ethnic cleansing, they have never had any signifigant power in the US. The German people have the blood of millions on thier hands, and rather than changing their culture to make up for it, they pretend it never happened. The average german high schooler believes that the holocaust was a lie told by Jews who wanted to destroy Germany, and that during WWII Germany was merely a victim of US and Russian treachery.



Are your comments based on personal experience or has that belief been instilled in you due to the past sufferring of someone you know/knew? I am serious. I am part German, and I was taught a lot about how Germany was before WWII but very little about their culture post WWII when I was in high school. I have never been there and find it hard to believe the majority of that nation is being brainwashed by the remnants of the nazi party. I am not challenging you on it because I know for a fact it does happen, it is just that most of what I have heard has led me to believe this was only occurring amongst the minority of their citizens today. I am curious to find out if you know this to be the norm from having spent time there yourself in the past.

ETA - Just so you know I am not trying to lay a trap and am appalled by the crimes committed against the Jewish people by the Nazis in WWII, you should know that in seventh grade I was forced to read "Night", by Elie Weisel, a horrifying account of his experiences which I have been unable to forget the details of since. I now own a copy and read it from time to time just to remind myself of what hatred can lead to and how unacceptable and unneccessary it is in the world today.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 10:56:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
Nope, while thier are nut jobs in the US who may well delight at the thought of genocide and ethnic cleansing, they have never had any signifigant power in the US. The German people have the blood of millions on thier hands, and rather than changing thier culture to make up for it, they pretend it never happened. The average german high schooler believes that the holocaust was a lie told by Jews who wanted to destroy Germany, and that during WWII Germany was merely a victim of US and Russian treachery.



You are confusing the Germans with the Japanese and even then it's not that bad.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 10:56:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 11:28:12 PM EST by Cato]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
The average german high schooler believes that the holocaust was a lie told by Jews who wanted to destroy Germany, and that during WWII Germany was merely a victim of US and Russian treachery.



I call that BS!! I live in Austria, but do have German friends- teachers as well. Most German
pupils know the facts A LOT better than the generation before or pupils elsewhere (just ask
Americans pupils about the holocaust). The problem in the EC is the growing muslim population.
In Sweden several cases are known, where teachers were afraid to tell about the holocaust
because of muslim pupils threatning them! There are new alliances forming between old Nazis,
young skinheads and muslim terrorists- all of whom hate the USA and Israel.

Back to the topic:





They mention an extra quiet propeller. For huge subs, nuclear power is still
the way to go, but for smaller ones the fuel cells have a lot to offer.
Its been tested down to 400meters and 3 weeks underwater drive (compare
that to 3 days for Diesel)- so it is made for the Atlantic/Pacific ocean.
It was never designed to fight US sea supremacy but to support small
special forces troops, like the Kommando Spezialkräfte (KSK) in peace
keeping/peace making operations and to gather information on the enemys
coast. IMHO it is the ideal sub for the age of the war on terrorism.

BTW, financially it's partly an American product- „One Equity Partners“ (OEP)
holds 75% of the shares of the Howaldtswerke – Deutsche Werft AG (HDW)
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:02:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 11:03:33 PM EST by Lightning_P38]
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:12:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 11:18:19 PM EST by Iceshark03]
I am hoping not in a concentration camp, but rather an American school, as I did. My relatives left Germany well before WWII and a couple of generations before I came to be. I have never been able to go there myself. That is why I was curious as to whether or not you had personal experiences to back up your statements.

ETA - Sorry to get off topic. [/hijack]
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 12:10:43 AM EST
Whilst true that these are vastly more capable than the Type 206As currently in service, the Germans have never stopped building and developing boats for export. Their skills are as capable as ever.

You'll note that the USN has asked the Swedes to send one of their Vastergotland class (A-19) boats to the US for a couple of years to give the ASW forces a serious challenge. Every bit as capable as the Type 212s, also with AIP. (Being backfitted to other Swedish boats too)

NTM
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:47:22 AM EST
The Krauts have been hoping to remake "Das Boot" for some time.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:59:30 AM EST
Dupe. I posted this weeks ago, but since no searching is allowed in the General Forum, you'll have to take my word on it.

Still, cool sub. We should do something like that, and have a mix of attach sub technologies.

We don't try to do everything with one type of combat ship, neither should we with one type of attach sub.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:01:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:24:08 AM EST
The only good U-Boats…





ANdy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:24:42 AM EST
The only good U-Boats…





ANdy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:02:06 AM EST

several years ago I made a trip to Austria and had the pleasure of meeting and skiing with Polish and German 14-18 year olds. They were increadably well mannered, and while they might have bought into some of Holleywoods characterization of Texas (they just could not believe that I was from Texas and did not have either horses or oil wells on my ranch), they were about as anti-nazi as I can imagine. For the most part it felt that they still apreacated the us for removing Hitler from power - and still feel shame about having it happen in the first place. (They warned me about where my cowboy boots in public, since black leather boots still has very negitive connotations).

Likewise my brother visited Austria last year and mentioned that there were open hostility between some of the older people who wanted a return of the old ways, and the population as a whole (a funeral was taking place and a number of morners were wereing a type of hat that symbolized a neo-nazi affilation. The bus driver went out of his way to splash mud on them as he drove by. The tour operater had to explain why the bus driver acted appearently irradically - basically saying that they deserved worse than a little mud on their shirts).
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:32:57 AM EST
I have a German co-worker who I work very closely with. She says the attitude in Germany re: WW2 and the Holocaust is VERY appologetic and the schools go out of their way to educate about it. The main reason Germans are minorities in a couple of their biggest cities, Berlin and Frankfurt IIRC, is their open door immigration policy. They don't want to be percieved as Nazi's so they just let anyone in. It's also helping bankrupt the country because of the drain on their welfare system.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:33:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Fuck you sierra_hombre.

The Germans are DIFFERENT. You fucking asshat. No, you're worse than an asshat, you're an assbeanie. Coverall mushroom eating fuck fag.



you've got some serious issues.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:43:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:

Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Fuck you sierra_hombre.

The Germans are DIFFERENT. You fucking asshat. No, you're worse than an asshat, you're an assbeanie. Coverall mushroom eating fuck fag.



you've got some serious issues.



I tend to agree with NSFJojo.

All too often those are the same people that, upon hearing German, automatically assume "OMG! YA NAZI! YOU'S PLANNING ON KILLEN JEWS, AIN'T YA?! YEAH, YA HITLER YOUTH!"



Listen to the song "Die Eire Von Satan" by Tool. Now, do not look up the lyrics in German or English. Listen to it and tell me what you think the song is about.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:59:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 7:00:05 AM EST by NSFJojo]

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:



you've got some serious issues.



Aren't they great?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:12:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Listen to the song "Die Eire Von Satan" by Tool. Now, do not look up the lyrics in German or English. Listen to it and tell me what you think the song is about.



Yummy
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:07:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dracster:
I have a German co-worker who I work very closely with. She says the attitude in Germany re: WW2 and the Holocaust is VERY appologetic and the schools go out of their way to educate about it. The main reason Germans are minorities in a couple of their biggest cities, Berlin and Frankfurt IIRC, is their open door immigration policy. They don't want to be percieved as Nazi's so they just let anyone in. It's also helping bankrupt the country because of the drain on their welfare system.



100% accurate. The Holocaust and 3rd Reich is the most covered subject in every politics and history class. Busloads of students are carted around Germany and Europe on mandatory visits to concentration camps. Ever been to Theresienstadt or Auschwitz? The majority of visitors at any given time is from Germany. There's a multi-million dollar Holocaust memorial under construction in Berlin, a city so broke that it can't even sustain an effective police force. Collective guilt for our atrocious deeds dominates all aspects of life here.

Everyone rallying for sensible immigration laws is labeled Nazi, showing patriotism will get you ostracized, ridiculed, labeled a Nazi. Organization trying to show that not all German soldiers in WW2 were ethnic-cleansing baby-killing warcriminals (sound familiar, wasn't there some point in recent American history as well?) are labeled Nazi.

Germans pretending it has never happened? Give me a fucking break!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:08:35 AM EST
wow.

This thread gets the 'went horribly awry' award for the week.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:14:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By NSFJojo:
Fuck you sierra_hombre.

The Germans are DIFFERENT. You fucking asshat. No, you're worse than an asshat, you're an assbeanie. Coverall mushroom eating fuck fag.



The Germans would be hoisting swastikas and singing "deustchlan Uber Alles" in three seconds flat if they thought they could get away with it. They are the same as they were in 1936.




Discriminating i see i guess you can.right? but i am a racist?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:22:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 9:23:15 AM EST by fizassist]

Originally Posted By MoparMike:
Yup, cavitation will always be present in a propeller-driven craft. That is why I am designing a submarine that sounds like's propelled by whale humping.



Fixed it for ya.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 10:55:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Herr_Luger:

Originally Posted By Dracster:
I have a German co-worker who I work very closely with. She says the attitude in Germany re: WW2 and the Holocaust is VERY appologetic and the schools go out of their way to educate about it. The main reason Germans are minorities in a couple of their biggest cities, Berlin and Frankfurt IIRC, is their open door immigration policy. They don't want to be percieved as Nazi's so they just let anyone in. It's also helping bankrupt the country because of the drain on their welfare system.



100% accurate. The Holocaust and 3rd Reich is the most covered subject in every politics and history class. Busloads of students are carted around Germany and Europe on mandatory visits to concentration camps. Ever been to Theresienstadt or Auschwitz? The majority of visitors at any given time is from Germany. There's a multi-million dollar Holocaust memorial under construction in Berlin, a city so broke that it can't even sustain an effective police force. Collective guilt for our atrocious deeds dominates all aspects of life here.

Everyone rallying for sensible immigration laws is labeled Nazi, showing patriotism will get you ostracized, ridiculed, labeled a Nazi. Organization trying to show that not all German soldiers in WW2 were ethnic-cleansing baby-killing warcriminals (sound familiar, wasn't there some point in recent American history as well?) are labeled Nazi.

Germans pretending it has never happened? Give me a fucking break!





It's a shame too. Germans are paying for what a few madmen that were abused as kids wanted to do 60 years ago.

Now, how many Germans are there alive that remember throwing Jews into gas houses 60 years ago? Maybe 200? If that? They're probably in exile too, fearing everyday that the Mossad will break down the door hauling their old ass off to prision.

And, Germans are paying "for the sins of their Grandfathers." Well, that's not necessarily so either. Even in the Waffen SS, units that committed war crimes or units that were dedicated to the holocaust nature were a small percentage. Granted, they existed, but it's not like every member of the Wehrmacht (or even the Waffen SS) was a card-carrying member of the "Auschwitz Officer's Club."

Out of the entire populous, a very small (less than 5%, I'd wager) were responsible for, or actually did commit war crimes in relation to the holocaust.



Now, those people deserve(d) to be punished. Anyone that commits genocide or an act of genocide is worthy of a firing squad themselves... But does the same army deserve that recognition?


No.
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