it has been really interesting to read over this page in the past week.  so many of you that claim your oposition to the fedearl government and its policies have become so ready to fight, die, and kill for it.  always remember, war is good, because of what they show you on tv.  just goes to show most of you have no care and no idea what goes on in the rest of the world until a fucking plane blows up in your backyard.  keep your heads in the sand long enough and your ass gets shot off.

free america now
13thMonkey

No one has said they want to die for the federal government.  People will put their lives on the line to protect our freedoms and way of life, not to mention our standard of living.  The federal government can be changed at the ballot box.  It is a result of our preferences and choices.

im not gonna put my life on the line because soccer moms want to drive surbubans, and people wanna play golf on sundays.  take a look at our society as a whole, it is nearly a mirror of the romans.  im not taking sides, im just trying to show that there is more than one side.

13thMonkey

Sure there are some...though I'd say much less on this board as compared to other demographics, and far less than the 51%+ that you claim.

And I'm curious how you measured the intents of our hearts...

forgive the use of the word "most" i know it was extreme.  but there are a good number, and a far greater number in other demographics.

13thMonkey

Nice to see some ass-webbers come on over.

I dislike the federal government. It's big and bloated. Its inefficiancy is probably is only good point (if they were more efficient they'd be a bigger threat to our freedom).

However, I have no patience for armchair patriots that somehow consider being a complete coward at a time of national crisis morally superior. At a time when the country needs to pull together the most, your type (and I do mean to say 'your type', because I want to make your tiny little brain fill with anger) comes along and tries to piss in the soup.

I say screw you. I've had enough with your crap. I'm not going to be polite any more. Our country is different than our politics. If someone foreign group attacks any part of america, they are attacking me. I don't care if it's neal boortz or hillary clinton. I don't care if they bomb berkley during a flower child sit in or dallas during a gun show. The people that died were my fellow americans. If fighting is necessary, it will be fighting to defend america, not any political party that's currently in office.

If you can't see that an attack on AMERICA is completely different than an internal political struggle, you're as dumb as your posts indicate.

That's probably one of the best posts I've yet seen on this topic.

dont you think it would be better for the public to assertain why we were attacked, before we blow a nation of the face of the earth.  i think you have me all wrong, im not tryin to downplay the tragedy that took place in ny and washington.  i wnat folks to look around a bit to prevent more human tragedy.  armchair patriot?  complete coward?  ass-webber?  how umm...er....vicious.  tell me man how much did it all cost, cause you sure as hell bought it.

free america now
13thMonkey

free america now

Sounds like an excuse for cowardice and laziness to me.

No.  It doesn't matter why at this point. AFTER we kill the bastards that did it, had a cup of coffee and a good roll in the hay, THEN we can think about why.

when did wastefulness and greed become a good thing, please enlighten me.

free america now
13thMonkey

I didn't buy anything. My love of this country came to me, free, over the years. It came with an understanding that promoting freedom and liberty is not a vice. And that pointing fingers and saying 'I told you so' is not a virtue.

Go away you smelly, ignorant, bad-spelling, no punctiation or capitalization using little troll.

teehee!

I see what you're saying though.  While it's nice to see the flag waving everywhere I go from state to state...like you implied, where were the flags before Sept. 11th?  On my street, before 9/11, there were only two of us flying the flag every day (in spite of the vile-evil homeowner's association).  On holidays, we got another dozen or so, but now the flags are everywhere.

And like you alluded to, in talking with people about what the US would do to respond/find those responsible, I've come across some who still don't understand why a person would ever take the life of another.  They said even if they came across the person responsible, they don't think they could kill them.  And no, they aren't a member of AR15.com

I'd probably be willing to fight and risk my life to protect the Constitution
the federal gov't comes and goes with each election, but the Constitution will (hopefully) always remain

I know this is probably a little extreme, but you have been so nice to share your opinion.

I have this vision of an Arab terrorist sitting behing his keyboard trying his best to stir up dissent in America.  Trying to break the unity of the American people so there can be no long term and decisive response.[-!-]

Robbie, a spark of intelligent life.  

13thMonkey

im am not an arabic terrorist, i am an american, who just wants to prevent further loss of life for nothing.

13thMonkey

im going to sleep now, in closing id like to say, that this whole fucking thing is a scam and a sham created by greed, power mongers, and fanatics for one sole purpose.  to make us (meaning humans) kill one another.  so sleep tight in your beds out there in zombieland.  and remember war is good, there is only one side to every coin, a book can be judged by its cover, and you can buy happiness.

13thMonkey

No, I do not believe that you are an Arabian terrorist.
But I do believe you are horribly naive. You stop just short of attempting to claim that this attack was brought about by our own government. It sounds as though you further believe that we should seek to change policy to prevent further attacks. If I am mistaken about your feelings on the issue feel free to correct me. However, if I am correct you haven't a clue about the motivations of terrorist or extremist groups and need to educate yourself before trying to offer sheltered opinions based on emotions and not on facts.

Don't Feed the Fucking Trolls!!!!!

Peace is for sissies!  Nuke the bastards!

Bradd

Monkey -

You suffer from a fairly common American delusion; everybody in the world thinks like I do.

What you fail to understand is that the issues go far beyond any simplistic "We should evaluate our position vis a vis the causation of the terrorist attack."

We are dealing with a cultural imperative that has been empowered by the continual lack of response on the part of the US to attacks on American interests. All that has happened in the past has convinced a certain segment of the world's population that the US is a schoolyard bully, that our concerns are not for the good of the world, and that we will back down at the first sign of serious disagreement.

Unfortunately for the people who planned the WTC attack, and fortunately for the US, this is no longer the case. This is not a case of "find a peaceful solution" or nonsensical "I feel your pain" politics. This is a situation where the US must respond in kind, but with overwhelming force that alerts anyone planning attacks of this kind in the future that to do so means you and your nation are not long for this world.

This isn't an issue about soccer moms driving suburbans, or any other overly simplistic claptrap. This is a situation where reality must rule. No theories, no junk science, no "kinder, gentler nation."

It is good to be loved, it is better to be feared, it's best to have a combination of both. When your parents spanked you for doing something dangerous, they were teaching you a life lesson. When parents sit their small children down and try to explain to them why thier behavior is unacceptable, the children tune them out. They learn that their actions have no consequences. And few children have the moral imperative to understand what their parents were trying to teach them, up to the point where they are responsible for children themselves. Then suddenly they understand.

Sometimes it is painful to be a parent, but we need to be that parent to the orphans who are attacking us. Go in to the countries that support and sponsor these terrorists (not just Afghanistan), kill anyone that points a gun at us, then help the survivors rebuild their nations. It worked pretty well for Japan and Germany.

This will build a world that my children (and yours) can be safe in. Appeasement has never been a successful political strategy; it has always led to greater death and destruction.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

DavidC, that is one of the best posts regarding all this shit I have read in a week.

Aviator  [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Troll.
[url]http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/troll.html[/url]

DavidC, and the others, very good posts.  You said exactly what I was going to write, and probably more concise and eloquent than I could have.

Plus, you saved me the ten minutes or so that it would have taken me to respond to that silly, spoiled little brat, 13thMonkey spanker.

War is not good, it is however, sometimes necessary.  
As Winston Churchill might say,
    "It is time to wage WAR!!!!!!"

13thMonkey  do you know anything about the Constitution?   This is the land of the free, home of the brave.  Not home of the wimp.  

You need to lisen to Banner, I think it is pined at the top of this forum.

And you think sitting around is going to solve anything? This is a classic example where lives must be lost to save others. Doing nothing and the number of lives lost to terrorism will continue. Sure, fighting it now will cost lives, but will also save lives in the future by deterring similar acts like this in the future.

This is amazing to me. And I expect better from you RikWriter.

So, let's kill 'em all, and later on determine if our actions were entirely justified??

NOT knowing the causitive factors may lead us into actions that are unjustified. Thereby killing Arab innocents, and motivating other Arabs, especially those that would NEVER normally consider such actions,  to kill more American civilians. Good idea - give them a REASON to hate us.

Hey, I am ALL for vaporizing those RESPONSIBLE. But determining "resposibility" DEMANDS looking at causitive factors.

What I see here is FAR too much blind rage venting itself.

garandman, I think you may have interpreted the context of Ricks post. (I do not pretend to speak for Rick but, like you, I usually expect more from him and more often than not agree with what he has to say.)
I read Monkey's post to say that we need to determine what we (Americans and American policy) did to motivate the attacks and what we can change to make them happy so it is not repeated. Rick simply responded the way we all feel, it does not matter what they think we did to deserve this their asses need to be fried. I do not think he meant we should just kill them all and let Alluh sort them out.

What's your major malfunction, Mark?  You REALLY DON'T KNOW YET if killing the people who planned the WTC strike is JUSTIFIED????
What do they HAVE to do to justify killing them, nuke YOUR city?



What part about "the bastards that DID IT" did you not understand, Mark?  I thought you were an English minor...was reading comprehension not a part of your minor?



On the contrary, it most certainly does NOT.  If the trail of evidence leads back to Usama Bin Laden and his cronies, I don't NEED to have him interviewed by Dan Rather and Dr Joyce Brothers to determine his motivations before we kill him.



What I see here is you being too self-righteous for your own good, and not bothering to think about what you're saying.

Rick, GM
boys stop fighting amongst ourselves and lets unite and tell monkey to go to hell.

Hey Monkey,
No love for the government here.  But lets say for the sake of argument; that we could make this into some anarchist utopia with no far overreaching gov.  DO YOU THINK THAT THEY WOULD LEAVE US ALONE?  Do we need the biggest military in the world? Probably not. But do I want to use it now while we can?  Absolutely!!

-CK

It was, as was logic.

Finding the "bastards that did it" is impossible to do WITHOUT looking at causitive factors. Especially if we wanna get 'em ALL. I'm NOT satisfied with JUST getting bin Laden.

And I reject the notion that we as a nation can't accomplish BOTH objectives at the same time. In fact, preventing WTC II, The Sequel,  DEMANDS we do both.

That's all I'm saying.

What I object to is SOME people painting me as unwilling to exact justice, SIMPLY because I want to see the big picture here.

In reality, seeing the big picture is what will enable us to exact justice most completely.

Post from 13thMonkey -

BullSh|t!!!By trying to show that there is any other side that must be considered other than the righteous fury of a free people who have been wantonly attacked during peacetime, [b]you are indeed taking sides.[/b]

'Not taking sides' my ass! How come you're not taking [u]our[/u] side?

Eric The(AnswerThat!)Hun[>]:)]

garandman, now you have me confused.
Are you suggeting that we look at our policies and consider changing them to placate someone else to prevent something like this in the future?

Along the same lines, I had a rather heated disscusion with a fellow worker the other day about placing blame. His though was that we force ourselves on other nations and so shouldn't be too surprised when they get angry. He went on to say that some countries resent us because we consume too much and have too much money. He thought it might be a good idea if we slash our standard of living and give some back to the world. I about blew a gasket! First off if those countries around the globe don't care for our culture, they don't have to let us in. They don't have to welcome our forigen investments. And they sure don't have to accept our foreign aid. If they don't like Mc Donalds, Burger King, and Pizzia Hut, let us know. Why sould we as a succesful, wealthy nation go back to a lesser way of life just to make some stone age countries happy. A strong and health America is good for the world wether they like it or not. Why the concern across the globe when the stock market slips? I confess to not knowing everything about global economics, but I do see lots of other countries stress when we have a slow down in the econamy. I had to leave the office for awhile before I said something that I would regret.  

I have ZERO desire to placate the Arabs.

What I AM saying is that we need to review ALL our foreign policy with the "What is BEST for America" mindset.

If we decide on a policy that is unfavorable to the Arabs that IS in Americas best interests, so be it.

But my fear is that we are putting American intersts secondary to siding with Israel, when Israel would NOT consider doing the same for the US.

If we change to a policy that is against israel that is in the BEST intersts of the US, AND that stops the terrorist activity ALSO, then that is a nice plus.

What I see is an unwillingness to look at our Israel policy at all. Given the last couple days, EVERYTHING needs to be on the table. EVERYTHING.

If we are gonna play protectorate over Israel, I want wide access to all their natural resources, just like we have over Puerto Rico.

And more than ANYTHING else, I want to STOP arming BOTH the Arabs and the Israelis, and then stepping in the middle to break up the fighting. For that EXACTLY describes our foreign policy over the last 20 years.

Some people would paint me as isolationist, which is the way to discredit the "America FIRST" mindset, WITHOUT doing the logically honest work of evaluating the arguments for "America FIRST.". I am NOT an isolationist. I believe we should have operatives covering the globe.  But I also believe we need to be thinking "America FIRST."

BTW - thank you for asking this question, and NOT trying to paint me one way or the other. And of course, everything I've said above DOES NOT preclude us from using bin Laden  et al as paving for our new middle east parking lot.

I believe your "friends" comments were Socialism masquerading as solutions to terrorism.

No offense to you or your "friend."

Mark, this whole Israel rant is nothing but a red herring. Usama Bin Laden is not interested in our relationship with Israel...at least, that is not his main focus.  He hates us because of our involvement with Saudi Arabia, both militarily and culturally.
And yes, it is damn well possible to find out who did this without finding out why first.

Another peace at any price useful idiot. Say goodnight Mr. Chamberlain

have to agree with Rik here.  it is entirely possible to find out the "who" without discerning the "whys".  it happens everyday in this country when we arrest, try, convict, sentence some bastard who broke the law.  "well, what about motivation?" you may ask.  "isn't that something that needs to be known for the case?"  in truth, no.  sometimes the true motivation just cannot be brought to light.  when means and opportunity are evident, and all the evidence points to one (or a group) of people, the "whys" are really unimportant.

if the "whys" are important, i'd like to ask this question:  assuming that the terrorists who did this had lived, and we knew without a doubt that they were guilty, would you require an answer to the question "why" before they were tried and sentenced?  would you let them go just because we couldn't answer that question?  what if they weren't going to tell us?  

the "why" is irrelevant.

You OBVIOUSLY haven't been watching the TV show "Law and Order "enuf.

EVERY criminal prosecution REQUIRES that MOTIVE be addressed. Without motive, MOST criminal prosecutions fall flat. MOTIVE, means and opportunity are ALL key to criminal justice. To exclude one of them is a step down the road to vigilatism. (sp?)


By skipping motive, we gut our supposed belief in the "rule of law" and proceed closer to BECOMING  that which we claim we wish to eradicate - those who simply identify somone they want to kill, and then proceed to do so.


In fact, motive is MOST IMPORTANT element of the criminal justice system. Pretty much EVERYONE has the means and opportunity to commit any crime imaginable. If means and opportunity is all you need to prosecute, look out baby. Yes - motive is KEY.






We're not "sentencing" these people. We are proceeding STRAIGHT to execution. These people are NOT gonna be taken alive.

And NOT that they shouldn't be executed. They should. But ONLY AFTER we get to the "WHY" of their actions. Else, we simply revert back to Sept 10, 2001.

Maybe we never DO get ot the WHY. But shouldn't we try????

Let me ask you a question - in THIS country, do we sentence a person as vigorously for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family as we do a career thief who steals for kicks?? No, we don't. And you know why?? Because we FIND OUT MOTIVE first. That is what civilized people do. They wanna know WHY before they proceed to execution.

Post from garandman -

Sure, garandman, you can keep on looking for motivation and the whys and the wherefores, while this country gets ready for a massive retaliation against the people responsible for this crime.

If there are any left alive, then we'll need your research for the prosecution of the trials that come afterwards.

We know who did it, we know how they did it, and we know why they did it!

[red]'It is sufficient!'[/red]

Eric The(TheTrialWillBecomeAnAntiUS-Anti-IsraelCircus,However)Hun[>]:)]

I'm not so sure we do.

History is destined to repeat itself.

Without understanding as to 'why' we can not prevent it in the future.

We seriously need to examine foreign policy here.  If any decision we make, any policy we follow, leads to innocent civilians (note that) getting killed, there is simply a better choice to be  made.

Still we can not stand idle with a bloody nose.  Surely we must strike back.  But we need to have an Exit Strategy.  That means knowing what we are going ot do when we are done delivering Hell.

Look farther than your sight picture.

Zaz

Totally wrong. This was not a crime, it was an act of WAR. When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, we didn't send Hawaii Five-Oh after them, we sent the damned Marines.

I am sure YOU don't, since you keep trying to tell us it was all about Israel.

Give this a read.  It is Bin Ladins decleration of war.
[url]http://msanews.mynet.net//MSANEWS/199610/19961012.3.html[/url]

He goes on and on about our presence in Saudi Arabia.