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Posted: 5/18/2005 10:07:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 4:34:42 PM EDT by DienBienPhu54]




neanderthal man



modern day aboriginal man

Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:10:16 PM EDT
Uh, ok.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 10:11:00 PM EDT by olyarms]
Makes no fucking sense.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:12:04 PM EDT
They need to start using some of that cloning technology to breed some Neanderthals. I want to see them play in the NFL !!!


Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:17:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 10:23:59 PM EDT by DienBienPhu54]
I wonder how much bigger and stronger a primitive Neanderthal man would be compared to modern man?

Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:18:06 PM EDT
I would say you are a Neanderthal man.

SGatr15
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:19:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DienBienPhu54:
I wonder how much bigger and stronger a primitive Neanderthal man would be compared to modern man?



The basics I heard were that the average Neandertal looked about like Arnold in his heyday.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:20:57 PM EDT
There was a Creationist Scientist that visited the middle school I went to (I went to a private school for about 3 years) that had an interesting theory on Neanderthals. I don't remember everything exactly but he said it's what humans would look like if they lived for hundreds of years as described in the Bible before the flood. Supposedly the atmosphere was completely different and had some sort of "canopy" that was able to sustain living organisms much better then the post flood atmosphere. He said that is why their brow bones were so pronounced. That is because your brow bone among other things never stops growing so over time it could theoretically look like on Neanderthals. I'm not saying I believe it and I left about 95% of what he said out because I don't remember. It was interesting nonetheless. There were alot of other theories he presented and some of them were very interesting although I don't really know what I thought about alot of them.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:22:38 PM EDT
Hey SIG_220, what was that guy smoking when he told you that stuff?

SGatr15
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:27:08 PM EDT
I don't know. I'm just posting what he said not what I think. I have a BS in Zoology Biomedical Sciences but I still find stuff like that interesting.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:31:54 PM EDT




cromagnon man looks the closest to a modern man
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:33:47 PM EDT
'Give him a shave and a haircut and you'd think he was tough looking, but you wouldn't object to him marrying your sister' - Michael Crighton
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:33:53 PM EDT
What if Neanderthal Man fought Mothra?
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:37:23 PM EDT
Neanderthal Man represents a parallel evolution of humanoid creatures. We did not evolve from Neanderthal Man. He is just another 'branch' of the evolutionary 'tree.'
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:41:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2005 10:42:41 PM EDT by SIG_220]

Originally Posted By Ardenner:
Neanderthal Man represents a parallel evolution of humanoid creatures. We did not evolve from Neanderthal Man. He is just another 'branch' of the evolutionary 'tree.'



That's about the only thing I can remember from Intro Anthropology. Those guys had some big honkin teeth. The skull model my Professor brought to class was amazing looking.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:46:47 PM EDT
I find all these "artists conceptions" hillarious.

Link Posted: 5/18/2005 11:11:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
What if Neanderthal Man fought Mothra?




Neaderthal DID fight Mothra......thats why we are here......I thought you knew that.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 11:27:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
There was a Creationist Scientist that visited the middle school I went to (I went to a private school for about 3 years) that had an interesting theory on Neanderthals. I don't remember everything exactly but he said it's what humans would look like if they lived for hundreds of years as described in the Bible before the flood. Supposedly the atmosphere was completely different and had some sort of "canopy" that was able to sustain living organisms much better then the post flood atmosphere. He said that is why their brow bones were so pronounced. That is because your brow bone among other things never stops growing so over time it could theoretically look like on Neanderthals. I'm not saying I believe it and I left about 95% of what he said out because I don't remember. It was interesting nonetheless. There were alot of other theories he presented and some of them were very interesting although I don't really know what I thought about alot of them.



Not saying I'll go betting my salt on that one, but just for your own intrest you might want to look up theories on who the Nephelim were. Intresting stuff.

Link Posted: 5/18/2005 11:35:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DienBienPhu54:
www.bible.ca/tracks/ape-man-line-up.jpg

www.bbc.co.uk/beasts/evidence/prog6/images/evi_cromagnon_large.jpg

cromagnon man looks the closest to a modern man



Stop it already...

Cro-Magnon was a modern Homo sapiens sapiens.

Neandertal was Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, a relative of Homo sapiens sapiens.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 11:36:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ardenner:
Neanderthal Man represents a parallel evolution of humanoid creatures. We did not evolve from Neanderthal Man. He is just another 'branch' of the evolutionary 'tree.'



Correct.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 11:51:32 PM EDT
So, did the Neanderthals die off or did we interbreed with them. I swear I have seen folks with prominent brow ridges who have a little "N" in their DNA.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 12:10:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 1:52:03 AM EDT
Neanderthals were short, stubby guys. It would be like fighting a guy with Down syndrome. Lotta strength, but nothing between the ears. I'd say Neanderthal takes the early advantage in a fight, but loses gas shortly after that and gets choked out by modern man (who has access to performance-enhancing drugs).
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 3:06:07 AM EDT
I remember argueing with someone here about Neaderthal man, he claimed it was cause they were humans who had 'rickets' whole familys living together and a whole continent who had rickets . And it seems that only europeans (neanderthals) had rickets, neither Africans, Asians or anyone else just THEM! What dummies they are! Oh yeah and when I asked him what happened to all the Dinosaurs that left the ark(cause they were on the ark don't you know!) He threw out like 10 "excuses" lets see, meteor storm, lack of food, disease from all the dead corpses, LA LAH-LA LA LA LA LA!! totally looney tunes!
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:27:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShadowOne:
Neanderthals were short, stubby guys. It would be like fighting a guy with Down syndrome. Lotta strength, but nothing between the ears. I'd say Neanderthal takes the early advantage in a fight, but loses gas shortly after that and gets choked out by modern man (who has access to performance-enhancing drugs).



Interesting thing is the cranial cavity for Neanderthals is actually bigger than that of modern humans.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:30:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By theliberating1:
lifewithalacrity.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/evolution.jpg



Missing the "shaved head and bling-bling" man
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:31:29 AM EDT
Let me be the first to ask: What's the best round to use aganist Neaderthal Man???
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:40:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 7:40:47 AM EDT by Lectric]
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 7:48:04 AM EDT
DBP54 -

If you extend that comparison to the modern day black man, you can call yourself a follower of Charles Darwin.



That's what Darwin said - the modern black man is a less evolved form of the white man.

(Tho I would advise NOT telling Mike Tyson about yours and Darwins little theory. )

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:07:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 9:35:21 AM EDT by DienBienPhu54]

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
So, did the Neanderthals die off or did we interbreed with them. I swear I have seen folks with prominent brow ridges who have a little "N" in their DNA.



some modern people still have the Neanderthal physical characteristics





Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:11:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:
There was a Creationist Scientist that visited the middle school I went to...

... Supposedly the atmosphere was completely different and had some sort of "canopy" that was able to sustain living organisms much better then the post flood atmosphere...



Oh, you mean THIS guy:


Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:49:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jkstexas2001:
So, did the Neanderthals die off or did we interbreed with them. I swear I have seen folks with prominent brow ridges who have a little "N" in their DNA.



Displaced by the more successful species.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 8:53:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
DBP54 -

If you extend that comparison to the modern day black man, you can call yourself a follower of Charles Darwin.



That's what Darwin said - the modern black man is a less evolved form of the white man.

(Tho I would advise NOT telling Mike Tyson about yours and Darwins little theory. )




Funny I don't remember reading that in The Descent of Man or Origin of Species. Got a page number?
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:06:28 AM EDT
Actually the "racist" evolutionary theory went like this, Asians are decended from Orangatans, Because they are found in Asia and have "orangish" skin, White men are decended from Chimpanses because they're sorta white skinned animals with brown hair, and finally Black people are decended from Gorillas because they have black skin are much physically larger but a smaller brain. This was one of the kookier Evolutionary thoeries of the 1850's just after Darwins book came out. It was proven of course to be totally false.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:44:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-stox:
Actually the "racist" evolutionary theory went like this, Asians are decended from Orangatans, Because they are found in Asia and have "orangish" skin, White men are decended from Chimpanses because they're sorta white skinned animals with brown hair, and finally Black people are decended from Gorillas because they have black skin are much physically larger but a smaller brain. This was one of the kookier Evolutionary thoeries of the 1850's just after Darwins book came out. It was proven of course to be totally false.



Yes but it wasn't a theory of Darwin himself.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:55:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ShadowOne:
Neanderthals were short, stubby guys. It would be like fighting a guy with Down syndrome. Lotta strength, but nothing between the ears. I'd say Neanderthal takes the early advantage in a fight, but loses gas shortly after that and gets choked out by modern man (who has access to performance-enhancing drugs).



I smell a reality show!
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:05:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 11:06:12 AM EDT by ShadowOne]

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By ShadowOne:
Neanderthals were short, stubby guys. It would be like fighting a guy with Down syndrome. Lotta strength, but nothing between the ears. I'd say Neanderthal takes the early advantage in a fight, but loses gas shortly after that and gets choked out by modern man (who has access to performance-enhancing drugs).



Interesting thing is the cranial cavity for Neanderthals is actually bigger than that of modern humans.



The first computers took up the space of an entire room. Today's can be held in your hand and are more powerful. It's the wiring of the brain, not the mass, that is important. Having a huge head just requires more energy to maintain. More chance for tumors as well.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:14:49 AM EDT
Anybody got pics of "ARFCOM Man"?

CW
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:24:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG_220:

Originally Posted By ShadowOne:
Neanderthals were short, stubby guys. It would be like fighting a guy with Down syndrome. Lotta strength, but nothing between the ears. I'd say Neanderthal takes the early advantage in a fight, but loses gas shortly after that and gets choked out by modern man (who has access to performance-enhancing drugs).



Interesting thing is the cranial cavity for Neanderthals is actually bigger than that of modern humans.



Actually they werent.

The very first skeleton found in the Neander Valley in the 1880's had ricketts and osteo-arthritus and may have been in his 60's! He had bent legs, a bent back, and a broken arm that had healed crooked.

The average of the Neanderthal male skeletons found so far is right around 6 feet.

Meaning that on average they were about 4 inches taller than a modern Human

One thing about them, at least from the skeletons recovered so far is that the Neanderthal size range was a lot narrower than Homo Sapiens. A modern Human can be anywhere from 5 foot tall to six and a half feet tall and still be "normal" Recovered Neanderthal males all cluster within 4 inches either side of six feet.

Judging by their long bones, Neaderthals were MASSIVELY strong. They may have been close to being as powerful pound for pound as chimpanzees or gorillas are. If any of you remember back a few months to the articles about the guy in California who was mauled by the two "tame" chimpanzees at a animal sanctuary- think about that kind of power on a six foot frame.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:27:04 AM EDT
M. Creighton's "eaters ot the dead" is a (supposedly true) tale based on the last interactions of modern man and Neandertals. Great read.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:47:35 AM EDT
You guys wonder where they went?

Hmmm. They did just fine in Europe for 1000s of years. Lived right through an Ice Age there. No problemo.

And then, modern man arrived. Strangely enough the Neandethals disappeared right around the appearance of modern man.

Now, one could believe that the change in temperature killed them off.

I'm a big fan of the theory that our European ancestors wiped them off the face of the earth. The first case of genocide and successfully done as well.

They did not intermarry nor did they survive. There aren't any good hiding places left. Unless one considers bigfoot.



Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:53:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 12:07:08 PM EDT by California_Kid]

Originally Posted By SNorman:
I find all these "artists conceptions" hillarious.



I am a big fan of Chesley Bonestell, the father of modern space painting.



Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:56:31 AM EDT
Modern man is the ultimate killing machine, we are the product of 4.5 billion years of "survival of the fittest."
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 12:05:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 12:08:11 PM EDT by California_Kid]

Originally Posted By garandman:
...
That's what Darwin said - the modern black man is a less evolved form of the white man.



garandman,

Have you ever read The Descent of Man?


CHAPTER III.

COMPARISON OF THE MENTAL POWERS OF MAN AND THE LOWER ANIMALS.

WE HAVE seen in the last two chapters that man bears in his bodily structure clear traces of his descent from some lower form; but it may be urged that, as man differs so greatly in his mental power from all other animals, there must be some error in this conclusion. No doubt the difference in this respect is enormous, even if we compare the mind of one of the lowest savages, who has no words to express any number higher than four, and who uses hardly any abstract terms for common objects or for the affections,* with that of the most highly organised ape. The difference would, no doubt, still remain immense, even if one of the higher apes had been improved or civilised as much as a dog has been in comparison with its parent-form, the wolf or jackal. The Fuegians rank amongst the lowest barbarians; but I was continually struck with surprise how closely the three natives on board H. M. S. Beagle, who had lived some years in England, and could talk a little English, resembled us in disposition and in most of our mental faculties. If no organic being excepting man had possessed any mental power, or if his powers had been of a wholly different nature from those of the lower animals, then we should never have been able to convince ourselves that our high faculties had been gradually developed. But it can be shewn that there is no fundamental difference of this kind. We must also admit that there is a much wider interval in mental power between one of the lowest fishes, as a lamprey or lancelet, and one of the higher apes, than between an ape and man; yet this interval is filled up by numberless gradations. Nor is the difference slight in moral disposition between a barbarian, such as the man described by the old navigator Byron, who dashed his child on the rocks for dropping a basket of sea-urchins, and a Howard or Clarkson; and in intellect, between a savage who uses hardly any abstract terms, and a Newton or Shakespeare. Differences of this kind between the highest men of the highest races and the lowest savages, are connected by the finest gradations....



www.online-literature.com/darwin/descent_man/3http://www.online-literature.com/darwin/descent_man/3

Link Posted: 5/19/2005 12:19:41 PM EDT
Why the hell didn't modern man keep neanderthal women around as pets and stuff?
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 12:21:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 12:29:17 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:
You guys wonder where they went?

Hmmm. They did just fine in Europe for 1000s of years. Lived right through an Ice Age there. No problemo.

And then, modern man arrived. Strangely enough the Neandethals disappeared right around the appearance of modern man.

Now, one could believe that the change in temperature killed them off.

I'm a big fan of the theory that our European ancestors wiped them off the face of the earth. The first case of genocide and successfully done as well.

They did not intermarry nor did they survive. There aren't any good hiding places left. Unless one considers bigfoot.






DNA on teeth from the youngest Neaderthal's found, from Spain c25,000ybp, show that they are not related to any living groups of humans.

It looks like what happened here was the same thing that had happened a couple million years earlier in Africa, with the Austrolopithicines. The family divided into a "robust" and a "gracile" branch. The gracile brance (barring some surpirse discovery) appears to have evolved into the Homo family. The "robust" Austrolopithicines stayed in Africa and eventually died out, though exactly when and why is still up in the air-much like determining the cause of Neanderthals demise.

Neanderthals, were the Robust variation of the Homo line, but wether they came from the oldest Homo, Homo Habilis (the first tool maker so far only found in East Africa) or from the later Homo Erectus (which has now been found everywhere except the Americas and Austrailia) has not yet been determined.

A interesting monkey wrench thrown into all this is the recently announced discovery of the dwarf human Homo Floresenses in the Flores Islands of Indonisia. Fossil proof that that Darwins old observation of how a population in isolation will adapt to the local conditions. In their case a population of Homo Erectus that were isolated on these islands grew smaller as conditions favored those individuals who could get by with less food. Resulting in a population of Hominids that were only around 3 feet tall and 60-80 pounds.

Did the same thing happen when a population of Erectus got cut off by ice flows in Europe- only in reverse? Selection pressure for living amongst the mega-fauna like mammoth, mastadon, cave bear, dire wolf, and saber tooth cats (as well as also living with the large, dangerous game like rhino, hippo, bison, wolf, lion, tiger ect that still hang on today) produced a physical super-human?

One thing though, modern man and Neaderthal man co-existed in Europe for a good 25,000 years. They did not just "suddenly" disappear. Eventually they were weeded out, but it did not happen instantly upon the arrival of modern man- if it had been it would be comparitively easy do deduce the cause of disapperence. Like here in America, the oldest evicence of modern Humans here is 13,000 ybp in Nebraska. And by 10,000ybp the mega fauna were gone from the Americas. That STRONGLY points to human cause- since the rate of dying was faster than the rate the glaciers were withdrawing. But there is no such quick jump in the fossil record in Europe.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 1:15:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 1:25:42 PM EDT by DienBienPhu54]




notice the low cranium of Neanderthal man? he appears to have some simian or ape like traits...

modern humans do share 99% of DNA with gorrilas / apes but that doesnt mean we decended from them, it just means we share a common ancestor
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 1:25:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 1:41:22 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]

Originally Posted By DienBienPhu54:
webpages.charter.net/modtv/neal4.jpg

www.evolutionnyc.com/ImgUpload/P_488177_513311.jpg

notice the low cranium of Neanderthal man? he appears to have some simian or ape like traits...



The top image is not accurate. Its based on the old, erroneous, "stooping" reconstruction.
,
Neanderthals body type fit within the range of modern humans- though on the large end. The skull is the major difference, it does have a different shape. The brain volume is actually at the high end of the range for modern humans. But the shape of the skull means that volume had to have been organized differently.

Here is a interesting article showing that its primarily Late Modern humans who have the smaller faces and rounder heads-
www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/100/14/8142#SEC2

There are differences in the internal structure of the long bones, but that would not be visible from the outside.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 1:33:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 1:34:10 PM EDT by DienBienPhu54]




modern human skull compared to a Neanderthal skull
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 1:51:06 PM EDT
There has been some speculation that There was some interbreeding between "modern" man and neanderthals. Some possible evidence of this was dug up in Spain I believe, and consisted of what appeared to have been Hybrids between the two. Another prevailing theory is that the differing hunting techniques and lifestyles allowed for Cro-mags to be more effective at the harvest of game, while the innefficient methods of Neanderthals slowly became the demise of them as the climate changed.

Personally, having done some reasearch on prehistorical societies, I have come to the conclusion that the past is alot more dynamic than most believe and that there are as many possible stages in our evolution as there are individuals. I cannot discount the possibility of interbreeding because of the current propensity of our species to bang anything that moves. I cannot discount a genocide of sorts because we are pretty good at that too, and I cannot discount out competing Neanderthals, because our competitive nature is one of the hallmarks of our survival thus far. More than likely there was plenty of each and possibly other instances that we have not accounted for .
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 2:04:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
There has been some speculation that There was some interbreeding between "modern" man and neanderthals. Some possible evidence of this was dug up in Spain I believe, and consisted of what appeared to have been Hybrids between the two. Another prevailing theory is that the differing hunting techniques and lifestyles allowed for Cro-mags to be more effective at the harvest of game, while the innefficient methods of Neanderthals slowly became the demise of them as the climate changed.

Personally, having done some reasearch on prehistorical societies, I have come to the conclusion that the past is alot more dynamic than most believe and that there are as many possible stages in our evolution as there are individuals. I cannot discount the possibility of interbreeding because of the current propensity of our species to bang anything that moves. I cannot discount a genocide of sorts because we are pretty good at that too, and I cannot discount out competing Neanderthals, because our competitive nature is one of the hallmarks of our survival thus far. More than likely there was plenty of each and possibly other instances that we have not accounted for .



There are some who still hold to the interbreeding theory. But Penn States DNA testing of those same Spanish finds, as well as others from Croatia and Palistine, just don't show any mDNA commonality. Granted it was a small sample, (they had to have teeth to sample) and they could only search for mDNA (the only thing that survives that long we can test for). The odds are pretty long that Penn States work will be overturned. If there were hybreds, it would be more likely that it was from two groups living closely togeather for some time who over several generations collected a number of individuals who were hybred-and sterile. Think horse/donkey/mule.

If you got PDF here is a recent article on the work of studying Ancient DNA:
myweb.tiscali.co.uk/henry/Articles/Ancient%20DNA%20comes%20of%20age.pdf
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