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Posted: 9/19/2001 6:14:56 AM EDT
a few years back, i picked up a mossberg 500 with 18 inch slugster barrel at a dirt cheap price. it's always performed well for me. shooting clays..slugs, whatever. and i didn't think too much of it. but while reading the threads the other day, i noticed the rem 870 was super highly recommended and i was wondering what some of the issues are. are there compelling reasons to upgrade for a shtf situation?
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 6:42:31 AM EDT
I just got a Mossberg 500 with a Slug barrel and a 28" shot barrel...works fine
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 6:55:55 AM EDT
I know I'm in the minority but I actually prefer the Mossbergs, especially the 590. I think it's almost a Ford/Chevy thing. Reliability, durability, ability to hang on accessories, are all comparable. Go with what you like, it's a well proven system.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 6:58:59 AM EDT
are there compelling reasons to upgrade for a shtf situation?
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Yes, you'll need Remington's all steel receiver, so your shotgun can rust properly when it gets wet [;)]
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 7:00:32 AM EDT
Unless thee are problems that I don't know about, the Mossberg is a fine gun. I have an 835 and it serves me very well. I havn't fired any of the 870's so unfortunately I can't give a comparison. The Mossberg 590 will be my next shotgun.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 7:08:46 AM EDT
Beanbagger, both are good "meat and potatos" guns. I have four 870's and one Mossberg 835. Both are well-made, functional, no nonsense shotguns. Both are in service with numerous Law Enforcement Agencies. I agree with the Ford/Chevy analogy. Pick whichever you like. I do prefer the 870...but then I grew up hunting pheasants with one.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 7:11:56 AM EDT
ok, how about different finishes? are they both avaible in a camo finish? don't have a need for it but thought it would look cool. make it stand out a bit bit from the crowd. (that's funny, using camo so you'll stand out)
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 7:14:48 AM EDT
PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG...as I have never owned a Mossberg. However, I have "heard" that a lot of Law Enforcement Agencies have been shying away from Mossbergs in the recent years because their receivers are made of aluminum (or cheaper steel than Remingtons)...and have had problems of them malfunctioning after repeated fire (heat problems). I personally love the Remingtons. Just what I have heard...not experience. As for Poodleshooters comments...rust doesn't occur instantly, so if your steel guns rust its because you are not taking care of them properly. If it's raining and you have your gun out in it, you need to clean that baby when the day is done. Period.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 7:14:59 AM EDT
The Mossberg 500 and Remington 870 are both fine guns. There's no need to upgrade, but you may need to add an 870 to your collection. [:)]
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:14:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tailgate: PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG...as I have never owned a Mossberg. However, I have "heard" that a lot of Law Enforcement Agencies have been shying away from Mossbergs in the recent years because their receivers are made of aluminum (or cheaper steel than Remingtons)...and have had problems of them malfunctioning after repeated fire (heat problems)
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Mossberg 590A1 is the only shotgun to pass military testing thats 5,000 00 buckshot with out a stoppage. This is the Shotgun that is also issued to the Navy Seals and most other military. In the 5 years that I have had mine I have never had a problem with it never a stoppage and I have shot about 6,000 throw the shotgun by now anything from skeet shooting ammo to slug it has always served me well. I have also heard a lot of good things about Remington shotgun's also.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:26:50 AM EDT
I love my Mossy Model 500. Never a problem. My step dad has a Rem. 870 that is older than dirt, he has never had any problems with it. It's your choice. You will get a good shotgun either way.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:37:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
are there compelling reasons to upgrade for a shtf situation?
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Yes, you'll need Remington's all steel receiver, so your shotgun can rust properly when it gets wet [;)]
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On my 870P, I degreased it and coated it with a layer of matte black epoxy primer, doesn't look too bad and is very rust resistant
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:38:03 AM EDT
The Remington's locking block recess is in the upper breech of the barrel. The Mossberg's locking block recess is in the aluminum reciever. If a recess is worn, the bolt will actually blow open on its own,when a shot is fired. On a Remington you just have to relace the barrel. When the recess wears on a Mossberg, the reciever is garbage.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:39:39 AM EDT
Not to get too technical, but the specific heat of aluminum is MUCH higher than that of steel. This makes aluminum one of the least conductive metals there is, so I would doubt that any mossberg malfunction is due to an over heated receiver.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 8:44:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CATM: The Remington's locking block recess is in the upper breech of the barrel. The Mossberg's locking block recess is in the aluminum reciever. If a recess is worn, the bolt will actually blow open on its own,when a shot is fired. On a Remington you just have to relace the barrel. When the recess wears on a Mossberg, the reciever is garbage.
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On my M590 the locking recess is in the breech of the steel barrel, not the receiver. Is there a gun that relies on aluminum the keep an action closed?
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:00:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By slt223: Not to get too technical, but the specific heat of aluminum is MUCH higher than that of steel. This makes aluminum one of the least conductive metals there is, so I would doubt that any mossberg malfunction is due to an over heated receiver.
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If aluminum does not conduct heat as well, doesn't that mean it will tend to heat up more?
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:09:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DonS: If aluminum does not conduct heat as well, doesn't that mean it will tend to heat up more?
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Don, you have it backwards. Aluminum conducts much better than steel. It heats up faster AND cools down faster. It also dissapates heat faster. If I had a full/semi auto that put out a lot more heat than 5 shots out of my Mossberg, would I be worried about the aluminum receiver? What about the aluminum upper? Why are we so concerned with the aluminum on a shotgun but not our AR-15s? The Mossberg has a better combat safety. All riot guns should have a tang safety. You may want to replace the switch with a metal one as some have complained about breakage. Also, there was someone on here that claimed his leo friend had pulled the trigger group out of the receiver by pulling the trigger. I've not heard of any other reports of this.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:11:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tailgate: As for Poodleshooters comments...rust doesn't occur instantly, so if your steel guns rust its because you are not taking care of them properly. If it's raining and you have your gun out in it, you need to clean that baby when the day is done. Period.
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Spoken like someone who doesn't canoe several miles in the rain to hunt geese. When I get done hunting, the geese get attention first, so rust can definitely happen, even with WD40 on hand. With my Mossberg, the aluminum receiver is one less piece that can rust. Aluminum is good enough for the AR, it's good enough for my Mossberg. Nothing like a good ole 870 vs. 500 pissing contest [:P]
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:11:16 AM EDT
I've seen Mossbergs malfunction (Oh, I just love that "round chambered, safety off, trigger not working" one), I've seen Mossbergs break (safety come loose, stock crack in the wrist, trigger assembly disintegrate), but I've NEVER seen a Remington malfunction or break! Being a sometime Trap shooter, I've been known to put a lot of lead downrange too.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:14:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:28:53 AM EDT
I just picked up a Remington 870 a few weeks ago. My first shotgun. It was on sale at Sports Authority for 219 and since it was the display model, I got 10% off. Then there was also the 25 dollar Remington rebate. I feel I got it for free. I'm a lefty and I have had no trouble shooting this shotgun. A few weeks ago I posted wondering if I would have a problem. Nope.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:32:20 AM EDT
"As for Poodleshooters comments...rust doesn't occur instantly, so if your steel guns rust its because you are not taking care of them properly. If it's raining and you have your gun out in it, you need to clean that baby when the day is done. Period." --tailgate as for this statement i will take issue with it. i had and 11-87 special purpose with the matte finish. i was careful to wipe the gun down with oil after cleaning it. gun was never abused, used for clays and other summertime shooting activities (never out in the rain). after putting the gun into its case, within a month or so a very fine, yet thick layer of rust would appear on the steel reciever. happened without fail, i got so sick and tierd of it i traded it for a benelli (with an aluminum reciever). have never regreated that descision. sloth
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:42:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1: Mossberg 590A1 is the only shotgun to pass military testing thats 5,000 00 buckshot with out a stoppage. This is the Shotgun that is also issued to the Navy Seals and most other military.
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Yeah, the SEALs were issued the 590s but JUNKED them and got their old 870s back! There is a thread on this in the SEAL forum at www.tacticalforums.com. SEALs weren't to fond of 590s. Rem 870Ps are indestructible. I've used both under field conditions and prefer the 870. I've had three 590s that failed. One wouldn't extract, one wouldn't feed right, and one would bind when cycled. Most LEAs are acquiring carbines and are using shotguns for less lethal. The military is using them mainly for breaching(combat units, not security). Rangers use Rem 870. If you are going to baby the weapon and just shoot it at the range, then go ahead and get a Mossberg. You probably won't notice the difference. Blackwater Lodge instructors use 870s to teach their shotgun course.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:45:36 AM EDT
Owning both a 590A1, and an 870P, I would say you could count on either. However, I would also recomend the Benelli, my favorite, with my 1187 Scattergun K9 a close second! [%)]
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:48:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sloth: as for this statement i will take issue with it. i had and 11-87 special purpose with the matte finish. i was careful to wipe the gun down with oil after cleaning it. gun was never abused, used for clays and other summertime shooting activities (never out in the rain). after putting the gun into its case, within a month or so a very fine, yet thick layer of rust would appear on the steel reciever. happened without fail, i got so sick and tierd of it i traded it for a benelli (with an aluminum reciever). have never regreated that descision. sloth
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That is because you aren't supposed to store your weapons in a case. That's kind of like saying: "Every damn time I eat food, I have to take a crap the next day. So I stopped eating food! Ha! I'll show them."
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 10:21:19 AM EDT
...as not to try and sound sarcastic...where would you recommend keeping a firearm? what is wrong with keeping a gun in a gun case? perhapse to keep my 11-87 from rusting i should have had it an an argon filled vault at 60 F. i've NEVER had this problem with any other gun, so why should i treat this 11-87 any differently? i still do not understand what is wrong with a gun case. sloth
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 10:47:06 AM EDT
How much do older 870's go for? I'm looking for one (a beater will do) to send in to WC/Scattergun Technologies for their $189 Remington Steal rebuild (which is why I don't care if it's a beater. I'd add WC's shotgun sights and side saddle carrier later as they're the only thing I'd want that's not included in the package. Or maybe I'm just better off getting a new 18" barreled 870.... Anyone have any opinion on this?
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 11:16:01 AM EDT
I think I've been down this road before......... Both are good shotguns. I prefer the Mossberg over the Remington for one major reason. I have shot hundreds of rounds a day out of both. The remingtons in out inventory(870) have a tendency to get too "tight" after 7-8 rapid fire strings. It feels like the steel is heating and causing things to bind. I have not seen this with their automatics though.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 1:28:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By david_r: Don, you have it backwards. Aluminum conducts much better than steel. It heats up faster AND cools down faster. It also dissapates heat faster.
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A previous poster said that aluminum was one of the [i]least[/i] conductive metals. Perhaps it was a typo, and he meant [i]most[/i].
Originally Posted By david_r: The Mossberg has a better combat safety. All riot guns should have a tang safety.
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I have to agree. I have an 870, and love it except for the safety. Of course, I'm also left handed, which makes it that much worse.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 1:48:55 PM EDT
First, if you already have the 500, you're good to go. Having said that I do prefer the 870's, but it's just personal preference. As to the case storage debate, they sell silicon "socks" specifically for the purpose of case storing guns. I've stored them in case for years on end without them and the only one to ever rust has been a very old Winchester 410 break action. That gun may have already had a little surface rust though since it came from my gradfather's garage in Florida. I have an Express HD that has been wet, dirty, and case stored (after cleaning) and it has never rusted. I also have an old (but mint) Wingmaster that has seen the worst conditions duck and deer hunting can throw at it, and it has never rusted either. To me rust is a non-issue. If money's tight, buy ammo for the 500 and don't worry - it will go bang if needed.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 1:59:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DonS: A previous poster said that aluminum was one of the [i]least[/i] conductive metals. Perhaps it was a typo, and he meant [i]most[/i].
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So he did. Mea Culpa
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 9:42:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2001 9:47:21 PM EDT by Ramses]
Keep the 500, add an 870 if you wish - both excellent for the price. I've had both and currently have two 500's - a factory [green]c[/green][black]a[/black][brown]m[/brown][green]o[/green] with 24" ported barrel for turkey, and an old beater New Haven 600 that I change barrels, stocks, etc. on when the mood and needs strike. I was going to have my 870 express camo'ed, but found the turkey gun at Wally World for $10 more than the camo job would have cost me. I've since sold the 870 for what I had in it, so the camo job and turkey choke cost me a net of $45 (and I didn't have to buy a shorter barrel). I only wish Mossberg would stock the 18.5" barrels in the [green]c[/green][black]a[/black][brown]m[/brown][green]o[/green] as well.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 10:13:42 PM EDT
I have both - like both. I think the 590A1 gives you the most for your money. Tyler
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 10:24:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2001 10:44:50 PM EDT by slt223]
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By slt223: Not to get too technical, but the specific heat of aluminum is MUCH higher than that of steel. This makes aluminum one of the least conductive metals there is, so I would doubt that any mossberg malfunction is due to an over heated receiver.
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If aluminum does not conduct heat as well, doesn't that mean it will tend to heat up more?
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Styrofoam doesn't conduct thermal energy well either, that's why it is often used to contain coffee. If a wire is made of a substance that is a poor conductor does that mean electricity can flow through it with more voltage loss, or less voltage loss? Because the wire is a poor conductor it would tranfser less voltage.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 10:40:18 PM EDT
Specific heat of Al: .88J/g " " of steel: .483J/g Both @23 degrees C What am I missing? If AL has a higher specific heat that steel doesn't that mean it takes longer to heat up and cool down? The specific heat of water is around 4.something J/g(?)...if memory serves me right..and water takes for ever to heat up and cool down compared to almost all metals. So wouldn't Al, having a higher specific heat than steel, take longer to becomeheat soaked"? Perhaps I stand to learn something here. If my figures are wrong someone please correct me, as I would like to know.
Link Posted: 9/19/2001 11:37:58 PM EDT
For the SHTF scenario, I can put magazine extension tube on to the Rem870 to increase the magazine capacity. I believe the 19"BBL you can add an additional 3 2 3/4" shells, and the 26-38"BBLs, and 5 shell extension tube for a total of 10 shells in the mag. Can you do that with a Moss 500?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 1:22:58 PM EDT
26"-38" seems like an awful lot of barrel for a SHTF situation.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:34:15 PM EDT
Back to the case storage question, I guess it needs to be specified what do you mean by case. In my post I was referring to a [b]carry[/b] case. Not a case like a gun cabinet or safe. A gun stored long term in a soft "carry" case is at a high risk of rusting, unless it is oiled regularly. I have stored some that way though and they did not rust with one exception. In a cabinet type of case, of course, it is not an issue. In fact, it is even less an issue in a cabinet than a really tightly sealed safe, unless precautions are taken. As to compatability of accessories for the Express line, the only issue is that to add a mag extension, you have to get rid of a tiny little dimple on the inside of the original mag tube. This dimple will interfere with the follower when a high cap tube is added. Otherwise, they are different in finish and stocks only and the stocks are interchangeable.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:35:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By slt223: 26"-38" seems like an awful lot of barrel for a SHTF situation.
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You may not need 26-28" for SHTF situations, but just the fact that you can. It would be tough to swing because of the wieght, but it can be done. Can you imagine an 11/87 with a 10 shot mag tube?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:36:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JacRyan: How much do older 870's go for? I'm looking for one (a beater will do) to send in to WC/Scattergun Technologies for their $189 Remington Steal rebuild (which is why I don't care if it's a beater. I'd add WC's shotgun sights and side saddle carrier later as they're the only thing I'd want that's not included in the package. Or maybe I'm just better off getting a new 18" barreled 870.... Anyone have any opinion on this?
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If you can get a really good deal on the used 870, that's a good approach. However you can get an Express HD which has the 18" barrel already for around $250 new. Add the price of the sights and any other accesories you want and see how that compares.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 4:59:35 PM EDT
Both are great guns. I prefer mossberg, though. They are a little easier to unload than the 870's I have handled. As for 10 shot tubes on a 28in barrel: 1. mag extensions comprimise reliability 2. moss. 590's have a 8+1 capacity with a 20in barrel (why bother w/ mag extension) 3. All the extra weight in front totally ruins the functioning of a CQB shotgun. If you need that many rounds on tap, use an AR
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:13:31 PM EDT
The deal with cases is this.. the case will soak up the oil and leave the firearm dry. It's kind of like wrapping a pistol in toilet paper for a while. Hello surface rust. This happens a lot with leather holsters. Cowboy type relic wheel guns should be stored outside the holster for this reason.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 5:49:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 6:00:00 PM EDT
Aluminum is the fourth-best material for thermal conductivity. Third is gold, copper second, then silver is tops. Common computer heatsinks use aluminum, more expensive ones use copper. Automotive radiators are usually made of copper, sometimes aluminum (or both) for the same reason (well, a radiator performs the same function as a heatsink, so I'm just repeating myself). Here's a good link: http://klbproductions.com/yogi/periodic/thermal.html In fact, bookmark that. The entire site is excellent and they let you sort the periodic table many different ways, such as density, melting point, boiling point, freezing point, and lots more. The way I understand it, there are two choices to keep something cool: surround, or make it, from something that sucks heat out of it real fast, or make the thing _itself_ of some material that has very poor thermal conductivity (in other words, it don't heat up at all). If you had a steel barrel liner surrounded by styrofoam, that would be bad, because the steel would heat up and the styrofoam would hold the heat in. But you could put aluminium around the steel liner (the aluminum would suck heat out of the steel liner and pass it to the atmosphere faster than styrofoam would, so to speak), or make the entire barrel itself out of styrofoam (no steel at all). Since styrofoam has lousy thermal conductivity, it won't get hot in the first place. (Well, it would, but it would take eons). All the heat would go out with the powder, bullet, and the extracted and ejected case (as well as the bolt). But, I'm not a rocket scientist, or even a weekend metallurgist, so someone with more knowledge might want to point out where I've put my foot in my mouth.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 6:23:26 PM EDT
I bought a well abused 590 at the big Lakeland gun show. I sent it to Mossberg with a letter that said simply FIX IT......and Send me a bill. Yeah they fixed it alright! They sent me a BRAND NEW 590 w/speedstock and heatshield. Oh yeah,they sent an invoice with it. The bottom line said N/C. I hope this influences your choice.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 7:23:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 7:40:53 AM EDT by 11BravoE5]
If you are going to get a Rem 870, do yourself a favor: spend the extra money and get a POLICE model! It is more than just finish and stocks(though those are important also); the 870P has heavier springs, a metal trigger guard, doesn't have the PC safety lock, and has cleaned up internals. All that on top of the superior parkerized finish, better stocks, and no mag tube dimples. One thing I don't like is Remington's GR sights. Get the bead sight model and have MMC GR sights silver soldered on (not GLUED ON like Scattergun Tech). Just wanted to add: 870P has a one piece barrel, as opposed to the Express two piece.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 7:54:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/21/2001 7:53:24 AM EDT by FatMan]
Originally Posted By 11BravoE5: Just wanted to add: 870P has a one piece barrel, as opposed to the Express two piece.
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2 piece barrel? I've got an 870 Express, and had the barrel off. It's one piece. Maybe yours is broken? [:O] Please explain. edited fer spellin'
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 7:55:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter:
are there compelling reasons to upgrade for a shtf situation?
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Yes, you'll need Remington's all steel receiver, so your shotgun can rust properly when it gets wet [;)]
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So what non-rusting metal have you replaced your AR15/Mossberg barrels and small parts with? A weapon rusts only when it is not receiving proper preventative maintenance. I have spend weeks in humid field environments with M16s, M4s, M249s, etc. and have never had one rust up on me due to diligence in PMCS.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 7:59:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FatMan:
Originally Posted By 11BravoE5: Just wanted to add: 870P has a one piece barrel, as opposed to the Express two piece.
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2 piece barrel? I've got an 870 Express, and had the barrel off. It's one piece. Maybe yours is broken? [:O] Please explain. edited fer spellin'
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The barrel extension and barrel are two pieces that are attached on the Express. On the 870P it starts off as one piece.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 8:01:40 AM EDT
Thanks! I'll look closer next time.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 8:07:23 AM EDT
I bought a 870 because i heard such good things and it started jamming on me,took it to be repaired and they basically tried to tell me i wasnt using it right.Ive had shotguns in my hands since i was 8.When u have to bang the butt on somthing to make it eject theres a problem.SO..i sold it and got a 500,put a cantilever rifled barrel on it and comenced to kick some major butt.Killed my biggest whitetail,scored 152 officially,plus a few more.Great gun has never done anything wierd at all.Im sure u can get a lemon with anything but confidence in your weapon means a lot to me.Im totally confident in my 500..
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